Old 09-23-2006, 10:15 AM   #21
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl View Post
I am of the mind that if you're not willing to speak up on the things you believe in person, then anything you say on the internet is more or less null and void.
yes the medium through which you choose to state your opinion decides whether or not it's valid

it's especially invalid when stated through the most efficient and important means of communication on the planet

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If push comes to shove and you don't stand up for what you believe in, then your conviction in the truth as you see it is inherently faulty and lacking substance.
yes your personality and skill at public speaking has anything at all to do with your ideas and whether or not they "have substance"
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Old 09-23-2006, 12:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

What if what you believe in includes only causing a fuss if someone's not going to get physically hurt, or includes not ever causing a fuss to someone who actually knows you?
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Old 09-23-2006, 04:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

This thread is in a complete and total lack of



For chrissakes, really. Listen to yourselves, some of you. You sound like a bunch of bickering 12 year olds.
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Old 09-23-2006, 04:57 PM   #24
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

I agree with Anti.



But to be truthful, I pretty much act the same way online that I do offline. Except i'm probably a little more cautious offline, and i'm sometimes quiet when i'm around people I don't know. Otherwise i'm the same.
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the fact that you're resorting to threatening physical violence says a lot anyway.
Just that you're a piece of shit who can't see reason and instead deserves a fucking beating.
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Old 09-23-2006, 08:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

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Originally Posted by TheRaiRaiEatsBalloons View Post
yes the medium through which you choose to state your opinion decides whether or not it's valid

it's especially invalid when stated through the most efficient and important means of communication on the planet
What you say online has little bearing to anything. If you don't make a stand to what you believe in person, then there is no merit to your beliefs. You either do or do not believe something. You can't believe one thing on the internet and another in person.

Quote:
yes your personality and skill at public speaking has anything at all to do with your ideas and whether or not they "have substance"
Actually, yes. That is why quiet, shy people aren't elected to positions where they can actually affect the course of something.

@ Cavernio:
Good point. I suppose one can make a point to avoid confrontation with friends. I just wonder why that trait is only found in person and not online.

@ Anti-crombie: "ok"
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Old 09-23-2006, 09:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

So what you're saying Laharl is that one's actions should always strongly portray their beliefs? Maybe I just don't strongly enough believe in anything to see a prboelm with stating my beliefs online and stating them in person, which is why I don't have a problem with my beliefs.

Well, seeing people in RL is much more, uh, personal or something, and I think that people generally want to avoid conflict. Do people get more hurt in real life if someone shoots down their beliefs than if someone shoots them down online? Probably yes. Not only could a person become more hurt, the accuser might also develop guilt and feel pretty sorry if the person they're arguing with bursts into tears. No one wants that.

When I think about it, there's a lot more than just that taking affect into WHY people act up more online than in RL. Mainly, the time and space constraint is taken out. Pretend someone pissed you off by what they did earlier on during the day at work or school. Its very possible that you do, in fact, make a fuss about the situation then, with the person right there in front of you, and people around you. Chances are you won't, unless it was something extraordinarily out of line, and even then, yelling and swearing isn't necessary. 30 min later, you run into your friend, and you bitch to them about what just happened to you. You either talk about it for 5 min, and then you switch the subject, or you've only got 5 min to see them. You've ranted already, everything's done, finito, you're not thinking about it anymore, you're not pissed off still.
But what if you didn't happen to see your friend. Instead, you go to a computer somewhere and make a blog entry or say something in a forum you frequent. You make the initial post. This post is probably just as angry as what you would have told your friend, cept they're not there. But now, instead of talking about it, and its done, its sitting somewhere for everyone to read. Someone else reads what you've written, and disagrees. Because you happened to be so pissed at the time, they respond with equal vehemence at it. Now, a day later, when you go back to your post, you're not only instantly reminded of that incident, already making you upset again, but then you happen to read what someone else wrote. Of course, this just makes you more pissed, and now you make a post. This cycle can continue for quite sometime. Why? Because you're constantly reminded of what has happened. You can go back and cite what someone else said and did because it's right there. You don't have to rely on your memory, you will never argue so much that you'll forget what you were arguing about (which I'm sure has happened to more than just me in person) because you'll go back to refresh yourself. Also, no one stays angry for hours and hours in person; the emotion eventually dies down for awhile. RL has natural end points to arguments.
Secondly, if you're going to bother reading forums or surfing the net, you're going to be looking for something interesting. Controversy is interesting, whether you like it or not. So even if you're not feeling particularly upset about something, or are feeling strongly about anything in particular, you may just want to read about a particular topic, and as an outsider, upon reading an escalating argument, can easily get drawn in themselves. It's not that people will so much act as they wouldn't in real life, but more that the internet creates more intense, long-lasting situations which would otherwise never occur. But that's just my take on it.
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

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Originally Posted by Laharl View Post
What you say online has little bearing to anything. If you don't make a stand to what you believe in person, then there is no merit to your beliefs. You either do or do not believe something. You can't believe one thing on the internet and another in person.
If someone believes strongly in something like, freedom of expression, but lives in a fascist dictatorship where anyone found expressing their opinion (one that goes against the teachings and ideals of the government) is killed, imprisoned, or otherwise tortured, does that make their belief in free speech invalid if they do not stand up for it?
And is that contradictory, does that make them a coward? I believe you'd say it would, but there is a distinct difference between cowardice and intelligence, and humans are inbred with a sense of self-preservation. All animals are.
I realize that you would be correct in stating that the stated scenario shows, to some extent, cowardice, since a person who did not stand up to their government was probably doing so for fear of their own well-being or their loved ones' well-being. This is admirable in some respects, but if things were truly as bad as I have stated above, we could not expect to let only those who have nothing to lose in life fight our battles for us.
The thing is, surely anyone who has enough freedom to feel secure in stating their opinions over the internet or through any other media without being killed, tortured, or imprisoned, will be willing (and ready) to do so. And like you said, there is a slim chance that many of these people talking online will ever meet each other in real life, so why would it matter what someone thousands of miles away thinks of you? Anyone who you have actually met in person would know better, and even if you still act like a prick in real life and they acknowledge that, someone else's feelings are no justification to bend your own words so that they magically are found inoffensive by everybody.
If we all cared about every single person's feelings, even those whom we have not met (and never will meet), we would comply to the downfall of self-expression and truth, and giving that up is far more tragic than having it taken away by any dictatorship.
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Old 09-24-2006, 11:25 AM   #28
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

pretty much the only difference for me is that on the internet im more likely to warm-up to a stranger than in real life.

All in all: people are usually more or less the same from when they're on the internet to when they're walking through school.
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Old 09-24-2006, 04:28 PM   #29
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Jew View Post
If someone believes strongly in something like, freedom of expression, but lives in a fascist dictatorship where anyone found expressing their opinion (one that goes against the teachings and ideals of the government) is killed, imprisoned, or otherwise tortured, does that make their belief in free speech invalid if they do not stand up for it?
And is that contradictory, does that make them a coward? I believe you'd say it would, but there is a distinct difference between cowardice and intelligence, and humans are inbred with a sense of self-preservation. All animals are.
I realize that you would be correct in stating that the stated scenario shows, to some extent, cowardice, since a person who did not stand up to their government was probably doing so for fear of their own well-being or their loved ones' well-being. This is admirable in some respects, but if things were truly as bad as I have stated above, we could not expect to let only those who have nothing to lose in life fight our battles for us.
The thing is, surely anyone who has enough freedom to feel secure in stating their opinions over the internet or through any other media without being killed, tortured, or imprisoned, will be willing (and ready) to do so. And like you said, there is a slim chance that many of these people talking online will ever meet each other in real life, so why would it matter what someone thousands of miles away thinks of you? Anyone who you have actually met in person would know better, and even if you still act like a prick in real life and they acknowledge that, someone else's feelings are no justification to bend your own words so that they magically are found inoffensive by everybody.
If we all cared about every single person's feelings, even those whom we have not met (and never will meet), we would comply to the downfall of self-expression and truth, and giving that up is far more tragic than having it taken away by any dictatorship.
If your LIFE is in danger, that's another story all-together, man. There's a point in showing an extreme, and then showing an extreme that literally completely alters the situation.

We live in the United States (or Canada, and I think a few from various places in Europe) as far as I know, people that attend the FFR forums. I can't think of any first world country that limits free speech with death penalties for going against the grain of the ideals of the majority.

I also never said to magically be innofensive to everyone. Look at my reputation on these forums. I'm rather loud and obnoxious with the things I believe are correct. I'm also rather loud and obnoxious in person when something wrong is taking place and I'm the only one around that will speak up against it. My whole point is to be yourself in ALL aspects of life. Using the internet as a forum to get your opinions voice simply because you know there will be no retribution of ANY kind in your real life is two-faced.
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:17 PM   #30
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

Being an asshole on the internet and soft-spoken in real life can still mean you're "being yourself" all the time. Just because you choose to keep part of yourself under wraps at certain times doesn't make it any less a part of you.

And obviously everyone posting on here is from America/Canada/other generally “free” countries, where free speech isn't punishable in such ways as stated before. If they weren't in a free country, they wouldn't be here posting, I was just saying that even though you don't speak up for an idea, it can still be a good idea.
If you truly believe in it and standing up for the idea doesn't have any bad consequences on your life, you should stand up for it. If you're better off not speaking up (for whatever reason) not talking about it isn't two-faced.

Also, I feel this thread is going to start getting repetitive... more so than it already has. I'll just say that what one considers cowardice is completely the opinion of that person. And, seeing as we all have the right to our opinions in this country, and the gist of them have been duly stated in this thread, I bid you adieu.
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:00 PM   #31
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

I finally found the penny-arcade I've been looking for.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Pretty much what I've been getting at in picture form.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:38 PM   #32
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

I would say everything I say on here to you in person because I know more ways to break another's arm or dislocate another's shoulder that if one way doesn't work, I can use another. Then you wouldn't be able to type your gay **** on this gay ****. Haha, ******.
PS Sorry Casey for ruinin your thread, felt like it had to be said.
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Old 09-26-2006, 08:48 PM   #33
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

Point proven Laharl. But not from your link, but from ImnotmentalImAlden.
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Old 09-27-2006, 07:48 PM   #34
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

I have vented online in the forums not because I am a coward in real life but because I needed some anonymous opinions. I HAVE talked to people in real life about my situation but I just needed another outlet and another source for advice. About changing your personality online... Everyone does it. You can't say you are 100% yourself online because you just can't do it. I'm not saying everyone becomes jackasses when they are online but you can't express yourself as easily so you have to compensate. This whole thread really is a waste of time just because you are aruging over opinions that cannot be proved with solid evidence. Stop bickering unless you are like this in real life too. OH THE IRONY.
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Old 09-27-2006, 09:12 PM   #35
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

I bicker about many things in real life until I've had the cut-off, and even then...
Also, there's nothing wrong with arguing over opinions. If people didn't argue over unprovable opinions, then there'd be no arguments at all, now would there be? What's wrong with knowing the opinion of someone else anyways? You obviously didn't think it was a complete waste of time, or else you wouldn't have voiced your opinion in the first place. Besides, what sort of forum discussion isn't a waste of time, really.

I actually find the opposite about being able to express myself a lot of the time. (Although with some people, its better in person). I'm far more articulate when I actually think what I want to say through. I think I'm more myself online than what I am in person.

I don't get this 100% being yourself really though anyways. What on earth does 'be yourself' mean anyways? What, you're not yourself if you choose to not speak up about an issue? You're not yourself if you choose you'd like to dress in the latest fashions? Being myself means that I can choose to put on any persona I want, including following the crowd. If I don't try to BE something, then my true self is a wallowing, lazy, selfish person. I'd rather not be that.
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Old 09-27-2006, 09:19 PM   #36
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

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I somewhat disagree here.

The internet is an extension of your RL self because that is undeniably you behind those words. If you're an asshole or generally just a bad person on the internet, it's not because something magically changes in you once you open up IE, no, it's because there's a part of you which is actually a bad person. That part of you is suppressed most of the time because being a bad person is generally unacceptable, but you generally don't have to answer to your actions on the internet (barring getting Wenzeled, but that's an extreme case). So you only act out when you can't get in trouble. What's that called? Oh yeah, cowardice.

You're right in that nobody can tell you what you can or can't be on the internet, but how you act online most certainly reflects who you are, same as how you act in real life.

I guess what I'm getting at is that being on the internet doesn't give you a free pass to be an asshole and then completely excuse it because you were online (an excuse I've seen way too many times here, and it sickens me). No, you may be able to avoid the face rearranging for which you asked, but your actions to merit it won't be wiped off your character record.
I do not see "it's the internet" as a legitimate excuse for being an asshole, but, I do see it as a free pass to say your true beliefs. My post was not about people who are assholes, but people who might be extremely shy in real life who find the opportunity to be outgoing on the internet because they find people who they can connect with more. Primarily I see forums as a means of enjoyment, I'm not saying they should be used to get your sick kicks, but if you want to pretend to be religious in real life when in reality you're a satanist and everyone on the internet knows about it, that's completely acceptable!

I see the internet as a seperate playing field from real life, if you're an asshole on the internet, and I only know you on the internet, then you're an asshole, period. If you're an asshole in real life, and I only know you as a nice guy on the internet, then you're a nice guy, period.

I kind of agree with you, except on the part that internet is an "extention" of real life, for me, it's not. The internet is completely seperate, I know different people on the internet, I talk about different things, and I do act somewhat differently in general (not more or less of an asshole, just slightly differently) and I don't think there is anything wrong with having two personalities. I think there is something wrong with being an asshole to others, regardless of the medium, but I don't think that being an asshole in one part of your life means you are automatically an asshole in the other.

@Laharl: I don't agree with all your religious topics and stuff, but if you're willing to make a good topic, I'm willing to make a good post.
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Old 09-27-2006, 09:32 PM   #37
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

I don't ask for people to agree with what I believe when it comes to religion. I just ask them to put the same time and effort into discovering Truth and Universal Law as I have before they start to call me stupid and ignorant, because I am neither, ESPECIALLY for the reason they claim I am.

Anyway, on your last point, Hr2:

I don't see why it should be "a seperate playing field." As Guido said, it's still undeniably you at the keyboard. It's you typing the letters. You either believe them or you don't, and if you don't believe the things you're typing, then [i]why bother[i]?

Just as any author can't help but write a novel which expresses some idea they believe in, it's not possible to forge an online persona which is not you.
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Old 09-27-2006, 09:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

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can't help but
BAD LAHARL

NO COOKIE
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Old 09-27-2006, 10:05 PM   #39
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

Wait, what?

What did I do? I am confused.
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Old 09-28-2006, 02:43 AM   #40
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Default Re: Internet Cowardice

Listen, it is the internet.

The fact that people can say what they want under an umbrella of anonimity draws a ton of people who want to vent or generally act different from what they otherwise would. It's like going to a car show and wondering why so many car enthusiasts are there. Now, does this make it wrong to act differently on the internet than in real life? Nope, demanding a person to behave on the internet as in IRL is stupid. Why should someones IRL personality affect they way they socialize online. Does that make them "fake"? Only if you believer that real life is the standard that people should be judged by online.

However, on a personal note, I pretty much act like I do IRL. Dumb humor, occasional flukes of wit and a general nonchalance toward everything in general.
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