fuck Georgia

[ShadoWolfe]

Fuck Georgia one more time

[roundbox]

y'allqaeda continuing its war on women
absolutely disgusting

[the sun fan]

I really feel like I have to say the people in the pro-life movement

the vast majority of them really do just feel like they're protecting the life of the unprotected

not that they're trying to subjugate women

[TWGma]

Once more, now that the bill has been signed.

Fuck. Alabama.

[roundbox]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

I really feel like I have to say the people in the pro-life movement

the vast majority of them really do just feel like they're protecting the life of the unprotected

not that they're trying to subjugate women

I think this is a sweeping generalization based off of anecdotal evidence. It's still a side effect of the anti-abortion law no matter how you justify it. The people in power are usually doing so using religion as a backbone to mask their intentions to take power rights from women. It's already been discussed here about how the Bible mandates wives to be subservient to their husbands.

As some examples, Gov. Ivey's tweet states, "To the bill’s many supporters, this legislation stands as a powerful testament to Alabamians’ deeply held belief that every life is precious & that every life is a sacred gift from God." My state's governor, Kim Reynolds, issued a similar statement in her signing of a ban in our state: "I believe that all innocent life is precious and sacred..."

It still controls women's sexuality and how often they can have sex (if at all). Many states with these restrictive laws lack proper sex education and access to contraceptives like birth control pills. In fact, Iowa (who passed a 6-week ban but was later struck down) is one such state that suffers from a lack of access to contraceptives. There was a startup here literally a few days ago that does remote conferencing over phone and Internet with women trying to get a prescription for birth control. 170,000 women in Iowa are in contraceptive deserts, which means they are more than 50 miles away from a place that can sell them. The startup will send them via mail.

Looking at the other states with such restrictions, there's no push or mention of contraceptives at all or safe sex. If it was about preventing pregnancy, there would be a bigger push to get this information out. However, it stems from religious fundamentalism which forbids such contraceptives but also premarital sex in general. Women always lose here.

Men have what to worry about, exactly? Assuming they're not emotionally attached to the mother/child, at worst, child support? MAYBE guilt if the mother dies giving birth? Men have little stake in this. If a woman gets pregnant, she has nothing else to do but accept the fact the baby is coming out of her legs no matter how unprepared she is economically or emotionally.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by roundbox

Men have what to worry about, exactly? Assuming they're not emotionally attached to the mother/child, at worst, child support? MAYBE guilt if the mother dies giving birth? Men have little stake in this. If a woman gets pregnant, she has nothing else to do but accept the fact the baby is coming out of her legs no matter how unprepared she is economically or emotionally.

It's a good idea to take a look at the bigger picture of the effect these bills will have

What's scary is how rape is now effectively weaponized with those bills, and poor women are in a lot more trouble with bans on abortion. In an earlier post I mentioned this as well.

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

The more this bill is looked into, the worse it gets.

One (but obviously not the only) major contributing factor to a miscarriage is poor nutrition. Poor women would be at risk of being prosecuted with the bill's investigation clause because they have trouble affording food with decent nutritional value. Sugary drinks, for example, are cheap but very unhealthy. Basically, punish women who are struggling financially instead of giving them aid for better nutrition which would help lower an important contributing factor to miscarriages.

Also, if there is an abusive relationship between a man and a woman, the man could end up causing physical harm to the woman and potentially cause a miscarriage. If there isn't enough evidence to show that the man contributed to the miscarriage, then the woman is the one who still gets punished and the man gets away with it.

Or a rapist impregnates a woman and then injures her, inducing a miscarriage. Rapist not only tries to damage the woman's body with a pregnancy but the woman also gets punished with prison time even if the rapist receives a punishment.

Financial costs are also important. Deadly Delivery is a study about maternal health that had many disturbing findings; and while this data is from 2010, it's still important to see how relevant these issues are. Consider the following findings:

According to new UN data, maternal mortality in the US has worsened,
falling from 41st to 50th in the world. In other words, women in the US face
a greater risk of maternal death than in 49 other countries.

Over 4 million women in the US give birth each year, and the hospital bills
for this care reached $98 billion. International Federation of Health Plans
data indicated that the US spends twice as much as any other country
surveyed on the fees charged by maternal health care providers.

The US maternal mortality ratio, at 12.7 (deaths per 100,000 live births),
was 3 times as high as the Healthy People 2010 goal, a national target set
by the US government.

The maternal mortality ratio for American Indian/Alaska Native women was
4 times higher than the 2010 target and for African American women was 8
times higher than the 2010 target.

Women living in low-income areas across the US were twice as likely to
suffer a maternal death as women in high income areas.

The US cesarean rate rose for the 13th consecutive year to reach an all-time
high of 32.9% in 2009,6 more than double the WHO recommended range of
5% to 15%.

New analysis shows that the states reporting higher than average cesarean
rates (over 33% of births) had a 21% higher risk of maternal mortality than
states with cesarean rates less than 33%.7

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace

learn to complain without suffering

valuable skill in life

This post is starting to make more sense to me now.

It's one thing to be aware of the current situation and discuss it, although we can also help take matters into our own hands.

Putting out ideas, having healthy non-judgmental discussions, finding organizations to donate to, vote... as individuals, we can still play our part even if we're not lawmakers.

[the sun fan]

I think people just think that anyone (not just women) shouldn't have sex indiscriminately

I don't agree with that its just like

I don't think that its "a desire to subjugate women" that really constitutes the majority of the pro-life movement

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

I think people just think that anyone (not just women) shouldn't have sex indiscriminately

I don't agree with that its just like

I don't think that its "a desire to subjugate women" that really constitutes the majority of the pro-life movement

It's important to distinguish the pro-life concept from the pro-life movement. There's the theory, and then there's reality/practice.

While I don't necessarily agree with the pro-life view, I can see what their perspective is. They assign the same value to an embryo/fetus to a born person.

However, in practice, what ends up happening is a sharp contradiction. A lot of it has to do with a perversion of the scope of the discussion.

Some, but not all pro-life people, will just say something like "Abortion is murder and immoral, full stop" -- and then say there is nothing to discuss. At that point, there isn't even any discussion about the potential effects of the action (fighting to make abortion illegal). It's regarded as not relevant.

I've talked to some pro-life friends who agree that the current abortion debate is ridiculous. One of them even told me that he's noticed the lack of concern after birth in the pro-life movement.

There is a spectrum of pro-life, and the more extreme end is reflected in the lawmakers that are passing this legislation. It is so extreme that it is no longer just about making abortion illegal, but also extra punishments (in this case, investigating miscarriages and potentially banning contraceptives).

[Funnygurl555]

talking about abortion as men controlling women's bodies is a clever political tactic but it's honestly not true. this doesn't take away from the fact that illegalizing abortion takes control away from women.

this is about education, religion, and class a lot more.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by TWGma

Once more, now that the bill has been signed.

Fuck. Alabama.

Let's modify this.

Fuck anyone who thinks this is fine. Not just Alabama or Georgia.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555

talking about abortion as men controlling women's bodies is a clever political tactic but it's honestly not true. this doesn't take away from the fact that illegalizing abortion takes control away from women.

this is about education, religion, and class a lot more.

Poll results like this make a lot of sense when there are only two labels and there is a big spectrum.

For me I would've wanted a third option about Mixed/Other. I think the labels should go away altogether.

[inDheart]

i think the labels either changing or going away would help clarify that question and also help about 44% of the population quit lying

the given question is "With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be 'pro-choice' or 'pro-life'?"

also says "no opinion" includes mixed/other but it might help to have an explicit option

[devonin]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

I don't think that its "a desire to subjugate women" that really constitutes the majority of the pro-life movement

Then why does everybody who is responsible for anti-abortion legislation not give a shit about the child once it is born?

This is what gives lie to the "protecting life" idea.

In -no state at all- is support for "banning abortion" even at 25%. it is NOWHERE NEAR a majority view ANYWHERE. And yet the people pushing the narrative of "We're just protecting innocent human life" are the same people locking children in cages (Another one died in government custody just the other day), bombing innocent children in foreign countries, refusing to take even a single step to safeguard schoolchildren from mass shooting after mass shooting.

They cannot, with anything even vaguely approaching a straight face suggest they actually care about -life-

They care about preventing a class of people from exercising control over their own bodies.


Like sure, you've got funnygirl's poll showing breakdown of people who said "Yes I'm pro life" when asked if they were pro life, but if you actually look at who wants to actually create anti-abortion laws, it's almost nobody.

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by devonin

Then why does everybody who is responsible for anti-abortion legislation not give a shit about the child once it is born?

This is what gives lie to the "protecting life" idea.

In -no state at all- is support for "banning abortion" even at 25%. it is NOWHERE NEAR a majority view ANYWHERE. And yet the people pushing the narrative of "We're just protecting innocent human life" are the same people locking children in cages (Another one died in government custody just the other day), bombing innocent children in foreign countries, refusing to take even a single step to safeguard schoolchildren from mass shooting after mass shooting.

They cannot, with anything even vaguely approaching a straight face suggest they actually care about -life-

They care about preventing a class of people from exercising control over their own bodies.

you just can't convince me that the lower classes are voting to subjugate women (post-edit; you can't convince me that their primary motivation is to subjugate women, and not to protect the lives of the unborn); they just, overwhelmingly, have to feel like abortion is murder.

I am not disputing that they don't care about life after its born, at least in the sense that you mean it, but I just cannot be convinced that a large majority of people believe in the subjugation of women being achieved from barring women from achieving legal abortions. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

The part about preventing a class of people from controlling their bodies is the thing where I think we come pretty close to saying the same thing here; its not about "subjugating women" for so many people, its about "protecting the most vulnerable" or what have you.

EDIT: Honestly, this is part of why we're so divided right now imo. We're staring at the other side calling each other baby-murderers and sexists when I don't think that's either motivation here, at least not for the vast majority.

Again, I agree with people here. I think that its ridiculously hypocritical that many people in the pro-life movement are not the same people taking up causes for protecting life after it has been born, but are the ones doing so before.

I just think that we're staring at the other side with the wrong idea.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by the sun fan

you just can't convince me that the lower classes are voting to subjugate women (post-edit; you can't convince me that their primary motivation is to subjugate women, and not to protect the lives of the unborn); they just, overwhelmingly, have to feel like abortion is murder.

Originally Posted by I Corinthians 14:34-35 (NASB)

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm

Some scholars take the stance that this passage was not originally from Paul the Apostle and was later added. I agree with their analysis. Regardless, there is a long lineage of subjugation of women stemming from the word of God as written here.

You seem to have an extremely naive understanding of evangelical Christianity. I would recommend educating yourself before giving them the benefit of the principle of charity.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by devonin

Like sure, you've got funnygirl's poll showing breakdown of people who said "Yes I'm pro life" when asked if they were pro life, but if you actually look at who wants to actually create anti-abortion laws, it's almost nobody.

Yep. Polling is a clusterfuck and small changes in methodology can greatly change outcomes

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by aperson

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm

Some scholars take the stance that this passage was not originally from Paul the Apostle and was later added. I agree with their analysis. Regardless, there is a long lineage of subjugation of women stemming from the word of God as written here.

You seem to have an extremely naive understanding of evangelical Christianity. I would recommend educating yourself before giving them the benefit of the principle of charity.

Firstly, I find this condescending when I don't think that that was warranted.

Secondly, my focus is not on evangelical Christianity. Its on the reasoning people give for their beliefs. But to mention this route, I think yes, there is a link between the reasons why people oppose abortion and their faith. I think that they don't justify their reasoning with whatever bible verse(s) mention(s) the subjugation of women to men. They just believe that abortion is equivalent to murder. I know of the verses you quoted; I had a long discussion with someone in high school whose church didn't allow women to speak (though I must admit that I am fuzzy on the details).

I also don't think I'm being charitable to anyone; I think, honestly, that there's too many people blinded by their own beliefs to see the other side clearly. On both sides.

[Funnygurl555]

another poll from the same site

once again, men and women want this in equal amounts. it's a women's issue but not a men's vs women's issue. thanks for ya time

sunfan's also dead on.

edit: this sounded snippy so i also wanted to add that i agree with the criticism of the polls i linked the first time. but im not backing down on my claim

[Saiyanwannabe]

wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.