The Final Fantasy [28 or 34]

[TC_Halogen]

A while back, I made a thread for this song. Even though the change was universally approved, including by jimerax, it seems like this file didn't get moved at all (if anything, it got pushed down).

Previous thread: http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...d.php?t=121933

This song came to mind randomly. I had to play it to make sure that I was right about this assumption.

This file has 16th notes in it, and the song sounds faster than 150 BPM. That alone doesn't merit the file being bumped to an 8, though. In addition to 16th notes being peppered throughout the chart, there's one handed trills landing into and out of jumps in the beginning of the chart, and little 16th note fifthlets with jumps starting and ending each set. There's also occasional sprints of 9+ 16th notes (the first which begins with a one handed mini-trill - 12121242424).

The song that carries the top of a difficulty should be hard, but this simply doesn't fit as a 7 to me.

With that being said, it would fit well with low-8-equivalents like Palindrome and Fantasia (which are two frequently well-scored on files).

[stavie33]

I have the file listed in my on comp word document list as a 30, and Honolulu as a 30, both of which, for whatever reason are not that in the game, I may have mis written them in the translation. Regardless, this song is a hard one to rate IMO, because the file is really straightforward for the most part, but it has those 16ths littered in with jumps. But then I think of files like Honolulu, which also have weird stuff like 12th jump jacks and fast 24ths littered in which feel harder to me. And then songs like Gameboy Ravel with fast and awkward stream at the end that seems like it would be harder FC and AAA wise for most low level players.


I see why I had it as a 30, because I looked at it FC and AAA wise compared to Honolulu and Gameboy Ravel, and even songs like Ninja Turtles and AM-3P, and it's easier FC wise than all of those, and AAA wise easier than Ravel and Honolulu. Looking at patterns the jumps seem ugly but maybe I'm used to jumps so it didn't seem as bad to me. Honolulu's patterns seem far far uglier and the stream in Gameboy Ravel looks far more uncomfortable. Idk I'd say 30/31 max and Honolulu should be 31. It's a file that based purely on density and looking at things like jump gluts and patterns seems to it with 8's, but AAA, FC, passability, and pattern wise is easier than lots of 7's. I feel Improv Et Chien, Honolulu, and Gameboy Ravel are all harder on a AAA'ing, FC'ing, and pattern level, while Gameboy is harder on a pass level IMO (the fast and awkward stream could mess people up badly)

[VisD]

Eh, didn't see this before, but as mentioned in the other thread - for which a change from 7 to 8 got approved - this file is hell for a 7. 30 is too low - the first pattern in the song is ridiculously mindblockable, and there are a whole bunch of short but fast 16th one handed trills in it. It's a 34, as Halogen mentions, on par with other ex-low 8s

[stavie33]

Here is a lot of my issues with 'rating' difficulties. There is no set standard for what makes an 8, and we just say 'this songs patterns are what we dub 8's so it's an 8', it's about how it compares to files that are in a certain difficulty range. We don't determine difficulty groups first, make a set of rules on what should be in that difficulty, have an empty list, and then fill it with songs that meet those parameters. We order all the songs in increasing difficulty order, then we group songs that are very similar in difficulty and where there are noticeable gaps/jumps in difficulty, we divide the range. So what I would like to hear about this file is not why it's patterns are worthy of 8's but how it's patterns compare to other 8's and 7's. As I've said I still find Improv et Chien far hard to AAA and PA, and Honolulu is arguably harder to FC as well as PA/AAA. Comparing it to the easiest 34, Resurrection in Progress, TFF is easier to pass and to FC, just harder to PA. Well so is Honolulu. I'm not opposed to moving it up, I can go 32, but I really don't think it's 34, or haven't been thoroughly convinced. It's jump gluts with 16ths are icky, but short, few, and the only thing making this song harder than something like World of Dreams. For new players that are proned to mashing they are still mashable, readability wise they are easier to read than Honolulu's 24th or Improvs color crap.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by stavie33

Here is a lot of my issues with 'rating' difficulties. There is no set standard for what makes an 8, and we just say 'this songs patterns are what we dub 8's so it's an 8', it's about how it compares to files that are in a certain difficulty range. We don't determine difficulty groups first, make a set of rules on what should be in that difficulty, have an empty list, and then fill it with songs that meet those parameters. We order all the songs in increasing difficulty order, then we group songs that are very similar in difficulty and where there are noticeable gaps/jumps in difficulty, we divide the range. So what I would like to hear about this file is not why it's patterns are worthy of 8's but how it's patterns compare to other 8's and 7's. As I've said I still find Improv et Chien far hard to AAA and PA, and Honolulu is arguably harder to FC as well as PA/AAA. Comparing it to the easiest 34, Resurrection in Progress, TFF is easier to pass and to FC, just harder to PA. Well so is Honolulu. I'm not opposed to moving it up, I can go 32, but I really don't think it's 34, or haven't been thoroughly convinced. It's jump gluts with 16ths are icky, but short, few, and the only thing making this song harder than something like World of Dreams. For new players that are proned to mashing they are still mashable, readability wise they are easier to read than Honolulu's 24th or Improvs color crap.

First off:

Honolulu:
AAAs: 799
FCs: 3,063
Players/Played: 33,450/134,155

The Final Fantasy:
AAAs: 420
FCs: 1,649
Players/Played: 40,039/129,856

Improvisation et Chien
AAAs: 372
FCs: 2,773
Players/Played: 19,698/91,527

First off, the amount of PLAYERS on The Final Fantasy is considerably higher (7,000+), and yet, look at statistics in comparison to some of the tougher songs in the difficulty range. Improvisation et Chien has a lower AAA count, yet it's still nowhere near the FC count. Improvisation et Chien is very freeform, but the density is absolutely pathetic.


Honolulu is a bit more constant, but there are very few jumps dispersed throughout the chart, and the patterns are very smooth because of this. In addition to this, the song is more straightforward because the initial (and constantly holding) structure is in 12th notes, so all that needs to be done for the short little bursts is doubling your speed for a split second.


Meanwhile, here's The Final Fantasy, which holds constant at a higher NPS than all of the songs previously mentioned.


You might find Improvisation et Chien harder to PA, but your bias in patterns/difficulty plays no objective factor in difficulty rating - the only thing that factors difficulty in patterns is density (i.e. streams are easier than jumpstream which are easier than handstream/etc). As mentioned before, all of Honolulu's NPS increases are in short 3-note 24th bursts at most.

As far as particular patterns, I mean... there's absolutely no question that The Final Fantasy blows the other songs out of the water. It might be easier to -pass-, but passing isn't a legitimate metric of measuring difficulty because of the boo judgment not breaking combo. The most accurate measurement of difficulty is a full combo on your song, with a respectable boocount (because again: anyone can mash).

Look at all of these patterns. Also, keep in mind - this song is 156 BPM. All of the images are clickable if the text shows up too small.








...I can't explain it anymore explicitly than this. This song needs to be re-rated up quite a few points. I was being modest at 34, to be perfectly honest.

[psychoangel691]

The Final Fantasy was always a file people complained about being an 8. Not in the mood to type up some lengthy post about it right now, but the majority has always been on that level for that file.

[Coolboyrulez0]

I fail to reflect anything useful on this thread that hasn't been said rather eloquently or via visual aids by AJ.

I can just voice in that I personally believe that this is a 34-36.

[One Winged Angel]

Replayed this file. It's a solid 35. Broken jumpstream at this speed is never encountered in old 7s, and the awkwardness/one-handedness makes this even more difficult to PA/FC for lower level players. Considering continuous 156bpm jumpstream is grounds for at least low VC, broken jumpstream with crappy, anchored patterns should at least be low VD. Anything else I could say about why this needs a bump up was probably already covered in AJ's very elaborate post (I say probably because I just skimmed it since I agreed with you :razz:)

[stavie33]

played it again, 35 would work. If I take out all bias and assume people are just bad at density then density wise and jump wise it is around 35's. 35 and we lock this thread? this file has always been a personal debate for me, I guess it's one of those I have some bias against. But 35 is reasonable, is that good?