Lucid Dreaming

[MrRubix]

I made this thread to discuss interesting-yet-legitimate concepts such as lucid dreaming (as opposed to crap like astral projection).

Anyone here a lucid dreamer?

I've been practicing it for about 8 years now or so. I was absolutely stoked when Inception came out because it actually referred to a lot of lucid dream terminology and concepts: A "spinning" totem likely being a throwback to the well-established heuristic of "spinning" in a dream to prolong it, the concept of reality-testing, etc (unfortunately, the notion of time-dilation doesn't really occur in a lucid dream).

Normally I subscribe to the "lightswitch" approach of reality testing, and the DILD method of entering lucid dreams (I've never been able to get WILDs to work). I know what lights do when I turn them on and off in real life. But in my dreams, lightswitches typically do weird things. This signal has been so well-ingrained in me by now that it automatically lets me know I'm dreaming (as a rather funny aside somewhat related to Inception's "Limbo," the other night I was lightswitch-testing my dream and the lights actually worked correctly. I mistakenly thought I was in reality -- and the unfortunate part was that I was also in a nightmare involving a murderous rollercoaster).

But yeah anyone else into this sort of thing?

[who_cares973]

I've never actually had lucid dreams on command but I have experienced them pretty trippy

[TC_Halogen]

I am a lucid dreamer. I started reading about articles of those who were able to manipulate their thoughts and I took it upon myself to try and condition myself to have control of my dreams - it's definitely not easy at all. The bad thing (at least with my own experience) about lucid dreaming is that while you may have partial control of what happens, there's also the chance that you can't grasp what's going on. When I was living in Easton, I went through an episode when I was extremely tired, but not completely asleep, and I got injured (shot - thoughts of my own Chicago neighborhood)...not entirely sure about how hypnogogia works, but I definitely know that my heart rate was considerably higher.

I'll stop babbling now.

EDIT: Almost forgot about how they're induced. From what I've seen and read, DILD is very common because the person has recognition of themselves dream. WILD is a bit more rare and can happen as, how I've mentioned above, just off of pure fatigue (ala hypnagogic hallucination) because of their nature (from conscious to dream with no apparent change).

[Izzy]

I've only experienced something that can be considered lucid dreaming a couple of times at random. Would be a great skill to have on demand.

[MrRubix]

I can only speak from my own experience here, but for me, lucid dreaming is a tricky sort of control. You can sit here, awake, at this very moment, and (for example) imagine a door appearing on your nearest wall. If you try to use that same sort of imagination/focus in a dream, you'll wake up. Lucid dreaming isn't so much an active, "focused" molding of your dream. It's all still somewhat subconscious -- it's just that you "realize" you're dreaming and therefore feel invulnerable. Your id kicks in and you basically start doing whatever you want, but it's a sort of "impulsive" control and not a focused one in most cases. But spinning will typically help compensate for any mistakes you make in a dream by keeping you grounded -- the main problem is getting too excited/focused when you realize you're lucid, causing you to wake up.

For the first 5 years or so, a lot of my control was in the form of invulnerability, but now I have pretty much full control over all events, assuming that I realize I'm dreaming. Sometimes my reality tests fail or I forget to perform them altogether, although the former is rarer in frequency.

[Relambrien]

Unfortunately, I've never experienced a true lucid dream, though I did have a hilarious half-lucid dream a while back.

The entire story isn't really worth telling, but the important part is that at one point, my dream self came under the impression that I was in fact dreaming. However, all of the implications of this were completely absent. You could replace "dreaming" with "a tree" and nothing would have changed.

Though that dream did involve one of the Duelist Kingdom tournament organizers from Yu-Gi-Oh wielding a beastly Pokemon team while acting as a servant to a Touhou character. That part was pretty odd, but awesome.

[Izzy]

Would day dreaming be considered semi lucid dreaming? Maybe it's just me, but typical day dreams are very interactive and vivid.

[MrRubix]

What you describe might be a variant of a WILD

[Superfreak04]

Rubix, how do you train yourself to become a lucid dreamer? I've heard of something known as "mugwort" that apparently gives you lucid dreams, but it never worked for me, so I don't know.

[bmah]

I had no clue you can practice to dream lucidly. I only recall a lucid dream once, and while it was fun, I don't think it's something I can ever attain again under my own control. I thought getting these dreams were just random - some people seem to have it more than others.

[MrRubix]

The most important thing you can do is keep a journal next to your bed. When you wake up, write down as much as you can remember. You tend to forget dreams very quickly after you wake up. This practice of writing will help you keep that part of your memory active and you will start to get a better feel for certain patterns/common elements in your dreams that, over time, will help you subconsciously realize when you are dreaming. Being able to recall dreams more strongly allows you to lucid dream more frequently. Write down anything you remember -- it all helps, no matter how spotty. Pictures help too.

The general idea, to take it further, is to reality test. You need to get in the habit of "testing reality" so often that you do it in your dreams. Have you ever studied a foreign language so much that you sometimes have dreams where that foreign language is used subconsciously? This is somewhat similar. For me, it's the lightswitch. When you use lightswitches in your everyday life, do so as you normally would, but pay attention. Of course, things will turn off/on as they should. But if you pay attention to lights in your dreams, you'll typically find that things are strange. The idea is to get in the habit of doing something that has an expected effect in real life but a strange one in a dream. This might be looking at the time on your watch, looking away, and looking back. It might be looking in a mirror. It might be checking your body for a certain mark. Whatever works for you.

Once you master recognizing that you're dreaming, the next challenge is learning to remain in that state. The hard part for most people is that they realize they're dreaming, get excited, and wake up. You have to train yourself to just go with it. This is typically easier when you're *really* sleepy. For me, during college, I had an easier time with this when I had used caffeine to help me stay up and study... only to have a really hard crash/vivid dream later that was not so easy to wake up from. Spinning your dream body is a good way to keep yourself interacting in your dream if you feel that you're starting to wake up. This honestly took me a while to get the hang of -- but after enough caffeinated sleep-crashes, I got used to the feeling of going lucid such that it no longer excited me out of sheer novelty, allowing me to stay asleep. In other words, let the novelty wear off over time. It's kinda like your first orgasm, haha. After a while, it's just the same old same old.

Next step of the challenge is to figure out how to actually exercise your control. This is different for everyone, but in general, you can't be *too* focused/direct about it because that will wake you up. Start out simple by just "realizing you're dreaming" but not trying to change much. Just see where that revelation alone takes you as you allow the automation of the dream to continue. Then you can try different methods of changing things/altering the direction of your dream/screwing with physics/inserting people into your dream/etc. It's a skill that you'll hone over time. Again, it's taken me a few years to really get a good grip on what I can control in my dreams. Going lucid is pretty easy for me now, and staying asleep once I've gone lucid is equally simple. The hard part is directing your subconscious to control things in a way you "consciously" want without botching it.

[A Beautiful Mind]

Rubix, you always introduce the most interesting thread discussions. I personally have only lucid dreamt twice in my life, both which I remember rather vividly. I've heard a bunch of theories as to how to enable or spark a lucid dream, but they didn't really work.

Usually, though, when you've entered a lucid state of a dream, you just know. It's extremely difficult to describe or even explain, as I'm sure you know. It's sort of just a sudden feeling you receive where you're fully conscious of the fact that you're dreaming.


Interesting you bring up Inception, too. I had a strange dream about three days ago that I probably would never have been able to experience had I not seen the movie prior. To make a long explanation short, the dream consisted of me and someone else doing something tragic, I can't remember exactly what, and we were escaping. I was under a lot of stress because had I been caught, I would have easily been locked up in prison for life. So I did a reality check. I did a handstand in the elevator, and was handstanding for quite some time, validating the fact that I was dreaming... it was really strange, though because while I was conscious of the fact that I was in a dream.. I wasn't conscious of the fact that I was dreaming of being in a dream.

In other words, I was having a dream about me being inside of a dream. Mind-boggling, I know.

[Superfreak04]

Originally Posted by MrRubix

The most important thing you can do is keep a journal next to your bed. When you wake up, write down as much as you can remember. You tend to forget dreams very quickly after you wake up. This practice of writing will help you keep that part of your memory active and you will start to get a better feel for certain patterns/common elements in your dreams that, over time, will help you subconsciously realize when you are dreaming. Being able to recall dreams more strongly allows you to lucid dream more frequently. Write down anything you remember -- it all helps, no matter how spotty. Pictures help too.

The general idea, to take it further, is to reality test. You need to get in the habit of "testing reality" so often that you do it in your dreams. Have you ever studied a foreign language so much that you sometimes have dreams where that foreign language is used subconsciously? This is somewhat similar. For me, it's the lightswitch. When you use lightswitches in your everyday life, do so as you normally would, but pay attention. Of course, things will turn off/on as they should. But if you pay attention to lights in your dreams, you'll typically find that things are strange. The idea is to get in the habit of doing something that has an expected effect in real life but a strange one in a dream. This might be looking at the time on your watch, looking away, and looking back. It might be looking in a mirror. It might be checking your body for a certain mark. Whatever works for you.

Once you master recognizing that you're dreaming, the next challenge is learning to remain in that state. The hard part for most people is that they realize they're dreaming, get excited, and wake up. You have to train yourself to just go with it. This is typically easier when you're *really* sleepy. For me, during college, I had an easier time with this when I had used caffeine to help me stay up and study... only to have a really hard crash/vivid dream later that was not so easy to wake up from.

Gotcha, and in doing so, once I realize I'm dreaming, I can make things come and go as I please? For example, if I realize I'm dreaming, I automatically can make an apple appear on the table sitting next to me? Or will trying to do something of that varient trigger me to wake up?

EDIT: Damnit you edited your post just before I quoted your post, now I look stupid. xD

[MrRubix]

Originally Posted by Superfreak04

Gotcha, and in doing so, once I realize I'm dreaming, I can make things come and go as I please? For example, if I realize I'm dreaming, I automatically can make an apple appear on the table sitting next to me? Or will trying to do something of that varient trigger me to wake up?

EDIT: Damnit you edited your post just before I quoted your post, now I look stupid. xD

You can do this, sure -- but when you say "automatically make an apple appear," the mechanism is a little different from what you might use when you're awake. You can imagine an apple on your desk right now as we speak, but trying to focus in that way while you're asleep will usually kickstart your conscious mind back up and you'll soon find that you're just staring at the backs of your eyelids and the automation of your dream has ended. By "automation" I refer to the sort of phenomenon in dreams where things just "happen" without your consent/will/choice/etc.

The problem is that most newbies will try to focus really hard, in their dreams, at some spot on their desk and wait until an apple shows up. They manage to think "I want an apple. I want it to appear here," and then they basically try to envision an apple appearing in the same way you'd envision an apple appearing on your desk in real life -- only you expect it to stay there in your dream after you get it to appear.... but in such a way that you can interact with it as a function of your automation. That is to say, you made the apple appear and now your dream automation involves an apple. Such a common mistake will make you wake up almost every time.

I'd describe it as a sort of "confidence," instead. Instead of just "imagining" an apple into existence, it's really a kind of "I know there's an apple here already." Ever have dreams where you "know" something is true in your dream when, realistically, there's no way it could be true? Or perhaps you've had dreams where you have "false memories" of something but blindly accepted as true? I guess it's a similar sort of function. For me, control is a function of already-fulfilled expectation. If I want to completely change my dream, I might think, "I want to go to Disneyland, and I know it's behind that door over there." Then opening that door will usually lead you to Disneyland if you "know" it's back there.

Of course, with more practice, you can actually use that expectation to make things appear out of nothing. I can actually look at the desk and make an apple appear as part of my dream automation because I know it'll happen -- I don't have to "wait and hope" that my mind will do it for me.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by A Beautiful Mind

In other words, I was having a dream about me being inside of a dream. Mind-boggling, I know.

It's actually not quite as rare as you might think. It's well known that you can have...for lack of a better explanation - circular logic within your dream. Hear me out for a minute: imagine yourself dreaming about yourself in your own room, just about to wake up. You're acting out your normal day, within your mind, completely subconsciously. It's not uncommon for a person who is undergoing this kind of dream to sleepwalk if they are extremely fatigued, or do actions and feel like they are awake, because they are acting how they typically would if they were awake.

Thinking about this phenomena within your logic, you'd be sleeping, while sleeping in your sub-conscious (or your dream), and dreaming a level below that. Quite something, eh?

[A Beautiful Mind]

In my first lucid dream, I tested reality by jumping off the side of a 10 floor building.. most exhilarating feeling ever. Although, I wouldn't recommend trying this in the case that it might turn out that you're not dreaming.

[sakura080789]

im guessing in a sense i have had one or two lucid dreams

[leonid]

I used to lucid dream a lot, even though I was too lazy to write dream journal.

And I could control it to a certain extent (e.g. flying)

Not anymore though, probably because my sleeping habit is seriously screwed up due to univ.

[rushyrulz]

I don't recall ever having a lucid dream, but I've had some pretty vivid ones that almost seemed lucid (but weren't, because I wasn't changing anything). I also had a dream when I was young where I fell asleep in 3 times inside other dreams >.< it was hard to wake up. Speaking of hard to wake up, there was also an instance when I was fully conscious, but I couldn't open my eyes no matter how hard I tried. This might have been a dream as well.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by MrRubix

The problem is that most newbies will try to focus really hard, in their dreams, at some spot on their desk and wait until an apple shows up. They manage to think "I want an apple. I want it to appear here," and then they basically try to envision an apple appearing in the same way you'd envision an apple appearing on your desk in real life -- only you expect it to stay there in your dream after you get it to appear.... but in such a way that you can interact with it as a function of your automation. That is to say, you made the apple appear and now your dream automation involves an apple. Such a common mistake will make you wake up almost every time.

I'd describe it as a sort of "confidence," instead. Instead of just "imagining" an apple into existence, it's really a kind of "I know there's an apple here already." Ever have dreams where you "know" something is true in your dream when, realistically, there's no way it could be true? Or perhaps you've had dreams where you have "false memories" of something but blindly accepted as true? I guess it's a similar sort of function. For me, control is a function of already-fulfilled expectation. If I want to completely change my dream, I might think, "I want to go to Disneyland, and I know it's behind that door over there." Then opening that door will usually lead you to Disneyland if you "know" it's back there.

Of course, with more practice, you can actually use that expectation to make things appear out of nothing. I can actually look at the desk and make an apple appear as part of my dream automation because I know it'll happen -- I don't have to "wait and hope" that my mind will do it for me.

Marcus is bringing up exactly what I was trying to do after first reading about this, and it was extremely frustrating because I would always get the same result - absolutely nothing. Simply trying to force your mind to randomly generate an object will not get you anywhere; think about what you're doing. You are -trying- to create an object, but creating this object will revolve your entire dream around it, because you've focused so hard about it. Lack of addition to anything you dream about will cause you to wake up because you are aware that you created this.

The way that I was able to pick up lucid dreaming was to keep track of certain objects that would appear in dreams and write them down. Regardless of what the dream was, an key item would appear in the dream, and it was either completely out of place, or there was something completely wrong with it. This is where your reality test kicks in. Certain things will be askew, and the toughest part about this is realizing that it's nothing more than a dream. When just starting, seeing random things out of place will be more than enough to pull you out of lucidity.

The way that I practiced lucid dreaming involved exhausting myself greatly with some form of exercise or just having a very long day (in terms of how long I was wake). Because of the extreme fatigue, I was able to gradually push myself down to the dream state (WILD), and even better - it's considerably harder to wake up. However, trying to start lucid dreaming in this manner might not be effective because the fatigue may prove to be difficult to control. It just took me a lot of practice, and a lot of patience.

I'm still finding it difficult to get lucid dreams through DILD -- it's extremely difficult to gather control, unless I get something extremely bizarre.