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#1 |
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FFR Player
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Before I start, know that I'm not being racist or classist in anyway. I'm stating my opinion and thought, look for feedback as to the general opinion on the text below.
So, I was sitting on my back porch talking with my buddy about things in general, and somehow Spanish language came up. Living in a Farsi / Spanish rich community that the average income is 120,000 a year (unless you are ME or Hispanic and then is around 20,000). Over the last 5 years, the number of Spanish speaking people have almost quadrupled in number. The school system has converted two of the 5 schools to a Spanish mandatory school, meaning that if you attend, you WILL speak Spanish. These are public school and it makes no sense to me. Maybe its just me. I would understand the conversion schools MUCH more is Spanish were actually a prominent business language, but some how I don't see Steve Jobs holding a business meeting in Mexico, or even Spain (though the Spanish is two different dialects). Its just not very practical on an educational level. Japanese, German, French - if you make a language learned mandatory, then at least make it useful. Rather than set up after school programs to teach dominant Spanish speakers English, they enforce Spanish during school hours. It's like taking God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. It was written that way, if you don't like it, don't say it, but don't change a fundamental aspect of the country's founding simply because the minority is "uncomfortable" My buddy then responded with: "A nation should simply reflect its culture, and in today's America, lots of Spanish and Arab immigrants are living among us. America is notorious for assimilating the people who come into her borders to be like everyone else. I mean, in the end you guys asked for it anyway. The Statue of Liberty says "give me your tired, your Hungary, your poor...' ". He was sort of disagreeing with me, but I have to agree; a nation should reflect its culture. We're Americans, not Sudan, Pakistan, India, Mexico, Cuba, Russia, Italy, Japan, or Canada; we're America. We DO assimilate the immigrants to fit in to be Americans. Its not like we're French and still have colonies out there. I feel the statement of "When in Rome do as the Romans do". the nice thing about this country is that the door swings both ways. Yet, people come here and get their free money, their tax exemption, a job, and that's not enough. If their country was so bad, why'd they leave? I understand it wasn't always a matter of not liking their country, but everything has a price. If you come to America to live here, you should , not be draft exempt, pay the same taxes, speak English like a majority of us, and in general be an American. I'm not saying that they need to give up their cultural heritage; that's dead wrong. Who are we to say that you cant do certain things that define you background, but in general - they've come here to get certain privileges, and that's fine. To come here and say that "We're not going to do this, or we shouldn't have to acknowledge that"...how is it right for me to respect all aspects of their culture and way of life, when it appears all they've done is force the majority of Americans to coddle their "needs" so that they are comfortable. I'm not comfortable here anymore. So many rules and regulations have been set in place so that you really can't even frown in someones direction without it being considered anti-cultural. Ive said in another post that the world ain't pretty, and it isn't. If the foreigners want to come to America - that's fine, I have no issue, but they'd better be prepared to do everything we are expected to do for this country. I'm tired of being in a majority of citizens, yet being forced to coddle to the whims of the minority.... |
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#2 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: numbOMGemo
Posts: 75
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Personally I don't like the idea that America turns everybody who comes in American - it just doesn't mesh with me. A country needs diversity, and America tries to hide theirs. Sure, they have diversity, but they want everybody to be American and hide the fact that they are different. Even though I disagree - and I think it would be nice to have some other-languaged schools around here - that isn't the way America works, is it? Even if I don't like it, it isn't right for them to be coddled by America, when they are supposed to be AMERICAN now that they moved there.
I like the way Canada is. We take in people from all over and we don't want them to change their ways, change their religion, change their name, change everything about them. We want people to retain their culture, and thus give Canada diversity. But would the same system work in America? I don't know, but it certainly doesn't work "selectively" - where a few people, like the ones you described, are given these privileges in one area and others aren't given it at all. Should they, morally, get to be individuals? Yes. But by America's rules, they should just be American. Not spanish, not different, not weird. America works when everybody has the same common ground, and if one doesn't have it, thery must adopt it to avoid falling behind or slipping through the cracks. It's a whole lot EASIER that way. I can see why they do it. And for a few people to think they can move into the country and not follow the same rules as other immigrants is wrong.
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Remember when the platform was sliding into the fire pit and I said 'goodbye' and you were like 'NO WAY!' and then I was all, "we pretended we were going to murder you"? That was great. |
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#3 |
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NO DOUBT GET LOUD
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: California
Age: 30
Posts: 5,631
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I'm having a bigger problem with the people coming in from Mexico to California, illegaly.
California seems to want to welcome illegal aliens into the state, yet the people of the state disagree. The people who do cross the border and make it into California are welcomed with a legal liscense they can get. Yes, San Diego can now give illegal MEXICANS liscenses, no one else that is illegal can get one. Everything now in the cities here have some sort of spanish related text, to help them out on their days here. Now don't get me wrong, some spanish people are great, but the majority of the people in South California don't give a damn. Lets take LA for instance. Not a suburb of LA, LA itself. The place is a shithole. Why? Because its filled with lofts after lofts of Mexican people, who disrespect their city they live in. LA is dumped with trash and garbage all over. No respect. I'm seeing too much help for the Mexican people. If they are in this state, they should be learning to speak English, not move to a city where there is spanish signs and crappy neighborhoods. Yeah thats nowhere anything related to the topic, but whatever. |
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#4 | |
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Resident Penguin
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Frankly I disagree quite a bit with your arguments about the minority conforming to the majority. That kind of philosophy doesn't sit well with me at all. Forcing people to adapt to the habits of the already existing society if tantamount to totalitarianism. The fact of the matter is that the influx of spanish immigrants will both change and be changed by the existing american society. |
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#5 |
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FFR Player
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I see where you both come from on this issue, hoever we are not Canada, now is all of America just like LA. There are good and evil aspects to every ethnicity, this I've witnessed first hand. THats not the point. My point was that afer leaving hte English colonies to become out own entity and took the land under "divine manifestation", we';ve fought to keep America what it is at its root. To change that tomake someone else, above all a foreigner comfortable is not a good idea (which is Radiahs said in closure).
Within seconds of the post a erpson of the Latino communitiy approached me and explained that he felt that the Spanish language was extremely important. That middle market jobs, in order to cater to its clients and employees Spanish was a need. However, this is not completely accurate. Im a store manager and I dont know Spanish, I have a Spanish dominant staff and clientel base. I do just fine with out knowing Spanish and they, when they want to communicate with me speak English. I get paidthe same as the other white manager who took 4 years of Spanish in HS and whos job it was in the ARMY to speak Spanish. I believe that its a regional thing. No where have I ever worked would I get a pay raise from knowing more athan English. I've had jobs ranging from high businees to janitor, no where did. I absolutely have to have it, thus it is NOT a busniess language, at least high busniess where world market is involved. At no ipoint did I say that America needss to force a high level of conformity upon its citizens. I understand that America defines and can actually separate words like Freedom, Democray and Rights from words like McDonalds, Capitolism, and Gluttony. Its not so easy for other nations to do with us if all they see on TV are US soldiers tromping our "enemies" under foot, watch our TV stations where every 15 minutes, there are 5 minutes of commercials advertizing the dumbest shit. I digress... As a whole, it is not right for a foreign citizen to assume that becuase we are the "Land of Freedom" that they can come and change rules and standards that the natives have set up and fought to attain. I agree with Snapps in that in many areas there is WAY too much help for the Mexican people. In reading, it would appear that they want to keep minority rights, yet arent minorty. Keeping that kind of control and leverage, makes them milk the system in way s that screw it up for not only themselves in the long run, but other minorities. I understand they may need help to get proper footing in the society, but there is a time and place to draw the line on it. Im a low income family with my wife and son. I dont'qualify for many government programs due to a racial quota. The government feesl the need to make the appearance that they are not racist. This would be better solved if say they judged you based on citizenship. If you are a legal or natural American resident - you fall uneder catagory A and qualify for certain programs, but also must work to get off of them. If you are illegal...Id like to show you the lovely INS van, watch your head as you get in, and be sure to keep all hands and feet inside the van while in motion. Fact remains, that as a natural AMerican, I have every right to feel this way and voice that opinion, as does anyone who has a contrasting opinion. I've put my time in the system, been here done that, work my ass off to hope for the national averaga income. If I can do it with less help than a foreigner, then they should be able to as well. A start would be maybe learning english and using it in a public and professional setting so that you appear more desireable to the American workforce, thereby asking for a higher wage and not looking like a stereotyped "Stupid Mexican" (Im not say all mexicans are stupid, I know they arent, but its a stereotype, much like me being of german descent gets me a lot fo Nazi references) As for the diversity of America, we don't need to be diverse in culture. Look at Japan, Germany, Italy, Greece, Russia...not exactly diverse countries. they have culture, but lack the claimed diversity that was stated. We;'re America, not MExico, Cuba, Japan, India...if you want those cultures, board an airplane. There is nothing to state you may not leave this country. Ironically those who bitch about how we need to adapt to their culture, are less willing to return to their native lands. They don't have to, buthtey do have to conform to what the American society has worked to create or leave. There are cut and dry options. If at any point I was not hapy with the way this country was run or the way that I feel it should be, in short it turning to shit- I'll leave. The pint - foreigners are here by choice, they had an option and chose to leave their respective homes in search of a better life. America is no longer a "free to claim" area. If they com ehere, they should be expected to adhere to the rules and standards set forth rtather than change them to serve their purpose and make it easier on only them. Taking residence in any other country would be the same. England doesn't change its rules for its citizens... |
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#6 |
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FFR Player
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Yeah, Snapps is right. I've been going to school with these kinds of people my whole life. They have always been in some sort of ESL class and their English isn't that great. But you know, it starts at home. How is the kid going to know English if their parents don't? I'm sure their parents would like to become better at English, but they're too busy working graveyard shifts at Jack in the Box.
But let's get this straight. The issue here isn't about Mexicans. It's about people coming to America and not being able to speak English. Let me offer my opinions on the subject. English is the hardest language in the world. I think I can safely say that. That said, I have no idea why it is the world's most desired language. How many people do you know that can use English well? Of course you know many people who are able to Speak English, but I'm talking about using correct grammar, spelling, punctuation etc. My guess is not a lot. But then again, who ever uses correct English, anyways? Not many people. Probably because it's a fair amount easier to just say whatever comes out. If you think about it, the things you say often don't make sense grammatically, or even just don't make sense at all. I know I speak like that. It's common. As far as I know, there is no other language in the world that does this. All of these people learn textbook English, and then when they come to America, what good does it do them? None, because that's not how we speak. You can't learn that stuff in books. You can only learn it if you are a native speaker of English (even native speakers have problems), or are just some sort of linguistic genius. Have you ever studied another language? I'm sure you probably took a couple years of Spanish just to get the credits required. Have you ever studied another language in hopes of achieving fluency in that language? For most Americans, the answer is "No". Until you do, you can't understand how hard it is for somebody to start from zero, and work their way up to fluency. In fact, it's well near impossible. Not just for English, but all languages. The structure of languages also has a lot to do with it. I'll give you an example. I have been studying Japanese for a while, and can speak it rather well. But you know, I don't think I'll ever be fluent. I'll never be able to speak like a real Japanese. That is, unless I live there for maybe 10 years or so. Anyways, to the example. Japanese verbs are really simple. I'll break it down. taberu - to eat suru - to do aruku - to walk Do you notice any similarities in the verbs yet? Let's conjugate some. Present: taberu Past: tabeta Want to~: tabetai Can/Able to~: tabereru Let's~: tabeyou Passive: taberareru Make/Let~: tabesaseru Be mad to~: tabesaserareru That's it. It's simple. You just plugs things into patterns and you get what you need. It is literally as simple as 1+2=3. Although there are some conjugations I left out because they aren't really necessary, that is the general idea. Now, let's look at the verb in English, "to eat", as compared to Japanese. Oh, it looks like English doesn't have verb conjugations similar to how Japanese does. They have to learn a different word for each tense or use. Doesn't that sound lovely? eat ate eaten Although there are only three for this particular case, they add up rather fast when learning new words. Japanese just have to learn a simple pattern, while we have to learn irregular usages and several different forms for each one. For a little extra bonus knowledge, Japanese has no articles such as "the", or "a". Take a step back and look at your language. Compare it to other languages if possible. If you do this, then you can begin to realize why there are so many problems with learning English. Unfortunately, there are many cases where the child, from birth, lives in the United States, but does not develop his skills in English as well as he should. As I stated before, it starts in the home. If the parents can't speak English, then what is he going to learn from birth? What his parents speak. Whether it be Spanish, French, Chinese, German, Arabic, or any other language, after that base is set, and after a certain while, that base can't be broken or changed. It will affect the way you think for the rest of your life. Although I may not have been clear on some points, I hope you can understand what I am trying to get at. Being actively involved in language studies myself, I realize what many of the problems are. English is an extremely difficult language, and trying to learn it and become fluent in it from nothing is perhaps one of the most difficult tasks one may face in life. A note on Senate's post: Spanish is in fact a business language. It's just that "store manager" doesn't apply to the business category. That's not big enough. Also, being one of, if not the most culturally diverse country in the world, we should be able to experience culture from all around the world within our own country. Unfortunately, we cannot. That is due to the "melting pot" idea that we as American citizens tend to have.
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GB CHALLENGE IS HOMOSEXUAL ARE YOU HOMOSEXUAL? I THINK SO
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#7 |
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FFR Player
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No, I understand that at TIMES I can have horrible grammer, but I write how i think. It is because it's easier, but if I sit down and actually write something out profssionally, Im pretty hard to beat out (not a challenge, as thats just a lame challenge to begin with and I have no interestin it anyway). Im a busy person, and I often dont go back a reread what I type becuase ina forum becuase forum respect is... of no consequense. Its a forum of people with no real weight, and if it was, there is no real way to meet me in person and know Im who you see me here as. Im sure I'd surprise the hell out of most of you guys.
I know that English is a hard language to learn mainly because it changes all the time and slang is used more than proper terms and grammar. Text book English is often British English, and I have been overseas and I did struggle to learn other languages. I didnt puruse it as, I was there temporarily, but I made an effort to fit in THEIR society. I learned conversational Italian, Hungarian, Russian, and German. It is hard to pick up a dofferent language, but I did it. I dont consider myself of MENSA level intelligence either. - EDIT - Sure, in the 50's the God was added underpressure, but its on the money we use and has been well before the 50's. Are they then going to remove the IN GOD WE TRUST?. Talisman, I dont object to my opinion being totalitarianism, but define Democracy? Rebulic has majority rule, but - Romans voted on the same things daily, so that woulndnt work as we'd be waiting for lifetimes to accomplish a single thing. The fact is, we line in a country where majority rule. If its not something you like, then there is nothing keeping anyone here. I've noticed that a lot of the people here are between the ages of 13-18. I'm not saying that as a group you are unfounded or that your views and opinions are of no worht. Im not saying that at all. After all, I'll rely on your generation to support my ass when I'm old. Just as you rely on my generation and the generation above, to ensure your future. What Im going to say is that, throughout hte CT posts, and the debates and so on, there is excellent presentation of text book theory. Good use of grammar (which...I'm not so good at these days, I was, but it's slipped), some astounding vernacular and vocabulary. All of these things are great, but... Its all text book theory that being taught or personally investigated to surmount your theories. I say theories becuase a good percentage of you have only dealt with "real world" issues on a lower level. It's not hte fault of you, or your inablitly to do anything at all. Most of you seem capable of becoming something with yourselves. All I'm saying is that until you go out, live on your own, buy your own cars, have a family, battle toe work force and understand that were not the industrial age anymore... I dont' think you can fully understand much of the ongoings. The member who confronted me on this issue, stated a lot of good points, but in the end, I feel they were more personal and self-contained arguments becuase he was Latino. I understand that, I'm German / Fillipino. If someone (and they have) said to me that Germans in general were all Nazis, I'd argue the point from a personal standpoint as well. However, a Latino arguing his angle on this post, got me thinking some more: IF this person being a Latino himself, felt that Spanish was important in conjunction with Talismans point of my opinion of the minority confoming to the majority - if say (and only as example - NOT racial at all) that Latinos were in the majority, and non Latinos were in the minority - how willing would YOU be to confrom to MY beliefs as the minority? Due to the human nature of greed, more than likely not at all. You are confortable within the confines created to make your way of life and would fight to preserve it. Having tables turned makes things a lot different. Im sure some of you will take that wrong, and misconstrude what I've said. I was younger once, and sometimes STILL take things out of context. Think about it from both sides for just a moment. You can see that the Latino communities are, for the most part, poverty stricken. Now, think (WITHOUT being racial) about why? Is it because theyare unskilled? No, not at all. Intruth Latinos are no different other than the language barrier. Why is it a big deal to ask them to conform to an existing society. Talismans comment killed itself in that one line. Of COURSE its perfectly acceptable to ask a minority group to conform to an existing majority. Its the basis of American Democracy. In response to KILGA - I refer back to text book theory: Its what should, not what is. Theory and practice are things rarely seen holding hands, reinforcing Q's comment on the "aperson vs senate" post concerning unwashed masses. If you want Japanese culture, go to Japan. Its the real culture and not the Americanized version of. Look at a majority of Anime now; 2/3 of it is horrible in both art and story. The unwahed masses that have not gotten a chance to experience the real thing overseas, eat it up. On top of that, who in Europe would come to America to experience Japanese culture? No one, they go to Japan for that. Being culturally diverse doesnt give way to a reasonable excuse of such a statement. We are a melting pot and it's not looked upon in favor these days becuase of the assimilation of many other cultures. I understnad the want to practice your own cultures and recognize diversity, but when people ask me what I am, my answer is "American". I'm not German / Fillipino American, I'm not Latino American, nor am I African-American. I'm simply American. As I stated and the entire point of my edit, is - If you want "real" go to real, if you want a taste of, then come here. You can recognize diversity with out making sure your culture is on the forefront. No ONE culture hold importance over another. However, destroying the basis of the origin, a face-lift if you will, is wrong. Maybe the balance will be countered back and forth, but by those standards, what if the Asian Community came in and started speaking Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, Vienamese, Thai, or Fillipino (which would be somewhat easier since they are Spanish and Japanese at root... ha, I guess I'm part Spanish then), and began forcing Latinos to speak THOSE languages? Would they get up and learn that? I suspect they would as quickly as they'd learn and commonly use out side of the house - English. PUNK ROCK. Any moneky can play 3 power chords, really they can. I can, and I can't play guitar. However, there is a set standard for how punk is played. Bands that have stood the punk rock test of time have followed and defined a set of rules to create "good" punk rock. Rap is the same way. The lyrical content is rarely of any value and I feel is the leading cause to youth grammar problems, but there are set patterns to making good rap. Rarely has a hybrid style ever worked becuase its not "real". A lot of the new bands with in the past 3 years come in and are popular for a CD or two, then dissapear. The Killers, Good Charlotte, Yellowcard, Nick Cannon, Sisqo, and Nelly - all bands that didnt really conform the majority. What do they do now? Host some Teen Nick $hit, thats what. Note, that I dont like either style of music and find nothing even remotely artistic in them (at least their mainstream - but thats where things lose value anyway). |
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#8 | |
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FFR Player
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(read it VERY carefully there is one direct reference to God, and one reference to Creator in the context of God) Whether you belive in God or not, the reference to it in the Pledge of Allegiance is there now. The Pledge itself was originally written by Francis Bellamy. Oddly, being a Christian himself, "GOD" was not originally there. "UNDER GOD", was an addendum brought about by the Knight's of Columbus in 1954, and given the Christian origins of the country, why remove it? Separation of Church and State maybe? Perhaps, the Pledge of Allegiance will change, but it's another example of majority rule. More than 50% of this nation has chosen to leave it in. Until the minority can sway the majority, so it shall remain. I've never understood why, in such an open Democracy the minory bitches so much over so little. The "Squeeky Wheel" theory has been socially debunked for some time. How then do underage citizen make themselves heard? Voteing is out, and I hear a lot of the minors say "Well, what am I supposed to do? Vote? I'm too young!" Ahhh, but your pen works fine does it not? Figure this - Your Senators and Congress"people" do not sever set temrs and have long enjoyed that perk. You will be of voting age very soon, so your voice carries validity. Either you are lazy, or you are just bandwagoning and don't honestly care, as if you did you'd make a point of being heard aside from bitching to your peers. |
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#9 | |
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FFR Player
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I am living proof of what Varia just said. I was born in Hong Kong and I speak cantonese as a first language. I moved to Canada to start elementary school and even then my english isn't that great. Don't grade my grammar in this post either, because I normally make sure to use the best english that I possibly can when posting. I'm 15 this year and I still have an asian accent, my grammar is LOUSY, and my vocabulary is really really bad. Over 10 years in a Canadian environment and my english still isn't even close to that of my white friends (whoamg racist classification :O!). Now let's look at these 'illegal mexican immigrants'. I'm not completely familiar with how they 'abuse' the fact that they are given certain extra priveleges, but hear me out. This is again about languages and adaptation. If I've only spent 3 years living in my native country, and I have trouble adapting to a newer environment even though I've been living there for over 10 years, how do you think an immigrant would feel? Someone who has spoken spanish for the last 20 years, is forsure going to find it hard to learn a new language. Even studies have shown that it is much easier to learn other languages while at a young age. Adjusting to English is undoubtedly difficult for them. I am not saying that because of this they shouldn't make an effort to learn the language, but learning takes both time and effort. You can't expect a mexican (still in the process of learning english) to stop driving because they can't figure out what the english on a road sign says. With such a high amount of mexicans in the US, extra help and support is needed. In Canada there is a HUGE amount of Francophones and because of this on almost anything you buy, the labels/ingredients/etc.. are written in both english and french. Doing these things is not like babying the Mexicans. I see it more as helping them adapt to a different country. my 2 cents..
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clairmai lol hvam lol |
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#10 |
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FFR Player
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I understand and agree with your point of the learning of a new language taking both time and effort. It would be just as easy to make the Spanish kids learn english at a younger age without forcing hte American kids to learn Spanish. Had you stayed in HongKong, you would have had to learn English anyways, becuase it is a primary business language world wide. In this instance Spanish is not. It may be the second or third most spoken language on the planet, but it, by my understanding halso has the most dialects where the other dialects have trouble understanding one another. If I remember right, asian languages follow a close second in mutual understandability.
With Canada, remember who colonized it. It, if I'm right was a French colony, thats why there is a lot of French speaking peoples there. America is a special specific case. We are not, nor have been a country that WANTED to adapt to foreign culture. We broke away from England to be ourselves, not someone else. That is my ENTIRE point. I'm not the best writer, and my grammar isnt always top notch, but damn it, I'm not hard to understand. My whole point is, we're not YOU, don't make us that way. Its backed with the understanding that foreigners leave a country for one reason or another, come here and set up to live. Thats also fine. If however, the foreigner wanted to come to America for hte tax breaks, and the "opportunity" and so on, but force me to accpet and at times practice aspects of their culture - thats not fine. You can not have you cake and eat it too. Its a bloated case of "I was here first"...plain and simple. Being in the majority, I stand solid, and if the minority do not like it - the door does swing both ways and we dont hurt you if you leave. I get the impression that many of you think that we should just bend over and say "sure why not" simply becuase English is hard. Boo Hoo. Seriously, so its hard, if thats the only point you really have to offer, its pretty weak. Lots of things in life are hard. SATs are hard for some ppl. The Educational standards dropped becuase of the general population (partially due to immigration) were not passing the standard tests. The standard was lowerd and look where we are now?Coddling to the weak has never ever been beneficial, even if in the name of a supposed better life. For whom is this a better life? Me? My son, my wife, any other natural American? or... is it just the immigrants itching about how they came here to find fame and fortune or a btter way of life and its not what they thought, so they need to mold it to THEIR version of a utopian society. I seem to recall that you can not make all of the people happy all of the time, which would technically be utopian. So majority wins...thats why its there. A lot of poeple hate the fact that President was re-elected, so much so that reports of people moving to other countries have been heard. THey didnt like it so... they left. Those who work the graveyard shifts, its not due to lack of education in genereal, but who in their right mind expects to entere a new area nad start in the middle rung of the social ladder? Thats not only pretentious, but plain stupid. Just as when I first started posting on FFR, I was practically flamed for my views and opinions. Not a one of you know anything more than what I've let you know. I have to prove my "worth", and where I'm not worthy, work to be so. Its a common equasion through life. Although its rarely accepted when it is you who are in question. Funny how that works. Yes, I can expect a MExican to not drive in my country becuase he or she can not read the signs, just as if I went to Italy and I couldnt read the road signs, I'd not dirve. Thats a safety thing. For all the learning Mexican knows the sign could say DO NOT ENTER, and he'll keep driving. Im sure a facotr of common sense plays a role here too, I don'tt hink mexicans are stupid at all. Thats not the issue. I also didnt use Mexicnas as the only foreign group that does this. In the East Coast, MANY Middle Easterners are even worse in this area, but I don't feel liek listening to anti-Islamic accusations I could get simply becuase I'm stating fact. (No, I'm not anti-Islamic - I'm anti- terrorist though) |
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