|
|
#1 |
|
Environmentally Friendly
Join Date: May 2003
Location: In transit
Age: 34
Posts: 6,929
|
Most people say they love freedom. How much do they really love it?
Ask yourself the following questions: ------------- Planning for your retirement. 1. I want my employer to provide me with a pension plan. 2. I want the government to take something out of every one of my paychecks and then pay it back to me in monthly payments after I reach retirement age. 3. I'm perfectly willing to save some money toward my retirement years out of each and every paycheck and I want my employer and the government to butt out. If I fail to finance my retirement years adequately I'll have nobody to blame but myself. Desecrating the American Flag 1. I believe the Bill of Rights was written by men to tell government what it can and cannot do. Even though I strongly disapprove of anyone desecrating our Flag, I realize the First Amendment was written to protect unpopular expressions, not ones that everyone is going to agree with. 2. I believe that our Flag is the symbol of our country, and anyone who desecrates it ought to be punished harshly. To that end I approve of a new Constitutional amendment, the first one since prohibition that would tell us what we can and cannot do, instead of the government. Medical Care 1. My employer should provide me with a health insurance plan covering me and my immediate family. 2. The government should provide taxpayer funded health care for everyone. 3. I should be responsible for providing my own health care and health insurance in a competitive medical marketplace unhindered by government mandates and regulations. Health Insurance 1. The government should tell health insurance companies what they must and what they cannot cover in their policies. 2. I wish to be free to negotiate with health insurance companies in order to find the best price for my policy by including matters I wish to insure against, and excluding health matters, like drug and alcohol abuse, which are of no concern to me. Having No Health Insurance 1. If I have no health insurance the government should provide me emergency health care paid for by the taxpayers. 2. If I have no health insurance and the taxpayers are compelled to pay for any of my health care the taxpayers should be reimbursed through the seizure and sale of all of my assets. I have no claim on the property of others for the purpose of paying for my medical needs. Choosing a doctor 1. I'm perfectly willing to rely on private accreditation organizations to tell me who is properly trained in the delivery of medical services. After conferring with those accreditation organizations, like the American Medical Association, I want to be free to chose any person I want for any medical purpose I see fit. 2. I want the government to tell me who I can seek medical services from. Wages and Employment 1. I realize that in the free enterprise marketplace I have something to sell just as to all other individuals and businesses do. My product is my physical and intellectual labor. I should be left absolutely free to negotiate a price for my physical and intellectual labor with any prospective employer free of government interference. The only role for the government in my relationship with my employer would be to provide a means to enforce contracts between us. 2. I want the government to set a minimum wage below which I would not be free to work. I also want the government to set my working hours, how I am to be paid for overtime, family leave options and my vacation periods, I recognize that the most important task I shall have as a human being will be to nurture and raise my child. With that in mind: 1. I want the government to seize my money through taxes and to use those taxes to set up a system of government schools to which I shall be compelled to send my child. I will be free, if I wish, to send my child to a private school, but the government will not let me have any of my money back to pay for it. 2. I want the government to back out of the picture and allow me to accept the responsibility for the education of my child free of government interference and mandates. Knowing that the more despotic a government becomes the more that government tries to control the dissemination of information. I also know that most American rely on the broadcast media for their news. Therefore: 1. I want the government to continue to license the operation of all radio and television stations and to regulate their conduct so that they don't broadcast against the common interest. 2. I want the broadcast media in this country to have the full First Amendment rights granted to the printed media. I am a devoutly religious person and my religious feelings include strongly felt opinions on what other people should and should not do in their private lives. 1. I want the government to regulate the sexual conduct between consenting adults so that said conduct will be in keeping with my personal sense of what is right and what is wrong. 2. I may be disgusted by what some people do to and with each other in the privacy of their own homes, but I do not wish for the government to prevent those perverts from doing whatever perverted things they like to do to each other. Even though I drink alcohol and smoke nicotine: 1. I want the government to make sure that nobody uses any substance that I find personally offensive. Marijuana, for instance. 2. I do not believe that the government should be involved in what people do, and that includes what people smoke, in privacy of their own homes. I just don't want to have to pay for it when they screw themselves up good. You need some legal advice. 1. 1. You want the government to tell you who you can go to for legal advice. If you go to someone for legal advice who is not approved by the government, and that person charges you to prepare a will or to draw up a lawsuit for you, you want the government to punish that person with a heavy fine, or perhaps some jail time, even though you freely entered into an agreement with him for that advice and legal help. 2. 2. You are willing to use your own common sense in choosing someone to represent you before a court, either someone who is recommended by a private accreditation agency such as the American Bar Association, or someone who is otherwise known to you to be informed and capable as to legal affairs, and you are willing to abide by the choice you made. You're going to have a child. You understand that having a child will be physically, emotionally and financially challenging. So ..... 1. You want the government to used money seized from taxpayers to pay for child care for your child. 2. You want the government to force your employer to give you 12 weeks off from the job in order to care for your new child, and you want your job to be waiting for you when you return. 3. You know that you had the child, not the taxpayers and not your employer, and you are willing to bear the responsibility for raising that child without the government imposing any cost, burden or duty on anyone else on your behalf. You want to ride your motorcycle without a helmet. 1. You're willing to take full responsibility for your decision, including the possibility that you might die if you crack your head open and you don't have enough money to pay for the medical care you'll need and there's no private charity willing to step up and cover your costs because they consider your injuries to be essentially self-inflicted. 2. You want to be free to ride without a helmet, but if you do happen to sustain a horrible injury you want the government to force the taxpayers to be responsible for your health care. -------- Discuss. |
|
|
|
|
|
#2 |
|
FFR Player
|
I didn't read the whole thing, but freedom to do what you want and freedom from government intervention are two different things. I believe a government should exist to make life better for everyone who lives in the country, and it is up to the general public to decide governmental policies. However, when a governmental policy violates personal freedom I think that it is wrong.
Having pension plans helps people, one way to ensure people are "free" from government help is to simply allow people to opt out of programs. Sometimes though, personal freedoms need to be sacrificed for the good of everyone. For example, drugs directly linked to violence (gang or personal) should not be legal. But, I also do not believe someone should be jailed for possession without intent to sell. Marijuana is not linked to violence, hallucinogens are not linked to violence, and ecstasy is not linked to violence, drugs of this sort should not be illegal, but crack should be illegal because it has been the cause of gang violence and personal violence in the past.
__________________
Last edited by Hr2; 07-27-2006 at 07:41 AM.. |
|
|
|
|
|
#3 |
|
Banned
|
I typed a long reply to Hr2's post arguing something only to realize he stated what I was arguing in the one part of the post I skimmed over. =\
As for the original topic at hand... I agree with Hr2's first paragraph. |
|
|
|
|
|
#4 | ||
|
is against custom titles
|
Haha, chardish, I think some of your choices are a bit slanted. Regardless, though...
Planning for your retirement. 3. I'm perfectly willing to save some money toward my retirement years out of each and every paycheck and I want my employer and the government to butt out. If I fail to finance my retirement years adequately I'll have nobody to blame but myself. Desecrating the American Flag 1. I believe the Bill of Rights was written by men to tell government what it can and cannot do. Even though I strongly disapprove of anyone desecrating our Flag, I realize the First Amendment was written to protect unpopular expressions, not ones that everyone is going to agree with. Medical Care 3. I should be responsible for providing my own health care and health insurance in a competitive medical marketplace unhindered by government mandates and regulations. Health Insurance 2. I wish to be free to negotiate with health insurance companies in order to find the best price for my policy by including matters I wish to insure against, and excluding health matters, like drug and alcohol abuse, which are of no concern to me. Having No Health Insurance 2. If I have no health insurance and the taxpayers are compelled to pay for any of my health care the taxpayers should be reimbursed through the seizure and sale of all of my assets. I have no claim on the property of others for the purpose of paying for my medical needs. Choosing a doctor 1. I'm perfectly willing to rely on private accreditation organizations to tell me who is properly trained in the delivery of medical services. After conferring with those accreditation organizations, like the American Medical Association, I want to be free to chose any person I want for any medical purpose I see fit. Wages and Employment 1. I realize that in the free enterprise marketplace I have something to sell just as to all other individuals and businesses do. My product is my physical and intellectual labor. I should be left absolutely free to negotiate a price for my physical and intellectual labor with any prospective employer free of government interference. The only role for the government in my relationship with my employer would be to provide a means to enforce contracts between us. *A point of note is that the Chicago city council is forcing Wal-Mart to pay over double the federal minimum wage to their employees. Disgusting.* I recognize that the most important task I shall have as a human being will be to nurture and raise my child. With that in mind: 2. I want the government to back out of the picture and allow me to accept the responsibility for the education of my child free of government interference and mandates. *However, I feel I need to clarify that I feel a national standard which will show whether or not a person has enough education to be "accredited" (that is, if you're homeschooled or go to a private school, you still have to be able to demonstrate, through a test or whatever, that you actually have learned a proper amount) needs to exist.* Knowing that the more despotic a government becomes the more that government tries to control the dissemination of information. I also know that most American rely on the broadcast media for their news. Therefore: 2. I want the broadcast media in this country to have the full First Amendment rights granted to the printed media. I am a devoutly religious person and my religious feelings include strongly felt opinions on what other people should and should not do in their private lives. 2. I may be disgusted by what some people do to and with each other in the privacy of their own homes, but I do not wish for the government to prevent those perverts from doing whatever perverted things they like to do to each other. Even though I drink alcohol and smoke nicotine: 1. I want the government to make sure that nobody uses any substance that I find personally offensive. Marijuana, for instance. *Sorry, but as much as I recognize the idea of legalizing drugs, I just can't support it. If it stayed in the home, then I wouldn't have a problem, but most drugs don't. Marijuana has the best case for legalization, but you still won't see me supporting it.* You need some legal advice. 2. You are willing to use your own common sense in choosing someone to represent you before a court, either someone who is recommended by a private accreditation agency such as the American Bar Association, or someone who is otherwise known to you to be informed and capable as to legal affairs, and you are willing to abide by the choice you made. You're going to have a child. You understand that having a child will be physically, emotionally and financially challenging. So ..... 3. You know that you had the child, not the taxpayers and not your employer, and you are willing to bear the responsibility for raising that child without the government imposing any cost, burden or duty on anyone else on your behalf. You want to ride your motorcycle without a helmet. 1. You're willing to take full responsibility for your decision, including the possibility that you might die if you crack your head open and you don't have enough money to pay for the medical care you'll need and there's no private charity willing to step up and cover your costs because they consider your injuries to be essentially self-inflicted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
Even if they allow me to leave the program, it's still problematic that they think they should take my money in the first place. Also, it encourages government dependency and financial dependency, when a good goal for America is financial independence. Quote:
--Guido http://andy.mikee385.com |
||
|
|
|
|
|
#5 |
|
Resident Penguin
|
Planning for your retirement.
4. I'm perfectly willing to save some money toward my retirement years out of each and every paycheck however if the government and or my employer wants to provide me with social security or a pension plan or whatever, then more power to them. Furthermore, I believe that pension plans are completely compatible with the libertarian freemarket type bs that this list is all about, as firms that provide them are sure to have happier more productive employees, attracting even more employees, creating competition for jobs and decreasing wages, decreasing that firm's costs. Desecrating the American Flag 3. I believe the Bill of Rights was written by men to tell government what it can and cannot do. Even though I strongly do not care at all about anyone desecrating our Flag, I realize the First Amendment was written to protect unpopular expressions, not ones that everyone is going to agree with. Medical Care See retirement, but in this case I do not think that the government should be the sole provider of health care... but if it wants to enter the marketplace on its own or act as a default for those unable to afford private health care, then by all means, it can go ahead. Health Insurance The problem of having no government regulation here is that some types of drug and alcohol abuse (the example cited) might also affect other individuals, and the welfare of the state in general, which is what the government is to protect. Having No Health Insurance 3. If I have no health insurance the government should provide me emergency health care paid for by the taxpayers which should then be taken out of my income tax refund check until it is paid off, or some other system. Choosing a doctor 3. Private, but with government oversight in order to fight collusive tendencies and to act as watchdogs for other kinds of harmful behavior by the companies. Wages and Employment A) Too late to go back on minimum wage (prices and wages are not downwardly flexible). B) Only in perfect conditions (which by definition don't exist) would having no minimum wage work. I recognize that the most important task I shall have as a human being will be to nurture and raise my child. With that in mind: A) no I don't recognize the importance of that task B) public education is investment in labor, essentially, making the people of the state more productive. there's too many barriers to new firms entering the education market for it to be effective as an entirely private system, and far too much potential for monopolization and collusion. Knowing that the more despotic a government becomes the more that government tries to control the dissemination of information. I also know that most American rely on the broadcast media for their news. Therefore: 3. I want the broadcast media in this country to have the full First Amendment rights granted to the printed media but there needs to be recourse for people to challenge the presentation of material deemed "factual" or "news" by the broadcast company. This doesn't exist today to the extent that it's needed and I wish it did. I am NOT a devoutly religious person and my religious feelings do NOT include strongly felt opinions on what other people should and should not do in their private lives. 2. I may be disgusted by what some people do to and with each other in the privacy of their own homes, but I do not wish for the government to prevent those perverts (rofl) from doing whatever perverted things they like to do to each other. Chardish did you seriously get this from some conservative/libertarian chain mail thing? Perverts? Honestly... Even though I don't drink that much alcohol and do not smoke nicotine: Any drug that has a significant potential to harm others not taking the drug should be banned. Otherwise go nuts. You need some legal advice. Only lawyers should practice law, and since everyone has access to a state appointed representative, I really don't see any glaring flaws in the system as it currently stands. You're going to have a child. You understand that having a child will be physically, emotionally and financially challenging. So ..... **** kids You want to ride your motorcycle without a helmet. I don't care about motorcycles. |
|
|
|
|
|
#6 |
|
FFR Player
|
penis XD
__________________
but for now... postCount++
|
|
|
|
|
|
#7 | ||
|
is against custom titles
|
Quote:
Quote:
Regarding the health care and pension plans and whatnot, what you describe is more of an opt-in program, where the government is just another competitor. The main idea is to make it so that your money goes to the government voluntarily. I also don't know why you call the free market BS... --Guido http://andy.mikee385.com |
||
|
|
|
|
|
#8 | |
|
FFR Player
|
Quote:
Now, I'm from Canada. When I was in Canada I went to two different schools, a public Catholic school, and a private school. Although I only stayed in the Catholic school for 2 or 3 years, my sister went there and I knew others who went there. Now, thisis just a small thing that helps highlight the differences between too much bureaucracy and a system that is running smoothly... Private School If you were sick, your mom phoned the school and they said "ok we'll mark him off the list". If you wanted to go for a vacation, you went to the teacher and said "I'm going on vacation to hawaii for a week" and you were excused for the week. Public Catholic School If you were sick, your mom phoned the school and they excused you for the day. If you wanted to go on vacation, you brought in a signed note from your mother and gave it to the secretary, you were then excused for the rest of the week. American Public School If you are sick, your mom phones the school, picks up a form, and needs to get it signed by the doctor to prove you were sick, otherwise it counts as a zero for the day. If you are going on a vacation you need to sign a bunch of legal documents, and if you don't they will actually fine you money for truancy. As you can see, in Canadian schools, the schools were like "handle your own affairs dawg" while in the US schools they're like "we need to know exactly where you are at all times, legal punishment follows if you do not comply." ------ Imporant Part of Post Below This Line ------ Anyways, what I'm saying is not about the schools at all, but the mentality. People should be able to handle their own affairs. Canada's government has free healthcare, so that's another problem. I believe that the government should allow people to handle their own affairs, while it does add more room for taking advantage of the system, when they do they are generally only going to hurt themselves (as in skipping school.). Like my mom said, it's the parents responsibility to raise their kids how they want to, the government should trust my judgement because they don't know my kids, and I know them better than anyone else. And while I think that safety measures to keep the system running smoothly need to be taken (medicare for seniors, pension plans, etc. to keep from ending up with our entire old people population being poor as fuk) Some things should not be opt out/in, I know we were talking about in government class (lol) not being able to opt out of public education or roads. Because everyone uses them and they're essential to our country running smoothly. Things like a pension plan fall into this category by keeping our old people alive, you shouldn't starve to death just because you didn't plan accordingly.
__________________
Last edited by Hr2; 07-27-2006 at 04:11 PM.. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
#9 |
|
FFR Simfile Author
|
The second one doesn't work if you aren't American.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#10 |
|
Resident Penguin
|
I call the free market bs because it doesn't work unless certain basic conditions are in place (and these conditions definitionally never exist):
1. Free flow of information. 2. Free flow of natural resources. 3. Consumers are rational. 4. Probably some others but I only took intro econ and that was over a year ago. What isn't bs is a mixed economy, which is what we live in now. And in general I have problems with the whole premise of libertarianism. When libertarianism gets taken to the extreme, there is no need for government, since libertarianism is all about limiting the role of government and maximizing the role of individuals. So in the perfectly libertarian free market world everyone lives in their own little house, defends their own property with their own weapons, saves their own money, etc etc. The main problem I have with this is that things like art and science suffer. Things that require a huge societal input of resources suffer, because people (let's face it) are retarded, shortsighted, and care mostly about themselves (human nature, but that's no excuse). Things like governments exist to facilitate the flow of resources to things that benefit society as a whole. The more you limit what the government controls, the more you limit how much benefit it can provide. Now obviously that's generalized to the max. I recognize the presence of (and, indeed, need for) the competing forces of limited government vs expanded government, individualism vs laziness. What we have here is a question of where to draw the line, and I draw mine not nearly as far towards libertarianism as you guys prefer. And guido, my phrasing was poor, I meant to mean that I don't recognize the raising of a child as the most important thing I'll ever do in my life. I figure it's your contribution to society that matters most, and that is not necessarily by means of a child. |
|
|
|
|
|
#11 |
|
FFR Player
|
woohoo freedom... I don't have anything smart to say about it so I'll just say freedom is good. With freedom you can... be free, you can be believe in Jesus or Budha or Chardish, you can drink like 300 different kinds of every flavour beverage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#12 | |
|
FFR Player
|
Quote:
Every type of governement has to be taken on an individual basis and assessment of the countries current financial situation and the needs of the citizens. If you live in a small and rich country, then free healthcare may be for you. If you live in America, privatized healthcare works well. If the government has enough money to fund the arts and sciences, it should. If the government does not have enough money, then it should not waste its money. Research in sciences pays off in the short and long term, while art and culture pays off in the long term in many ways. As for the US, we have the money to fund the arts and sciences, but they are not a main concern right now, there are many other problems that should be fixed first. While having a strong military is essential, I believe military funding should be scaled back after all this middle east ****e is over with. The only other country who could even come close to comparing technology with the USA is probably Israel (which is why they can flatten anyone in war and the entire middle east can't do **** about them) and even then who knows. If the US scaled back its military funding even by a paltry 50,000,000,000 and put it into sciences, well that would be coo.
__________________
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#13 |
|
FFR Player
|
Oh my sweet heaven, I've found fellow Libertarians! And they're Catholic!
I've proceeded to the point of freedom loving that I'm getting towards anarcho-capitalist. However, I still think that there are some things that need to be done through a government. For example, the 4th of July brought up a new one for me. Fireworks. Little private fireworks shows are not only dangerous, but costly and not nearly as impressive. If everyone in the town paid maybe a dollar or two a year to fund a nice fireworks show put on by professionals, we can avoid the cost of burnt down houses and singed eyebrows as well as get a damn nice show. The same thing can be applied to certain things like, oh say, aircraft carriers and national defense ("Look, you're going to have to pay $X to fund your own protection here, and if you don't want to pay it you can live somewhere else, dammit!"). I am going to have to point out, though, that when the government mettles with anything at all that the public does not absolutely need, such as national defense, or absolutely agree to, such as fireworks and roads, things just get ugly. Now, sure, some people might say "but what if I don't see the fireworks show" or "but what if I don't drive that way". My reply would be "Someone else does, and think of the benefit you gain from them not being bitchy about there not being a road or a cool fireworks show." In any case, I do adore my freedom, and I think that our wonderful nation is certainly not as free as it thinks. I would fight to defend all freedoms we don't have, whether it be social or legal to my own death. However, I will never kill for it. That would be taking someone else's freedom to live, wouldn't it? |
|
|
|
|
|
#14 |
|
FFR Player
|
I got nouthing smart say either, i don't know what its like not to have freedoom and we all take in forgranted. Becaus There's thousands of kid who kill just to have a day of freedom we have to act more resposable with our freedom. but freedom to me is diffrent to you guys i am only 13 so i am not so much into the work force yet and i don't have to pay any bill or gas money or anything like that but still we have it alot better then alot of places in this world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#15 |
|
FFR Player
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Nowhere
Age: 31
Posts: 203
|
Sadly freedom Has limitations on freedom therefore freedom is still just a dream that has yet to be realized...this dream is one that i think most have given up on...
|
|
|
|
|
|
#16 |
|
Old-School Player
|
... freedom is an illusion. Unless you live in Iceland.
But yeah, let's say i'm not too keen on our current system where people get arrested for wearing anti-bush shirts and liquids are taken from airplane passengers only to have them all mixed into one main container at the checkpoint. The only place one can ever be sure the are free is their mind. Remember: sometimes the only way to save your sanity is through insanity. |
|
|
|
|
|
#17 |
|
sunshine and rainbows
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 38
Posts: 1,987
|
I'm all for freedom. But I don't think 'freedom' should be taken to the extreme that that somehow means that we should be self-sufficient.
Firstly, the ideal government IS run by the people. There's something gone terribly wrong when whack loads of people are against a DEMOCRATIC government and most of the policies it has. Government is not just Federal/national either. There's provincial (the state), and then the individual people who lead ridings (I don't know what its called in the states), and mayors. These are people who are more closely in tune with what's going on, and hopefully address the more immediate, closer to home issue about neighbourhoods and so forth. Chardish's view is obviously one that the government is restricting freedom. Personally, I'd hate to live in the states right now, because I think its starting to do just that. Bush has essentially given himself the right of military rule of the country as far as I can see. However, I also think that the view Chardish is holding is extreme, and I'd choose 1 for most of the answers, subjective wording and all. I'm glad Canada has healthcare, funded education, public roads, labor laws, etc. Labor laws especially protect me. I'm damned happy that I'm not ever going to have to worry about being payed less than minimum wage, (although I think it should be higher than it is). In terms of having government funded things like healthcare, anyone who's ever crunched the numbers about this knows that, despite the tons and tons of beaurocracy and waste in government, having a centrally funded program is far cheaper than having individual ones. (I know someone who has done the numbers.) Who needs a plan you say? If you come into any serious health problems, or your kids do, you'd better be well above average wage, or else you'll never be out of debt. Medical expenses are often too expensive for a lot of hard working people to pay individually. This brings me to another point. If healthcare were optional, and people started to opt out, then the entire system would probably break down because of lack of funds. And I get the point that you should be able to sustain yourself, but I think its very selfish to say that people shouldn't get together to help out others. Which is essentially answers 2 or 3 in many cases. Anyone who chooses those want to live in a cut-throat, dog-eat-dog world. I don't want to. I use services which I pay taxes for all the time, but there're services which I don't use. But I'm not about to bitch and complain because I'm paying for rehab for someone who I might possibly hate if I actually knew them. I'm not about to say "No, I'm not going to give you 50 cents so that you can make a public building wheelchair accessible. I'm not in a wheelchair, why do I care?" That's the cruel way I see most of the answers 2 and 3. Instead of fighting your government, you should be actively trying to change it so that it allows you the freedom you want. Instead of things like having to be wealthy to be able to send your kid to a good school, and if you don't have the money, you've got no school or the one which is falling apart with 1 teacher for way too many kids, support someone who's going to improve the education system and who offers a variety of school settings/ideals so that you don't have to be rich to offer your kids something good. Let your local government leader know your preferences in the curriculum. Government is supposed to be there to stop things like businesses have a monopoly over services. Of course, when the government starts to take the place of these businesses, and exploits and controls its people as badly as corporations often do, then there're problems. Socialism rocks. Last edited by Cavernio; 09-6-2006 at 09:11 PM.. |
|
|
|
![]() |
| Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|