Old 07-6-2018, 06:34 PM   #1
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Default Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

I'm currently working on adding a few more metrics to the extended statistics of every files, with the help of PrawnSkunk to validate and integrate those to the website. I'm reaching out to everyone who has some knowledge in machine learning and maths.

The first stats I finished coding are the NPS (split just like the current total nps by different timeframes like .3s, .5s, 1s, 2s, etc.) for individual receptors (left, down, up, right). My intuition is that a 4 NPS section like [1,2,3,4] vs [1,1,1,1] have absolutely different difficulties, the latter being much more difficult. So, do you think that those + the total NPS would give a significant entropy gain (or any equivalent depending on the model) in computing the difficulties of the files ?

Any ideas/questions appreciated.
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Old 07-6-2018, 07:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

Could you factor in the occurrence of certain types of notes during sequences? Just as an example, a 20 nps section of single note streams is probabaly much harder than a 20 nps section of dense js where every other note is a jump, so maybe you could find some ratio of single notes to jumps etc

Obviously 4 nps of repeated jacks is harder than 4 nps of a roll etc, but there's also things like 20 nps of streams that are rolly are generally easier than 20 nps of streams with lots of ohts
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Old 07-6-2018, 07:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

I'd be interested to see its results. I would think that there would be three basic pattern difficulties - NPS, jacks, and predominately one handed patterns. The coding would have to be able to read a song like club, which has a max NPS of only 16 but is considered a 75 currently. I would also think a song should get a bump in difficulty if it alternates between all three of those categories, or combines them, instead of just focusing on one. (I think its part of the reason "Southern Cross" has seen such a drop in its recognized difficulty - modern stepcharts are much more likely to mix in more variety of complex patterns over just having speed).

There are certain charts I've always felt were underrated, and if you had a draft program sometime, I'd give you a short list to test.
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Old 07-6-2018, 07:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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Originally Posted by Dinglesberry View Post
Could you factor in the occurrence of certain types of notes during sequences? Just as an example, a 20 nps section of single note streams is probabaly much harder than a 20 nps section of dense js where every other note is a jump, so maybe you could find some ratio of single notes to jumps etc
Hmmm, what you're saying is that [1, {2,3}, 4] in 1 second is harder than [1, 2, 3, 4], am I correct ? Rebember that if you have the same nps, the gap between {1} and {23} in js will be bigger than the one between {1}, {2} and {3} in pure stream. If you do believe that the former is more difficult, could you please elaborate on why ?

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Obviously 4 nps of repeated jacks is harder than 4 nps of a roll etc, but there's also things like 20 nps of streams that are rolly are generally easier than 20 nps of streams with lots of ohts
Those would also be taken into account with the per-receptor nps ! for example, if you have a stream like [1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2 ,3 ,4] over 2 seconds, all receptors will have the same max nps of 1. On the other hand, if you have [1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 4] on 2 seconds, all receptors will have a max nps of 2 !

Thanks for your questions
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Old 07-6-2018, 07:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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I'd be interested to see its results. I would think that there would be three basic pattern difficulties - NPS, jacks, and predominately one handed patterns. The coding would have to be able to read a song like club, which has a max NPS of only 16 but is considered a 75 currently. I would also think a song should get a bump in difficulty if it alternates between all three of those categories, or combines them, instead of just focusing on one. (I think its part of the reason "Southern Cross" has seen such a drop in its recognized difficulty - modern stepcharts are much more likely to mix in more variety of complex patterns over just having speed).

There are certain charts I've always felt were underrated, and if you had a draft program sometime, I'd give you a short list to test.
I don't have access to ffr's files so I'm a bit limited right now for the tests (I need to convert sm files, which I havent done yet). I'll post an update if I get more stuff to test.

For the one handed, I was already thinking about adding the same kind of nps splits but with left hand and right hand, so all {1} or {2}, and all {3} or {4}. That was the one handed trilling bias would be accounted for in the metrics, along with jumpjacks on single hand.

EDIT: I kinda get what you mean with the alternating patterns, but I don't think I agree. Would you have any other examples for it so that I can check them out ? A metric of variety in patterns sounds pretty hard to define mathematically, although not impossible; it would still be computed by using some kind of normalized variance on the different nps metrics. For example, if the nps-per-receptor has definite peaks vs spread out progression vs constant nps, etc

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Old 07-6-2018, 07:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

What I think would be interesting is to get a few players together and make two chart with various patterns in it - one set of simpler patterns and one set with more complex patterns (jump jacks and handstream, etc).

Have each player submit scores on different rates of the chart and plot the decline in scores as the rate increases until they reach a point of just mashing. Use math then to determine the relative difficulty of certain patterns over others.

Using this method, you'd be able to compare "160 BPM handstream vs 190 BPM Jumpstream" for example, or "jumpstream with mini-jacks vs jumpstream without them." Using multiple players will help reduce player ability bias.
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Old 07-6-2018, 07:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

I meant more so like, denser jumpstream patterns, like suppose for example you had

2 (13) 2 (14)

As a pattern in jumpstream - in order to achieve the same nps with streams the patterns would be have to be faster since you don't have the double notes, but equally "difficult" streams would just be like, a 4 note one hand trill based on the pattern of js etc, but that wouldn't make up the same nps

Also consider a situation, a pattern that's just a jumptrill (12) (34) (12)... Is arguably the same difficulty as (1) (4) (1) (4) or even (12) (1) (12)... Despite different nps
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Old 07-6-2018, 08:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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Originally Posted by TheSaxRunner05 View Post
What I think would be interesting is to get a few players together and make two chart with various patterns in it - one set of simpler patterns and one set with more complex patterns (jump jacks and handstream, etc).

Have each player submit scores on different rates of the chart and plot the decline in scores as the rate increases until they reach a point of just mashing. Use math then to determine the relative difficulty of certain patterns over others.

Using this method, you'd be able to compare "160 BPM handstream vs 190 BPM Jumpstream" for example, or "jumpstream with mini-jacks vs jumpstream without them." Using multiple players will help reduce player ability bias.
The idea is good but there's one critical point that makes it not work: you have to extract all the patterns from a file, at various speeds. This is far from a trivial task and I do not think I can achieve such a model tbh. Your concept kinda goes in the direction of fully unsupervised with very few attributes to output some regression. It's not really doable I would think.
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Old 07-6-2018, 08:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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Originally Posted by Dinglesberry View Post
I meant more so like, denser jumpstream patterns, like suppose for example you had

2 (13) 2 (14)

As a pattern in jumpstream - in order to achieve the same nps with streams the patterns would be have to be faster since you don't have the double notes, but equally "difficult" streams would just be like, a 4 note one hand trill based on the pattern of js etc, but that wouldn't make up the same nps
I don't think you can compare [2, {13}, 2, {14}] with [2, 1 ,2, 1] at a faster speed, or I don't understand why you would ? An equivalent stream would rather be [2, 1, 3, 2, 1, 4] or [2, 3, 1, 2, 4, 1] at a faster speed.

Quote:
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Also consider a situation, a pattern that's just a jumptrill 1. (12) (34) (12)... Is arguably the same difficulty as 2. (1) (4) (1) (4) or even 3. (12) (1) (12)... Despite different nps
Here, example 1. and 2. would have the same nps-per-receptor, even though their total nps would be different by a factor of 2. So yes, the difficulty would remain similar. Idk about 3.
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Old 07-6-2018, 08:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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a 20 nps section of single note streams is probabaly much harder than a 20 nps section of dense js where every other note is a jump, so maybe you could find some ratio of single notes to jumps etc
I'd say the former is only marginally more difficult than the latter, at least at specifically 20nps. You're effectively comparing a 300bpm stream to 200bpm jumpstream with jumps every eighth. Putting aside patterning or any potential for stam drain and just trying to discern what's harder to maintain good PA on, I'd say the stream wouldn't be rated more than 5 points higher than the dense js, assuming the sections aren't drawn out for a long period of time.

At higher bpms the disparity in difficulty becomes a bit wider (e.g. 375 streaming pushes a speed threshold that 250 dense jumpstreaming doesn't quite match up with) but eventually you hit a point where they're both outside the realm of possibility to PA for almost everyone anyways (450 streaming vs 300 dense js etc.)
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Old 07-6-2018, 08:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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At higher bpms the disparity in difficulty becomes a bit wider (e.g. 375 streaming pushes a speed threshold that 250 dense jumpstreaming doesn't quite match up with) but eventually you hit a point where they're both outside the realm of possibility to PA for almost everyone anyways (450 streaming vs 300 dense js etc.)
That is very much depending on the patterns still. It the stream has for example [1, 2, 3, 2], the max nps on {2} will be high, and yes the difficulty will ramp up. The js can also be harder if it has anchors: [1, {23}, 1, {34}, 1 {24}], etc. I believe that judging the difficulty of files by their patterns, even if it seems intuitive, is the wrong way to go. Maybe I'm mistaken though, which is why this thread is up~
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Old 07-6-2018, 08:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

Yes with the latter part of my post you can assume the same as noted in the former, or better yet just a fairly equal note distribution for all four notes. Barring bullshit like anchors or one hand trills or patterning that trivializes the section almost entirely (like a giant roll), the stream would still likely have a slight edge in difficulty. I'd be willing to bet there's a considerably larger amount of D7+ players that can maintain better PA on 250 dense js over 375 streaming, despite equal nps.

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That is very much depending on the patterns still.
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I believe that judging the difficulty of files by their patterns, even if it seems intuitive, is the wrong way to go.
op ily but i'm very confused (and i disagree wholeheartedly with the second quote; many difficulty algorithms largely rooted in nps to calc difficulty failed because they couldn't account for wild difficulty swings for charts at the same bpm due to incredibly lenient or extremely abrasive patterning)

I want to say patashu's TS difficulty calc took into account receptor nps and the results were super memey, but maybe you'll do it better (or maybe I'm mistaken and it just involved nps as a whole)
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Old 07-6-2018, 09:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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Yes with the latter part of my post you can assume the same as noted in the former, or better yet just a fairly equal note distribution for all four notes. Barring bullshit like anchors or one hand trills or patterning that trivializes the section almost entirely (like a giant roll), the stream would still likely have a slight edge in difficulty. I'd be willing to bet there's a considerably larger amount of D7+ players that can maintain better PA on 250 dense js over 375 streaming, despite equal nps.
The thing is that you discard the "harder" and "easier" variations of patterns we know (streams, jumpstreams, etc) to keep some kind of middleground difficulty and you then generalize the comparison of said patterns by saying that overall, streams are harder than js at x fps. I'm not Totally refusing the idea, but the problem is that the middleground you speak of can be composed of such an large number of combinations that the comparision becomes subjective and hardly defined.

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op ily but i'm very confused (and i disagree wholeheartedly with the second quote; many difficulty algorithms largely rooted in nps to calc difficulty failed because they couldn't account for wild difficulty swings for charts at the same bpm due to incredibly lenient or extremely abrasive patterning)
It's ok to disagree ! My goal is to explain my ideas as best as I can, and discuss alternatives.

I just want to mention again that although I only talk about nps, there are Many metrics that can be extracted with that. What I mean with "judging with patterns" is any approach that tries to match hardcoded patterns in a file (kinda like a regex) and applies metrics to that; I believe it can never take into account every pattern and variation, as opposed to nps metrics that can model speed and hand bias in a way that englobes all possibilities.
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Old 07-6-2018, 09:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

I'm not home anymore so cant post the response I want atm but I appreciate you striving to create something to tackle this problem rooted in objectivity (would love the same), just fearful of potentially poor results based on what others have tried to do in the past in a similar fashion

Also hi chooby I saw u infracted me but I cant open PMs on my phone but that's ok I probably deserved it ps I missed u
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Old 07-6-2018, 09:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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I'm not home anymore so cant post the response I want atm but I appreciate you striving to create something to tackle this problem rooted in objectivity (would love the same), just fearful of potentially poor results based on what others have tried to do in the past in a similar fashion
I'll be waiting for your reply ! I'm in no hurry and I still need to do Many things before I get to actually modeling anything.

EDIT: Even though I appreciate any comment about how x or y previous solution worked or not, since there are quite a bunch of ways to approach the problem, I'd prefer if details to the mentionned solutions are linked to or explained thoroughly. Otherwise, I can only guess stuff about the implementations and that would lead me nowhere most likely. More maths and machine learning arguments would be much more productive imo.

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Old 07-7-2018, 01:47 AM   #16
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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I just want to mention again that although I only talk about nps, there are Many metrics that can be extracted with that. What I mean with "judging with patterns" is any approach that tries to match hardcoded patterns in a file (kinda like a regex) and applies metrics to that; I believe it can never take into account every pattern and variation, as opposed to nps metrics that can model speed and hand bias in a way that englobes all possibilities.
wrong
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Old 07-7-2018, 02:06 AM   #17
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

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wrong
Well thank you for your detailed insight, I will consider your opinion !

No seriously provide information or don't post. Idc how much you know about it if you're gonna say yes/no. Ty
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Old 07-7-2018, 02:18 AM   #18
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

i could explain myself but then i'd have to kill you
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Old 07-7-2018, 02:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

man the only thing more cliche than that response would be if i had already written extensively on all of the relevant areas of discussion

then carefully organized said writing into a document that was made public

then spent thousands of hours doing practical implementation of testing of said thoughts

gosh that would really be the b side of a bollywood movie tier script
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Old 07-7-2018, 02:41 AM   #20
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Default Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS

rong
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