Old 09-30-2016, 07:45 PM   #81
MinaciousGrace
FFR Player
D7 Elite Keysmasher
 
MinaciousGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nima
Posts: 4,281
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

and with regards to the charting community maybe you're right and I'm wrong about activity, shit I don't remember specifics honestly I'm just going off my intuition there

but if people in osumania are specifically avoiding charting the same way as stepmania charters then that is by definition having an influence

but i think the real problem, which has been referenced or skirted around multiple times now, is that there are basically just a bunch of people with different ideas of what should or shouldn't be done to go forward and different concepts of what "stepmania being great" is and zero centralized authority to guide anyone or anything

Last edited by MinaciousGrace; 09-30-2016 at 07:47 PM..
MinaciousGrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 07:50 PM   #82
TC_Halogen
Rhythm game specialist.
Simfile JudgeFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Music ProducerD8 Godly KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
TC_Halogen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Age: 29
Posts: 18,848
Send a message via AIM to TC_Halogen Send a message via Skype™ to TC_Halogen
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

the problem then comes down to the fact that setting a person or group of people as "experts" with regards to charting brings the nasty word around: "elitism"

Catch-22. I'd say so.
TC_Halogen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 07:54 PM   #83
MinaciousGrace
FFR Player
D7 Elite Keysmasher
 
MinaciousGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nima
Posts: 4,281
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

you know i really don't get the stigma around that word, not necessarily just within the context of stepmania or even inside of the general concept of the term within gaming society

i just don't get what's wrong with leaving decisions up to people who know what they're talking about

where does the negative connotation come from

Last edited by MinaciousGrace; 09-30-2016 at 07:55 PM..
MinaciousGrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 07:55 PM   #84
MinaciousGrace
FFR Player
D7 Elite Keysmasher
 
MinaciousGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nima
Posts: 4,281
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

ok well I take it back I know where the negative connotation comes from, shitbads get butthurt when they're told they're clueless which is understandable

but i mean conceptually there's nothing wrong with elitism as long as it's functional and employed properly and the "elites" are actually people who know what they're talking about

anyway im getting off on a pretty hefty tangent there i think this thread drives home pretty much all the reasons why nothing really happens

when you think about it stepmania is in many ways in the same boat as ffr only with less incentive to do anything and fewer people with the capacity to do so

Last edited by MinaciousGrace; 09-30-2016 at 07:58 PM..
MinaciousGrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 08:04 PM   #85
DeadSignal
FFR Player
 
DeadSignal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 136
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

There were quite a few things I was going to say here, but Mina already covered most of them in a way that echoes my stance on this very well. However, I can't help but feel a lack of perspective in regards to the targeted demographic, as well as the (mis)perceived direction towards which the game should evolve as a consequence of that... so let's attempt to clear that out shall we?


Before asking yourself, "How can we make this game more appealing to newcomers?", I very firmly believe that it is definitely worth asking "What do newcomers specifically expect from this game in the first place?" before undertaking any sort of hilariously overzealous endeavor through blindly assuming that every single newcomer to the game automatically and invariably wants to become the next 30+ KPS button-mashing twitch superstar.

Which leads me to the main thing I want people to realize: perhaps people simply don't fucking know exactly in which direction they want to take their gameplay experience for now, and just want time to discover things on their own before making a decision of sorts?


In a multifaceted game such as this one, your experience is literally what you make of it - so given that fact it should only make sense to allow new players to develop and cultivate a sense of self-discovery as they progressively decide for themselves which aspects of the game they are drawn to as players. And then provided that they stick around for long enough they'll eventually come to a realization.

Maybe they just want to play anime OPs all day.
Maybe they just want to play Undertale xmod charts all day.
Maybe they are actually angling for speed, but refuse to play anything other than index/pad patterns.
Maybe they crave self-improvement and strive to aggressively push the game to its absolute physical limits as far as optimal pattern execution goes.
Maybe they want to experience moderately-challenging yet flavorful charts, and want to become just good enough to appreciate the nuances in their patterning.


To my personal understanding and experiences, the content-based elements quintessential to Stepmania are the following - this is obviously coupled with the undeniable fact that the game itself allows you to fine-tune your playfield to a far greater extent than just about every rhythm game out there that I personally know of (scroll speeds, noteskin size, receptor positioning/spacing etc).

- Older keyboard packs/charts (FFRCP, Red Fraction etc)
On top of having generally-engaging music, patterning tends to fit well and can even get challenging at times due to fun trilly/anchory stuff among other things.
The level of nuance expressed in such patterning is simply not something I can find in any other rhythm game at all. FFR Community Packs, Piano Minipack of Elegance, Red Fraction Pack, and Untitled Stepmania Pack are excellent examples of this.

- High-level spread gameplay
Essentially an extension of the former, but with more content such as dump charts being more prevalent here.
Again, the kind of patterning present in certain instances of the latter just cannot be experienced to anywhere near the same extent in other rhythm games.

- Xmod courses/gimmicks
Straightforward, not much else to say here.
- Index/pad content
Straightforward, not much else to say here.


So now that we have established what makes Stepmania unique, it is worth bringing up that overall I do feel that it is ultimately pointless to aspire to cover aspects outside of the quintessential zone for the most part. If people just want a music game to play on their keyboards and a bunch of social features to play with friends, they're almost bound to favor osumania over anything else. There is simply little to no point in trying to cater to that demographic when osumania fulfills that purpose better, and the developer team absolutely lacks the initiative to implement something of the sort to this game.

Furthermore it goes without saying that the community has been suffering from a general lack of direction in regards to how a progressive yet realistically feasible future for this game would go (not saying that absolutely no effort has been made, just stating that it has sadly not amounted to much really). And it's not like someone here is going to magically come up with a solution out of thin air either, let alone one viable enough that would convince enough people to contribute to it as to grant it the momentum required for it to actually work. I'm aware that I'm certainly not helping here aside from restating facts, therefore you are more than welcome to prove me wrong.

Therefore ultimately, as mentioned previously - the solution lies in making sure that the Stepmania experience is a rewarding enough one for the players that are already committed to it, in addition to any disgruntled players from other rhythm games that are willing to transition towards a better world.


Of course, I do realize there are probably quality-of-life improvements that can be made to the game itself in order to make things more convenient for players almost regardless of the stepmanian walk of life they choose to follow. However when taking that factor into consideration there are only two major improvements to be made as far as I can tell. Maybe someone out there is better than me at figuring those out without resulting in compromising the self-discovery factor, I dunno.

- Cmods on by default, set at a reasonable initial value of 400-500 or so.
- Making important resources such as this thread even more visible and easier to access (also e.g. things like telling new 4k players that noteskins go in the dance subfolder).
- There is also a guide aimed at new players that is currently in the works, hopefully that works out well.

People that desire very optimized self-improvement driven gameplay will eventually end up looking up xwidghet's build + Mina's theme anyway. They're already out there, and if people really angle for that level of optimized gameplay they'll almost surely have the determination to find those in the first place.



TL;DR: The main benefit of playing a multifaceted game such as this one is that your gameplay experience is literally what you make of it.
If you're going to carry out any sort of effort into improving this game, make sure that it will actually benefit people almost regardless of the aspects of the game that they are drawn to.
Also, pretty much everything Mina said.
DeadSignal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 08:12 PM   #86
TC_Halogen
Rhythm game specialist.
Simfile JudgeFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Music ProducerD8 Godly KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
TC_Halogen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Age: 29
Posts: 18,848
Send a message via AIM to TC_Halogen Send a message via Skype™ to TC_Halogen
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

just worth noting (and i'm not ignoring your post DeadSignal as much as I currently lack the capacity to respond because i'm exhausted from earlier today):

the gameplay experience -and- community experience are what we all make of it. the game is also very much open source and can be modified to our heart's content, granted that we require people who know how to make the game even more of what they want
TC_Halogen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 08:22 PM   #87
DeadSignal
FFR Player
 
DeadSignal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 136
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadSignal View Post
- There is also a guide aimed at new players that is currently in the works, hopefully that works out well.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...6Mx1BNmdA/edit

there it is, still very much a work in progress so there's more to come

Last edited by DeadSignal; 09-30-2016 at 08:23 PM..
DeadSignal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 08:28 PM   #88
Nano Desu
FFR Player
 
Nano Desu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA
Age: 24
Posts: 100
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

shout out to halogen for joining the server for working on that doc then leaving when he sees me and toby :^)
__________________
Pixl's minipack 2 is cancelled
Nano Desu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 08:37 PM   #89
Toby1018
FFR Player
 
Toby1018's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Age: 26
Posts: 62
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

cool doc dude
__________________
fucker

Last edited by Toby1018; 09-30-2016 at 08:38 PM..
Toby1018 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 09:25 PM   #90
Dynam0
The Dominator
D7 Elite KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
Dynam0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Bay, ON
Age: 31
Posts: 8,875
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

itt brainstorming ways to grow a community centered around something as niche as pen-spinning
Dynam0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 10:01 PM   #91
Celirra
FFR Player
 
Celirra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: London, Ontario
Age: 23
Posts: 745
Send a message via Skype™ to Celirra
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Read through everything you said, agree with a lot of what you said Mina. One thing specifically caught my eye, I've been thinking of the same:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace View Post
I have frequently talked about the concept of specifically creating a pack that mimics ffr's 1-10 difficulty level designed to handhold new players through the introductory elements of the game and I've wanted to see this done for years now but while everyone agrees that it's a good idea nobody has once stepped up and said to me hey why don't we get rolling on this.
So like, what if there were to be a pack where, think of Stepping Stones, but like.. Well, covers a more wide range that allows progression. Looking at FFR, there's good starting files there, and looking at games such as DDR, Osu!, etc. They all have songs with multiple difficulties. So what if, say, there was a stepmania pack with about.. Maybe 15-20 songs or so, but with multiple difficulties (like what a completed game would have). Say a beginner ranging from 1-12 on FFR, Easy from 10-22, Normal from 20-35, Hard from 35-50, and expert being like 50-65. Now I know it requires a different kind of thought compared to something akin to VGMP or Yolomania or whathaveyou, but I think something like this, with properly rated difficulties etc, that looks like a full and complete pack, would be really neat and great.

If there's actually interest in a community pack like this, I'd be totally down to oversee it and such, maybe throw in some things here and there if others would be down as well. Let me know if anyone would be willing to do something like that.
__________________
,,
 ,_, -ー'"{
 ゛ヌ ノノノノハヾ
 ノ li.゚ ヮ゚ノi
彡と} 猫.{つ
Celirra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 10:32 PM   #92
MinaciousGrace
FFR Player
D7 Elite Keysmasher
 
MinaciousGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nima
Posts: 4,281
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

my idea was something more handholdy tbh, probably capping around ffr's 20s

and it would afford a tacit introduction to the various skillsets and file types present within the game insofar as that's achievable in a beginner pack

and yes a proper rating system is paramount and it would have to be customized to account for how difficult the introduction of different types of patterns are to players

And yes again it requires a different mindset and concept of approach from traditional packs. Very much an absolute beginner tier pack, and it's ok if half the files in the pack are just salvaged from random pad packs and shit. The important thing is that it's distributed with the game itself and instantly accessible by any prospective players. So basically like the stepmania 5 default songs pack if there weren't 2 files and shit.

@dyanmo dude you dont even know pen spinning is a big fucking deal

e: like realistically the amount of effort wouldn't be insignificant but of all the things that can or should be done this is the easiest and it would go a long fucking way

Last edited by MinaciousGrace; 09-30-2016 at 10:38 PM..
MinaciousGrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 10:38 PM   #93
TC_Halogen
Rhythm game specialist.
Simfile JudgeFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Music ProducerD8 Godly KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
TC_Halogen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Age: 29
Posts: 18,848
Send a message via AIM to TC_Halogen Send a message via Skype™ to TC_Halogen
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano Desu View Post
shout out to halogen for joining the server for working on that doc then leaving when he sees me and toby :^)
thanks for the shoutouts

it was mostly because of toby

that and i honestly don't feel like this is a well-enough conceived effort worth being a part of, as honest as i can be

unless you're finding an almost intrusive way to hold people's hands and get them into doing things, it's likely not effective (an offsite doc isn't gonna do it imo)
TC_Halogen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 10:50 PM   #94
Celirra
FFR Player
 
Celirra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: London, Ontario
Age: 23
Posts: 745
Send a message via Skype™ to Celirra
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by TC_Halogen View Post
that and i honestly don't feel like this is a well-enough conceived effort worth being a part of, as honest as i can be

unless you're finding an almost intrusive way to hold people's hands and get them into doing things, it's likely not effective (an offsite doc isn't gonna do it imo)
Okay so here's where it's at right now:
- making google doc with some good stuff
- making a default SM .zip with a theme and a couple noteskins included (likely SCWH for the theme, and dividebyzero and wafles for noteskins), as well as more starter songs
- currently in the works of writing up a thread over to >>simulator files for a pack that fulfills the criteria I mentioned in an earlier post

Honestly, I don't know if this will work, but at least this way I can say I tried. I was actually going to message you asking for your input, because you seem like you'd know what would be good and what wouldn't be in this matter.
Though if anyone else wants to help too, that'd be super.
__________________
,,
 ,_, -ー'"{
 ゛ヌ ノノノノハヾ
 ノ li.゚ ヮ゚ノi
彡と} 猫.{つ
Celirra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-1-2016, 11:14 AM   #95
devonin
Very Grave Indeed
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
devonin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 36
Posts: 10,098
Send a message via AIM to devonin Send a message via MSN to devonin
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
For example, an RPG where battling is done via DDR -- short little songs for enemies (which also allows for repetition / practice of simple step patterns) or for groups of enemies, longer songs for harder enemies, really long songs for bosses, harder bosses that start slamming you with modifiers, courses, etc.
See also: Before the echo
devonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-1-2016, 02:08 PM   #96
Kraezymann
Forum User
FFR Simfile Author
 
Kraezymann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Age: 32
Posts: 1,636
Send a message via MSN to Kraezymann
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

I can help, if you want. It's nice to see people interested in helping out newcomers/beginners again
__________________
Twitch | Stepping Stones 2! | Stepping Stones 3! | Stepping Stones 4!

Submit to this -

Last edited by Kraezymann; 10-1-2016 at 02:09 PM..
Kraezymann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-1-2016, 02:39 PM   #97
Mahou
魔法少女
FFR Veteran
 
Mahou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 30
Posts: 2,044
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinglesberry View Post
Hypeee incoming I hope I get roasted ;D. Mention me senpai
No offense, but do you really like attention or something? Take that comment with a grain of salt please.

I think the Stepmania community has been doing a great job and doesn't really need improvements in catching the attention of new players. They will come regardles how much you advertise. Hell, I think the size of the community has exceeded my expectations considering the year we are in. In 2015, I was almost convinced only about 20 players were playing. It's very nice seeing all these new faces in the discord and on the website.


Maybe I'm just stupid but I'm not sure what the overall goal is here...to prove this game is superior to others or to just get more players? Players will come over time - they always come and go. And regardless if you have more players, the game won't change lol. To whom this game matters to, make what you can from it. After all, that's the only reason I can see why people have stuck around - the company of other existing members and the fun/challenge you get from the game.
Mahou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-1-2016, 03:43 PM   #98
Celirra
FFR Player
 
Celirra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: London, Ontario
Age: 23
Posts: 745
Send a message via Skype™ to Celirra
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou View Post
I think the Stepmania community has been doing a great job and doesn't really need improvements in catching the attention of new players. They will come regardles how much you advertise. Hell, I think the size of the community has exceeded my expectations considering the year we are in. In 2015, I was almost convinced only about 20 players were playing. It's very nice seeing all these new faces in the discord and on the website.


Maybe I'm just stupid but I'm not sure what the overall goal is here...to prove this game is superior to others or to just get more players? Players will come over time - they always come and go. And regardless if you have more players, the game won't change lol. To whom this game matters to, make what you can from it. After all, that's the only reason I can see why people have stuck around - the company of other existing members and the fun/challenge you get from the game.
To put it bluntly, I much prefer when a game has a healthy balance of skill levels throughout the community and a sizable audience, because a) it helps the game stay fresh and with meeting new people to play with, and b) doing so will allow us (or maybe just me) to actually introduce people to the game and make them stay, rather than "oh yeah thats cool, but no thanks I'll stick to Osu".

The goal here isn't to prove the game is superior; rather, its to help make it better than it is currently in various ways. Sure the game isn't bad right now, I'd argue it's pretty good, but there's still things that can be done to it on various fronts. And if things can be improved, why not improve them? Stagnation is deterioration.
__________________
,,
 ,_, -ー'"{
 ゛ヌ ノノノノハヾ
 ノ li.゚ ヮ゚ノi
彡と} 猫.{つ
Celirra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-1-2016, 04:42 PM   #99
Mahou
魔法少女
FFR Veteran
 
Mahou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 30
Posts: 2,044
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celirra View Post
To put it bluntly, I much prefer when a game has a healthy balance of skill levels throughout the community and a sizable audience, because a) it helps the game stay fresh and with meeting new people to play with, and b) doing so will allow us (or maybe just me) to actually introduce people to the game and make them stay, rather than "oh yeah thats cool, but no thanks I'll stick to Osu".
I guess I just don't see it because there is only so much you can do. If the person isn't already getting into the game the first few days, then you can pretty much bet that they probably won't play it regularly or try to be on a higher tier of play. You can take the horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celirra View Post
The goal here isn't to prove the game is superior; rather, its to help make it better than it is currently in various ways. Sure the game isn't bad right now, I'd argue it's pretty good, but there's still things that can be done to it on various fronts. And if things can be improved, why not improve them? Stagnation is deterioration.
I know you didn't literally say that you weren't trying to prove anything, but it kind does in some sense. If someone is already an Osu player, you kind of have to prove why this game is better - that way, you have successfully got someone else into the community; however, if someone has never touched a rhythm game in their life, then you have to hope the person has a good enough experience to stick around.

Last edited by Mahou; 10-1-2016 at 04:43 PM..
Mahou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-1-2016, 04:43 PM   #100
Soul Evans
FFR Player
 
Soul Evans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Age: 21
Posts: 257
Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Stepmania was a hell to setup at first if i didn't go around and asking top SM players from osumania pm's, while i left stepmania for a while because of how i got frustrated at not knowing the difficulties, i went back to osumania and played animu songs that has a (bad but works) difficulty system, i would have probably stayed at stepmania if i knew what packs are the type of difficulty i'm catered towards to, i would probably

stayed there before i returned to the game a year later, but if i haven't played osumania and didn't get tempted to play the game again and had tons of peoples help setting it up again, and i was a completely new player, i would have probably not come back to stepmania
This wouldn't be the case for many other players but i'm basing this off of my experience with finding this game.

Please don't derail this thread by calling me bs, i'm just really lazy making a third video after i fucked up three of them.
Soul Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution