legit as fuck stepmania competition (idea phase)

[lurker]

So a few days ago, this ITG competition happened for the fourth time in as many years. I think we could run something similar for keyboard players.
The basic idea is this: each player has 2 fairly long StepMania sessions (probably 90 minutes, like Bearpocalypse), each of which has its own song list and a fairly convoluted scoring system. Whoever racks up the most points in both sessions compared to their peers wins internet swag, which I KNOW no one can resist. I think there's a lot more potential for this than a full-blown StepMania tournament: every player would only need to commit 3 hours at least, so this is something that could easily be run over the course of a week (if not 3 days like Bearpocalypse).

The goal of this thread is to see how many people would be interested in this, and figure out some of the technical details. Specifically, we'll need to make a serious attempt at quantifying difficulty. We can work on a date after we get some interest gathered up, and song lists will come after we have a decent difficulty scale to use.

I'm gonna try to address the five biggest concerns right off the bat:
Q: Would you allow all play styles?
A: Due to a larger player base, a ridiculously larger pre-existing song list to work with, and a little bit of personal bias, the main focus for this competition would be 4k. I would definitely involve 6k and index if possible, but each has its own problems. I'm not sure if there would be enough interest in 6k (although I don't think we'd need more than a dozen players to make it worthwhile), and it has a relatively small song list. The problem with index is comparatively minor: I've barely played index, so I'd need a bit more help organizing that part of the competition.

Q: Will this be biased towards players who are good at MA/speed/stamina/jacking/etc?
A: I'll try to make this as balanced as possible, but stamina's clearly going to win out. You're going to have to play at your maximum skill level for as long as possible (or until the sessions end), so obviously people who can stay consistent throughout their sessions are going to do better. Speed is also going to be important since that's the easiest metric to judge. MA will have to take a backseat unless I come up with some sort of bonus explicitly for it. The first session of Bearpocalypse has an "other" category as part of its song list which I'll fill with songs that focus on fringe skills like mashing, jacking, weird timing (rainbow notes/polyrhythms), and so on.

Q: Why would you run a competition when the skill gap between the best players is so great? Why should I care if I can't AA Reality?
A: First of all, open the scores from Bearpocalypse, and look at the gaps between the top three. If the ITG community is willing to hold a competition where the top two is all but decided, no one here can use that excuse. It's not all about getting first place. Also, I don't think the skill gaps in 4k are that severe (6k totally has it worse). I won't deny that they're there at the very top, but there's definitely a solid mid-upper tier with a bunch of good players in it and not too much difference between them. Third, while Bearpocalypse used a qualifier specifically to eliminate people, you have to keep in mind that they were holding the event in a dude's house. We don't have to be bound to a physical location, so we don't have to worry about letting too many people compete. I'm already planning to use qualifiers to split the field into tiers if this takes off.

Q: What if you pick songs that are too easy for the top tier or too hard for the bottom tier?
A: This marks the biggest change from Bearpocalypse outside of not having a central location: I'm going to allow rates. I've already come up with a way to scale the % scoring system for rates greater than 1.0 (and I will share the formula for anyone who'd like to see it) which generally states that you can beat any score on a given rate if you can get a AA with decent MA on a rate 0.1 higher. I'm also willing to let people use rates lower than 1.0, but with a really hefty penalty so that there's no incentive to play a lower rate if you can play a significant amount of the chart on 1.0. Just a quick warning, however: Bearpocalypse's song lists were not intended to be passed completely or even mostly, even by the winner. I won't be able to do the same without alienating everyone, but I will make it as tough as possible.

Q: If you're not going to use a central location, how will you know that everyone is legit?
A: This is obviously the biggest concern, especially since allowing rates makes using SMO as a buffer impossible (although I'm thinking of making one of the sessions 1.0 only so at least we could use that for one part of the competition). However, it's not like believing scores isn't already a trust exercise, so I don't think there's a sure-fire way to guarantee that everyone is legit. The one legitimacy issue unique to this competition would be guaranteeing that everyone obeys the session time limit, but it would be pretty easy to just add a timer to one theme for SM5 and 3.95 and make everyone use that. I think there's some room for research on the subject if people are really concerned, but for now I'll stick with just hoping people don't cheat.

Just a quick warning: I was thinking of doing this as a test drive first, to see if it would be viable to expand to include other StepMania communities. As such, I'd prefer if this idea wasn't spread around before we actually lock things down.

[lurker]

guise i used proper grammers plz reed

[Sidek]

tl;dr....

[blindreper1179]

Sounds interesting. I'd be down.

[choof]

would play

would definitely play if there was 6k section

[blindreper1179]

If you could split the 6 key into two groups I'd be down for that to.

[EzExZeRo7497]

I actually had a similar idea for tourneys (inspired by BP3, but it's only one session and one scoring system, D5-D7 divisions) for FFR, but it never really took off because I couldn't really find an optimal formula to calculate scores (I had something like [% of max raw score * % of maximum perfects+amount of boos]^3 * 1.1^scale) and finding files suitable for the difficulties are by far the hardest part.

I think the BP4 tournament format wouldn't be used very well for keyboard play, especially since people go for AAs/As instead of passes. I can't quite imagine The Trail of Tiers (the one with %s and all) to take off easily due to the fact that passes would be too easy to get due to the lenient lifebar and if you decide to give a bonus for every AA (Trail of Tiers gives bonuses for passes), the score differences between players won't be significant by any means since most players should be able to AA through each song in the same tier because skillset is not emphasised anywhere as much as ITG would.

Fundamentals (the second set) WOULD work, but I think the BP3's Score format would be better for something like this, since the tourney would accommodate many players instead of an elite group of players. Doubling the scores for best AAs (arbitrary grade, but it's probably the most similar to passes compared to As because As are far too easy to get) might cause a little too much of a gap between players to really show some competition (notice the ridiculous gap between Matt and Phil in Fundamentals, while there should be a gap, Matt having 50% more points than Phil is probably a little too significant considering their skill gap) - the top 5 to 10 would be clear and it wouldn't be as fun to watch. The formula could be tweaked to remedy the issue however.

I personally think BP3's Score format is the best format to use (at least one of the two formats that are going to be used) due to how modifiable the formula is and how the differences in scores wouldn't be very significant. The formula used for BP3 is score% * 1.1^BS, where BS is an arbitrary number assigned to a file based on difficulty. It could be adjusted to MIGS%^2 * 1.1 or 1.2^scale for KB tourneys, for example. It's ultimately up to you whether or not you want to use this format though, I just think it's probably the best one to use.

There are some other things I want to talk about, like using a different DP formula to calculate scores (marvelouses having slightly more weightage, goods affect scores as badly as boos, etc.) but I think this is enough for one post. I really want to see the tourney happen, it's such a fantastic tournament idea.

EDIT: Curious to see the rate formula.

[Mahou]

Sounds very interesting, but I'll have to sit to the side on this one. Ever since school has started, I really haven't been 100% committed to playing Stepmania. It's just one of those things I do in my leisure time.

[Wafles]

I'm down

2 or 3 divisions would be nice though

[Dynam0]

Sure, sounds fun

[lurker]

Originally Posted by EzExZeRo7497

I think the BP4 tournament format wouldn't be used very well for keyboard play, especially since people go for AAs/As instead of passes. I can't quite imagine The Trail of Tiers (the one with %s and all) to take off easily due to the fact that passes would be too easy to get due to the lenient lifebar and if you decide to give a bonus for every AA (Trail of Tiers gives bonuses for passes), the score differences between players won't be significant by any means since most players should be able to AA through each song in the same tier because skillset is not emphasised anywhere as much as ITG would.

I like the idea of the tier system at the core of it, and I'd like to find some way to keep it in. I think the time limit could change the attitude towards scores lower than As (including fails). It could also force people to stick to a certain skillset, since the right choice of songs could force people to choose between long songs they can get a decent score on and short songs they may not be able to pass.
The way bonuses were given in BP4 obviously would not work for the reasons you said. We still need a way to encourage playing a whole tier in addition to as many as possible, though. I'm thinking a bonus for each tier that is "completed" in some way would do it, but I don't know how exactly. I don't want it to just be Fundamentals with groups of songs.

[choof]

how about no divisions like literally every other gaming tournament

[lurker]

I think a "serious" tier and a "not-so-serious" tier would be completely fine. That's basically what qualifiers for other games do anyway, it's just that the "not-so-serious" tier doesn't get to play as much.

[choof]

dat works

I'm gonna step a file just for this tourney
if it doesn't actually happen I'll send to keyboard smash

[Askur Yggdrasils]

Well that sounds cool.

In if it happens.

[stargroup100]

I'm totally willing to help contribute to this. One of the major reasons why I never got into this game competitively is because I thought the competitive metrics were totally imbalanced.

So if lurker wants to reach me through something I can share the progress I've made on things such as scoring and difficulty, and maybe he can get something out of it.

[kommisar]

be sure to vary the songlist as to not be biased towards a certain style of play. basically don't make the whole comp icyworld js files

[Callipygian]

sounds like a nice idea. I might actually reinstall stepmania for this ;O

[James May]

Originally Posted by kommisar

be sure to vary the songlist as to not be biased towards a certain style of play. basically don't make the whole comp icyworld js files

lmao.

Anyhow, I'd be down to make a few files for this if it ever goes down.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by kommisar

be sure to vary the songlist as to not be biased towards a certain style of play. basically don't make the whole comp icyworld js files

Oh yeah, this totally isn't gonna happen. Totally.