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Old 05-12-2017, 12:05 PM   #1
mwes
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Exclamation Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Dear all,

as we all know Chord Cohesion(CC) has long been one of stepmania's feature,meaning that chords from jumps to quads are all counted as one judgement and worth as much points as a single note. Etterna the new build is having plans to remove CC , but the exact implementation is up to debate.

One is having scaling points, where different notes in a single chord can have their own judgement, but the sum of all judgements in a chord still equals to one single note.

The other one is unscaled points, where all notes in a single chord have their own judgement, each note in a chord now has same value as a single note.

Here attached is a strawpoll for you. Please vote and discuss your preferred way of handling scores.


http://www.strawpoll.me/12948928

Last edited by mwes; 05-12-2017 at 12:53 PM.. Reason: sry fr bad en
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Note that i do not represent anyone and just want to get the community's opinion on this
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Why not use the FFR poll function?

anyways I'm very much against the removal of chord cohesion
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Why does the sm community always have an all or nothing attitude to everything
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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Originally Posted by Celirra View Post
Why not use the FFR poll function?

anyways I'm very much against the removal of chord cohesion
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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Originally Posted by Celirra View Post
Why not use the FFR poll function?

anyways I'm very much against the removal of chord cohesion
There was already some votes in sry
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celirra View Post
Why not use the FFR poll function?

anyways I'm very much against the removal of chord cohesion
Maybe because not everyone who plays stepmania posts on this cesspool of a site
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Alright, so first thing worth pointing out is that chord cohesion is likely not going to be done away with altogether to begin with. It is currently a preference.ini value that can be set either to 0 or 1, and honestly, given the fact that the removal of CC is clearly a highly-divisive topic, I very much doubt that it would be forcefully carried out in any and all future build releases to come.


The second thing to address lies in how this will affect the average newcomer to the game.

All it takes at this point is, "hey, should I play with CC on or off?" from such a person in order for hell to break loose, in light of the plethora of different conflicting answers that they would receive - lurker very much brings up a valid point in that regard.

My personal answer to that question is the following: I honestly do not see how less-experienced players within the game can benefit at all from disabling CC, as their playstyles lack the requisite physical control to even make anything out of the added visual feedback.

Because that's literally the point of disabling CC in the first place: increased reading and error detection resolution.
But, in order to make anything notably tangible out of it, you need to reach a certain level of reading and physical control first.


To illustrate my personal case, I have no reason whatsoever to be switching CC off until I reach the point where I can do the following without physically overstraining too much:

1- Fix my trilling control issues and begin to slice through JS consistently, and...
2- Reach a point where I can actually go for 97+ scores on 24+ msd level chordjacking stuff consistently.


If you are targeting cutting-edge AAs on dense chordjacking files regardless of how good you are, you are actually better off enabling CC.
If you are learning how to play jumpstream or handstream without splitting chords left and right all the time, you are definitely better off enabling CC.


My viewpoint is quite honestly not one that appears to be held, let alone publicized very often, as the SMOC community is pretty much doing their own thing, and Mina himself doesn't hold a very high opinion of chordjacking in the first place.

But, I feel that my perspective on the matter does hold capability in regards to assessing things in a manner that can be clear enough to both newcomers and seasoned players alike. That being said, if there are any fundamental flaws in my reasoning, then by all means go ahead and point them out for me.


I am generally reluctant to voice my opinion on such things due to the off-chance of it being unheard or making zero difference whatsoever, but in this case I'm willing to go for it as I have been meaning to do so eventually anyway.


To address the OP however, I do feel that scaled points are very much the preferable choice under the context of CC being disabled - that is primarily because of unscaled scores being far too different from CC-on scores, not to mention that being able to draw comparisons between CC-on and scaled CC-off scores far outweighs the benefits of resorting to unscaled CC-off... that is, if such benefits even exist at all to begin with.

Last edited by DeadSignal; 05-12-2017 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:27 PM   #9
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
stepmania has the exact opposite problem right now: individual players have extremely different playstyles and priorities and are quick to form bubbles of files that only they care about, making the community extremely fractured
the community doesn't seem to think this is a problem even though this means new players come into the game unsure of what to do, get 50 completely different answers from 50 different people who have been around for the same amount of time, then get confused and leave because of course they can't tell who actually speaks for the community as a whole
chord cohesion requires an actual discussion of whether or not we want to remove it because if we treat it the same way we've treated every other issue in the game (i.e just let individual players do whatever they want), you're going to have people playing the same exact file and getting different notecounts in their results, making them completely incomparable
this is far worse than j4 vs j5 because at least with that misses mean more or less the same thing in both systems and you can sort of figure out what different MA/PA ratios in one system are equivalent to in another
Thinking that scores absoloutely 100% need to be comparable between everyone is an assumption that I hate and would like to completely reject; that seems like one of the foundational reasons you all like to go in one complete way or the other.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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yeah i agree there shouldn't even be a community


Yeah I agree that that's the sole thing that defines a community
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

chord cohesion is bad like this thread
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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Originally Posted by MSB Khelly View Post
Why does the sm community always have an all or nothing attitude to everything
you are entirely free to feel this way

nor is anyone attempting to claim otherwise


however, the game meta's positive evolution over the years (even more noticeably so over the past couple of years) has been spearheaded by forward-thinking people that sought viable alternatives to the status quo instead of aimlessly bitching about it under a plethora of different pretexts, regardless of their actual validity

it's too easy to be other people's judge and jury, but ultimately if you have nothing constructive to contribute in a thread dedicated to such matters - you should not say anything in them for everyone's sake including your own


that is all

Last edited by DeadSignal; 05-12-2017 at 05:20 PM.. Reason: initially quoted the wrong thing lozl
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

just take it out, stupid mechanic
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Fuck the mashers

Take it out
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Take it out. The problem with CC is that it is inconsistent with the rest of the system (and the rest of all the vsrgs) in terms of when to reward and when to punish. It allows players to split chords into disastrous degrees and still get marvs, and at the same time also drops fuck all if they hit three notes out of a quad perfectly and miss one note. Lower the judge option if you want sm to be more forgiving towards mashing. Spread a quad into four notes 1pixel away from one another and suddenly you are playing a different game. It makes zero sense. CC is an objectively wrong mechanic. Remember what GENRE we are talking about. It should reward accuracy and consistency. Nothing else matters
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the phenomenon of having the "color gimmick" and how it's basically a way to bypass chord cohesion. For example, place one 4th note, and then three more 4th notes after it and make the BPM something stupid like 1 million and put it back to normal after (this creates a quad with no chord cohesion). Not even mentioning accuracy or consistency, being able to create the same pattern two different ways but having to register it differently is more problematic in my eyes.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

just make it an option
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

the issue isnt whether or not cc should be removed its whether to scale or not scale down the additional points in each chord after removal to retain the same point distribution of files before/after


for the record:
cc is being removed and it will not be optional
dp is being removed and it will not be optional unless you theme it back in, in which case why stop there just go full retard and use sm6 scoring for +9 points for each mine you don't hit

I shouldn't even be spending time arguing why further fracturing the community by giving players a myriad of options for playing, which are at best stupid and at worst objectively wrong (as leonid has pointed out), is stupid and irresponsible

if you don't care about scores being comparable and think "wow more options is objectively better" then just fuck off and play j2l1 sm5default with nofail 6x nojumps added mines super shuffle noholds and haste mod

the important part of that is the "fuck off" part

this entire community and more importantly everything that it has generated, which you are an active recipient of, has only arisen because a group of players came together and agreed upon a consensus for set of defined rules for what constitutes valid score comparison

it is literally the foundational principle of the community-- to make any argument in any direction invoking "who cares just let people do whatever they want" is automatically invalid and you can feel free to go on reddit and co-ruminate with the other people there on how cmods are cheating and the like

if any of you ever want to see a functional leaderboard and scores/stats tracking site then you all have to adhere to a single standard of scoring anyway

Last edited by MinaciousGrace; 05-12-2017 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Don't scale anything; treat quad as if you hit four notes. As mentioned before, you can simulate a "quad" by putting four notes really close together. IMO the actual quad and the simulated quad should count the same way
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

and let me be clear the reason dp and cc aren't optional isn't because I'm vehemently opposed to the concepts in principle (which I am, but that isn't the reason)

the reason is because I'm not writing separate calculators and/or replay systems and/or scoring systems and then making those systems interact functionally with each other just so some of you can feel like special snowflakes

this isnt osumania where "chord cohesion" is going to be some fucking retarded score multiplier mod hahahahaha!!!! great system real sense logic!!!

i'm not making more work for myself when i'm already thanklessly doing everything in the first place just because some of you cry about change when, and this is important, none of you would fucking notice or care after a month of play anyway (unless you just blindmash handstream in which case idk either stop blindmashing handstream or quit not my problem)

so lets keep it on topic and idk at least try to formulate some sort of argument beyond "but that's what i want"
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