Go Back   Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums > General Discussion > Critical Thinking
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-18-2006, 07:44 PM   #21
The_Q
FFR Player
 
The_Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Age: 31
Posts: 4,391
Send a message via AIM to The_Q Send a message via Yahoo to The_Q
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti_Formics
Suicide is not ethical at all. It is the same as killing any person. Except in the case of suicide it is yourself. The only reason I would ever even consider suicide is if, I am going through much pain and in the end, I will die anyway. Otherwise I would not think of killing someone. Even if that person is myself. War,in some cases,is ethical. In Canada and the US, we fought in Afghanistan for, I think,pretty much two reasons;Fairness and Intergrity. War cannot be avoided unless a cease-fire is issued. In some cases,however, war is not right at all. Actually,war,in all cases,is stupid. No one wants to die. Oh yes,there is one other reason I would suicide. If a loved one of mine passed away, not like Mother,Father,but wife, and I was old. Then I would ask them to pull the plug.
No, suicide is NOT just like killing another person. If you are killing another person, you are deciding for them whether they get to live or not, a choice they have on their own (because they have the right to their own life). If you kill yourself, you're killing someone who has decided, hopefully, that it would be better off to be dead and chose that path. There is no violation of any right here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut
Suicide, along with killing other people and abortion DO all fall into the category of life termination, however, the difference is in each person's will. Take for example a soldier in battle. Chances are that person does NOT want to die. Now, a person who is committing suicide is completely different: they WANT to die, very much. For this reason the 2 can not be compared effectively on the subject of ethics
I disagree with you on the war bit. I think that if there is a soldier who is in combat, they went into that job knowing the risks involved. They may not necessarily want to die but they're ok with it if it happens. In other words, the benefit of serving is greater than the cost of their lives. However, I agree with you on the suicide bit full on.

Q
The_Q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2006, 09:41 PM   #22
Coolgamer
Old-School Player
FFR Veteran
 
Coolgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Age: 33
Posts: 675
Send a message via AIM to Coolgamer Send a message via MSN to Coolgamer Send a message via Skype™ to Coolgamer
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Anticrombie0909, you've managed to make me smile today. Lately, that's been a rarity. I take back any feelings of ill will between us. (I've REALLY been under a lot of stress in the real world, as you might gather from my web page.)

I like where this is going, since it raises interesting points when you think about it. In a way, it's like the argument over eating meat or being a vegan. Is it immoral to take an animals life? (Work with me here, I said "like").

Also, there are many Middle-Eastern religions that account for suicide.

Japan, of course, has seppuku, for those who wish to die with honor.

Many others allow for self-starvation as a suicide method, the reasoning being if you have enough will power to die that way, then it must be important to you.

These all apply to non-medical situations, by the way.

Also, if someone really needs help and fails a suicide attempt, is it really a good idea to punish them with jail-time? I myself think that would make the depression worse. Prisons aren't exactly the safest places, and they'd probably find another way to try while confined.

... where was I? Oh yes, trying to sum up this latest string of musings. It all boils down to if you believe you know what's morally "right" and "wrong", and how you know it to be so, be it personal belief, religion, or whatnot. Then, ask why you can take your beliefs and apply them to others lifes and habits.

Morals are funny. There's no compass, more like a Magic 8-Ball that can end up any which way depending how the person goes. Each person goes down a different path, and we all end up with different sets. (That had to be the worst metaphor ever.)
__________________




Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthlight View Post
St1cky only proves that he has no life and that his parents are alcoholics. They probably abused him with rubber duckies when he was a baby. Why else would you exploit scores on FFR?
Coolgamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 10:42 PM   #23
El_Martini_Kissx33
FFR Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Suicide is most definetly not ethical. There are two types of reasonings when it comes to ethics, there's rule based ethical reasoning and consequence based ethical reasoning.

Rule based ethical reasoning says that you should not do something if it's against a set of rules, laws, etc.

Consequence based ethical reasoning says that you should not do something because of the outcome or reaction to what you do.

Consequently either way, suicide is not ethical NOR reasonable, suicide is morally wrong, a sin, assisted suicides are illegal, therefore suicide is disobeying three different sets of laws, or rules. Also the outcome of a suicide is obviously negative for the entire family and friends that have to deal with the loss and if the person who commited suicide was not 100 percent positive about it, then it is also a negative outcome for them.
El_Martini_Kissx33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 11:49 PM   #24
Kilgamayan
Super Scooter Happy
FFR Simfile Author
 
Kilgamayan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Location, Location.
Age: 36
Posts: 6,584
Send a message via AIM to Kilgamayan
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

I don't necessarily agree with the act itself but as far as I'm concerned it's the person's right to choose.
__________________
I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds.
Kilgamayan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2006, 02:49 PM   #25
T0rajir0u
FFR Player
FFR Simfile Author
 
T0rajir0u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: awsome
Posts: 2,946
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Martini_Kissx33
Rule based ethical reasoning says that you should not do something if it's against a set of rules, laws, etc.
Retarded. Somebody has to decide the rules and they should decide those rules in accordance with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Martini_Kissx33
Consequence based ethical reasoning says that you should not do something because of the outcome or reaction to what you do.

Consequently either way, suicide is not ethical NOR reasonable, suicide is morally wrong, a sin, assisted suicides are illegal, therefore suicide is disobeying three different sets of laws, or rules. Also the outcome of a suicide is obviously negative for the entire family and friends that have to deal with the loss and if the person who commited suicide was not 100 percent positive about it, then it is also a negative outcome for them.
This is too extreme. This kind of logic can be applied to a million different things that fall under the category of "stupid" rather than "immoral." "Immoral" is a much stronger word, and that label needs to be used with more care than it's being used here.

There's also a hint of utilitarianism here, which I personally disagree with because it restricts moral reasoning to one particular scope.

This is the way morality works for a social creature such as a human:

What is most moral is what best preserves the survival of one's social group.

How you choose to define your social group - whether as your nation, your race, or all of humanity; whatever - is up to you. This is responsible for most of the world conflict that has ever occurred ever.

In this sense, consider the very restricted case of old or sick people requesting euthanasia so as to end their lives peacefully and quietly. Since they're about to die anyway, the family does not necessarily suffer more than they would have if the death was natural; they also get the consolation of knowing that the death was painless. Since old or sick people tend not to reproduce, especially if the sickness is terminal, the well-being of the human race is not affected, and in fact, the money saved on superfluous care is actually an economic benefit.

There are a few other cases where suicide is justifiable from several perspectives. They require more attention.
__________________
hehe
T0rajir0u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2006, 07:56 PM   #26
flamingspinach
FFR Player
 
flamingspinach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 269
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

I like how you're both arguing over who is patronizing when neither of you can spell euthanasia

patronized

ps if you think everyone has a basic right to life then everyone should also have a basic right to death, obviously :/

-fs
__________________
flamingspinach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2006, 06:17 PM   #27
Coolgamer
Old-School Player
FFR Veteran
 
Coolgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Age: 33
Posts: 675
Send a message via AIM to Coolgamer Send a message via MSN to Coolgamer Send a message via Skype™ to Coolgamer
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Martini_Kissx33
Suicide is most definetly not ethical. There are two types of reasonings when it comes to ethics, there's rule based ethical reasoning and consequence based ethical reasoning.

Rule based ethical reasoning says that you should not do something if it's against a set of rules, laws, etc.

Consequence based ethical reasoning says that you should not do something because of the outcome or reaction to what you do.

Consequently either way, suicide is not ethical NOR reasonable, suicide is morally wrong, a sin, assisted suicides are illegal, therefore suicide is disobeying three different sets of laws, or rules. Also the outcome of a suicide is obviously negative for the entire family and friends that have to deal with the loss and if the person who commited suicide was not 100 percent positive about it, then it is also a negative outcome for them.

Rules? I know of no rules. Society might have lead you to feel that some things are right and some are wrong, like stealing, but rules are made based on past actions. And, as always, the rules never stop changing. As for it being a sin, that's unproveable unless you have a signed Polaroid of God lying about somewhere. For the record, i'm not relating this next subject to suicide, but your argument (immoral, sin, unethical, and violating the law) sounds exactly like the one that the supporters of racial segregation and current anti-homosexual lobby love to use for their "arguments".

As for the person not being ready, I said several times, we are talking after years of therapy and medication have failed, not a spur-of-the-moment bout of depression.
__________________




Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthlight View Post
St1cky only proves that he has no life and that his parents are alcoholics. They probably abused him with rubber duckies when he was a baby. Why else would you exploit scores on FFR?
Coolgamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2006, 06:24 PM   #28
The_Q
FFR Player
 
The_Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Age: 31
Posts: 4,391
Send a message via AIM to The_Q Send a message via Yahoo to The_Q
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolgamer
Rules? I know of no rules. Society might have lead you to feel that some things are right and some are wrong, like stealing, but rules are made based on past actions.
It's against the law to commit suicide, actually. It's against the rules.

And, as we all know, rules are infallable.

Q
The_Q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2006, 07:54 PM   #29
flamingspinach
FFR Player
 
flamingspinach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 269
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

which totally explains how you can break the rules of spelling and not get struck by lightning 8)
__________________
flamingspinach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2006, 06:50 PM   #30
Coolgamer
Old-School Player
FFR Veteran
 
Coolgamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Age: 33
Posts: 675
Send a message via AIM to Coolgamer Send a message via MSN to Coolgamer Send a message via Skype™ to Coolgamer
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Q
It's against the law to commit suicide, actually. It's against the rules.

And, as we all know, rules are infallable.

Q

I meant that rules are a mindset of society, and are not, shall we say, "set in stone". (Well, according to some religions, ten actually are, but that's beside the point at hand.)

And many rules have been wrong. No blacks allowed in this school. No women are allowed to vote. Slavery is totally fine.
__________________




Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthlight View Post
St1cky only proves that he has no life and that his parents are alcoholics. They probably abused him with rubber duckies when he was a baby. Why else would you exploit scores on FFR?
Coolgamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-1-2006, 09:12 PM   #31
Cavernio
sunshine and rainbows
FFR Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 38
Posts: 1,987
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Why am I not surprised the person whose morality is judged by the law is Texan?
(oops, did I just post that?)

Someone said that religion isn't an issue here. It clearly is. Religion usually defines what is moral or not.
I also think that people dying in wars belongs in this topic, the topic being people dying by someone else's hands. It doesn't really make sense that to kill people during a war for some higher purpose or belief is acceptable, but to kill someone for a personal reason, (in my mind, the personal ones are the ones which actually MATTER because people are what really matter), such as killing someone who raped you, will land you in jail.
I don't live in the US. Do people really get sent to jail for attempted suicide in some states? That's BS. I know its illegal in Canada, but they don't put you in jail. Not only is it immoral, its stupid. Jail is there to separate the people who wreak chaos on society from those who don't, in a supposedly moral, and expensive, way. Some states still believe in executing extreme troublemakers. So tell me, how is putting someone in jail more of a help then just letting them be to try suicide again in terms of societal value? Because we ARE talking about what's best for society here. If they want to get rid of themselves, who are we to stop them?
Of course, I believe in helping out the individual, so that they will eventually not want to kill themselves, but continue living. Its all about the individuals for me, in terms of my morality. Why should we place abstract ideals above the suffering of an individual?
Everyone has their right to choose whether they want to live or not. However, people who do want to commit suicide because they feel horrible should think not only about their personal pain and stopping it, but also about the pain it will cause others they know. They key point here is as little pain as possible, and as much happiness as possible. Even if you're not happy, you can still make others happy. In one way, I see that something's better than nothing, even if that something is usually hurt. But I'm not going to impose on someone that they shouldn't kill themselves, and I'm certainly not going to think them immoral. If its someone I care about, and I'd be given a chance, I'd beg them to not do it, and I'd probably offer all the help I could to try and make them happy again.
Cavernio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-2-2006, 11:48 AM   #32
The_Q
FFR Player
 
The_Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Age: 31
Posts: 4,391
Send a message via AIM to The_Q Send a message via Yahoo to The_Q
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio
Religion usually defines what is moral or not.
In a short answer, no. Morality stems from the natural rights. To infringe upon those rights is immoral. There's really not too much more to it. Now, if someone were to infringe upon their own rights, that's fine, because it was what they wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio"
I also think that people dying in wars belongs in this topic, the topic being people dying by someone else's hands.
The topic is dying at your own will and whether or not it is moral, not at all whether it is moral for others to kill. We know for a fact that that is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio
However, people who do want to commit suicide because they feel horrible should think not only about their personal pain and stopping it, but also about the pain it will cause others they know.
I was wondering when someone would bring this up. I have no idea how to respond, exactly. I still think that if they want to do it, they should do it. The economist in my says they should run a cost benefit analysis first...but even then, that would conflict with their own interest. I hate seeing people die, but if that's what they really want, why should they include others? I would have figured the past commiters included pain to others in their decision making and still did it. It's a really hard subject for me. Friend of mine did this three years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio
Why am I not surprised the person whose morality is judged by the law is Texan?
(oops, did I just post that?)
I will go over this once and only once. My location information is set to Texas because I happen to live in Texas. I am no Texan. I never will be a Texan. My morality is not judged by the law. Never imply otherwise again.

Q
The_Q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-2-2006, 07:09 PM   #33
Cavernio
sunshine and rainbows
FFR Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 38
Posts: 1,987
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Sorry. I missed the sarcasm due to it being typed and I didn't bother associating previous posts you made with this one, which would have made what you said more obvious to me.

MY morality isn't judged by religion. But clearly, to some religious people, it is.
Cavernio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-4-2006, 11:37 AM   #34
Anticrombie0909
FFR Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,683
Send a message via AIM to Anticrombie0909
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Ethics for suicide (and all things) are based on the society and society is based largely on religion.
Ethics are based on personal beliefs, not society. If your personal morality stems reservedly from what society deems appropriate, that's just sad and orwellian in the truest sense of the word.
Anticrombie0909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-4-2006, 12:22 PM   #35
The_Q
FFR Player
 
The_Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Age: 31
Posts: 4,391
Send a message via AIM to The_Q Send a message via Yahoo to The_Q
Default Re: Suicide- Ethical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Campbell
Ethics are based on personal beliefs, not society. If your personal morality stems reservedly from what society deems appropriate, that's just sad and orwellian in the truest sense of the word.
He has a point in so much that religions affect society. This does not support his claim that ethics stem from society and therefore from religion. I hold fast in my belief of natural rights. There are these rights that, no matter where you are, are true. Check the Koran for anything that permits slavery and murder of anyone in the society. Check the Kaballah for anything that permits theft. Last I checked, most religions agreed on three things, and that is that Life, Liberty and Property are sacred things. Hence my argument for natural rights.

I shall slap you with the free market later.

Q
The_Q is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution