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Old 01-2-2009, 12:52 AM   #21
somethingillremember
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
I see nothing wrong with that.

Plot doesn't drive a game. Gameplay drives a game. If the game is 100% plot and 0% gameplay, then it's going to be a terrible game. I think video game designers do better without worrying about an engrossing plot.

I disagree with you that plot would make FPSes better. I think gameplay is the most important thing. Far Cry, Crysis, etc. They're touted for amazing graphics. Too bad they're terrible games. The gameplay is disgustingly bad.

You've broken down the overarching plot to "kill aliens", but that's not the entire plot. I started playing Gears 2 last night, and even as someone who has never played Gears before, I found the story good enough to want to keep playing. In fact, we didn't finish and I went home and was about to go online to look up how it ends because I might not have another opportunity to play again.

PS - way to generalize everything, thus proving that you haven't played anything.

PPS - Halo isn't bad for its terrible story. It's bad for its generic and unimaginative gameplay.
I wasn't generalizing. I was exaggerating to prove a point

Notice also that I did not say GoW2, which actually looks pretty good.

Also, can people please stop saying things like "way to do this" or other things that, at least to me, seem like forum allowed ways of insulting someone. I don't know if you intended it to be an insult, but to me, it felt like one. For the record, I'm sorry I generalized things, I'm sure all the games I mentioned have better plots than I said they do, and the Manhunt thing was really just a joke.

As for gameplay driving a game, yes, I think that's true, If a game is all plot and no game, it wouldn't be much of a game. But I think that it's also really hard to make single player gameplay that doesn't get repetitive after awhile, especially when players get stuck. If there isn't much plot, and a player gets bored with the game, then they have no reason to continue playing. If there is a good plot to go with the game, then a player who is stuck at a really hard bit will have reason to keep playing. When I got stuck at a boring part in eternal, the plot was what kept me playing the game, instead of switching to another one of the many free Marathon games.

Also, I think that there could be one game that sells well where it focuses on plot. It couldn't happen multiple times, but for one game people would like it. In other words, because so many games these days are focused mainly on online multiplayer, one game with a really good plot and not-so-great multiplayer might sell just because it was different. That's why I liked Eternal - it was a bit of a break. If I were to play another game like it, then I probably wouldn't care so much, but for one game it was pretty fun to have a bit of change from the norm.


On a slightly different topic, how was GoW2? I might want to get it if I get my Xbox fixed.
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Old 01-2-2009, 01:06 AM   #22
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Fallout 3 has the best plot ever for next gen fps. Also MGS4 although it's not an fps it has a decent plot.
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Old 01-2-2009, 02:11 AM   #23
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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Well I'm just going to do what you did to the OP.

That is what YOU think, but others might like it

or whatever you said. I never finish reading the thread and posted this after reading up to this post.
There's a big difference between my opinion and his opinion.

A lot of other people agree with me. Nobody agrees with him.

Now, the funny thing is, I enjoyed it my first time around. But after looking back on it and after playing the sequel, I realized that the franchise is just another example of Square Enix playing to the fanboys, like they do with every franchise they run.

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Also, can people please stop saying things like "way to do this" or other things that, at least to me, seem like forum allowed ways of insulting someone. I don't know if you intended it to be an insult, but to me, it felt like one. For the record, I'm sorry I generalized things, I'm sure all the games I mentioned have better plots than I said they do, and the Manhunt thing was really just a joke.
It's not meant as an insult. Rather, it's meant to point out something in a forceful manner.

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As for gameplay driving a game, yes, I think that's true, If a game is all plot and no game, it wouldn't be much of a game. But I think that it's also really hard to make single player gameplay that doesn't get repetitive after awhile, especially when players get stuck. If there isn't much plot, and a player gets bored with the game, then they have no reason to continue playing. If there is a good plot to go with the game, then a player who is stuck at a really hard bit will have reason to keep playing. When I got stuck at a boring part in eternal, the plot was what kept me playing the game, instead of switching to another one of the many free Marathon games.
I can't think of many games you think lack a plot that follow this ideology. Every review for FPSes that you think lack a plot basically says "the plot's nothing to write home about, but it's enough to keep you playing."

In the end, the point of the plot is to keep you playing. I can't think of many games that fail to do this. In fact, from my perspective, sometimes a deep plot makes me not want to play a game. That's only if it's not in an RPG though.

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On a slightly different topic, how was GoW2? I might want to get it if I get my Xbox fixed.
I never played the original so I can't compare, but it was a good shooter. I'm not a fan of third-person shooters and cover systems and all that, though. I definitely wouldn't pay $60 for it. I only buy games if I can get a dollar an hour or better. Since I don't play multiplayer, I highly doubt I would get 60 hours of gameplay out of Gears. I certainly didn't get it from CoD:WaW, but I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I loved CoD4 and that was short too. It was a great game despite its length.

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Old 01-2-2009, 02:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

I just got finished with Grand Theft Auto IV, and I loved every minute of it because of the plot. I haven't really gotten too sandbox-happy with it yet, but most of the time the mission objectives are:

a) Drive to a location
b) Kill a bunch of guys
c) Chase someone out of the location and kill them too
d) Profit

I still enjoyed it because there were other things going on. I mean, GTA4 certainly isn't an FPS so it may or may not go hand-in-hand with either side of this discussion, but I just felt like mentioning it because I loved the game. Since the debate seems to mostly surround FPSs, I think it's pretty safe to say that what makes most people play them is either the multiplayer or the gameplay, or a combination of both.
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Old 01-2-2009, 03:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

I liked KH2 for the story... It was pretty good. There was a pretty good plot with Rainbow6 Vegas 1 and 2, Gears of war 1 and 2. There are a few good games with plots.
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Old 01-2-2009, 03:07 AM   #26
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Okay, so I guess there are quite a few games with plots (I really doubt many of them have the complexity of the one I'm playing now, but that's because plot is all Eternal has). So maybe we could, like, make a list?

Fallout 3
Gears of War 2
Grand Theft Auto IV
Bioshock (actually, thinking back to this game, if you paid attention to the tapes lying around everywhere, it had a really good and complex plot as well)
Lots of the old Marathon games (I recommend these, they're really fun for being free)

Any others you guys can think of?
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Old 01-2-2009, 03:14 AM   #27
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

To me, I just have this 'smothered' feeling of regurgitated video games all around me. It's frustrating how I don't see a ton of unique games out there, but, it's like what Squeek says. It's mostly about what other people want. They focus mainly on gameplay to satisfy what the majority wants. Sure they'll do something to make it a little different from the one the other company makes, but, I wish they'd take that a step further. To me it just feels like there's no real art to it.

And I won't lie, there are some games out there that have really good plots. Some that have the good plots and gameplay to boot too. And guy with the incredibly large SN that started this thread, you're probably like me and just wish that you could see more.
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Old 01-2-2009, 04:16 AM   #28
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Go Counter-Strike 1.6!
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Old 01-2-2009, 05:55 AM   #29
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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Originally Posted by somethingillremember View Post
Okay, so I guess there are quite a few games with plots (I really doubt many of them have the complexity of the one I'm playing now, but that's because plot is all Eternal has). So maybe we could, like, make a list?

Fallout 3
Gears of War 2
Grand Theft Auto IV
Bioshock (actually, thinking back to this game, if you paid attention to the tapes lying around everywhere, it had a really good and complex plot as well)
Lots of the old Marathon games (I recommend these, they're really fun for being free)

Any others you guys can think of?
I can name a few.

I really don't understand your problem here. As long as the game doesn't begin with you shooting polygons for no reason, I have no idea how you can make the claim that every other FPS lacks a plot. The original DOS shooters basically had you shooting Nazis. There's still a plot. Whether it's good or bad is up to the player, now isn't it?

What I don't understand is how someone who needs to have a deep, engrossing plot in their games has chosen the FPS genre as the place to look for it, when the RPG genre has had a deep, engrossing plot in every entry into the genre since its inception decades ago.

And your post is sounding more and more like an advertisement for Marathon. Funny thing is, I'll still never play it because I've yet to like a game Bungie has made whether it's free or not.

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Old 01-2-2009, 06:48 AM   #30
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

You also seem to be generalizing into all games. I thought the discussion was only about FPSs having "amazing" plots to them and yet you're mentioning several sand box and action games. There are plenty of games out there with amazing plots, but you aren't likely to find them in the FPS genre.

If you generalize everything, of course you will see repeats in the story. A lot of shooters have a "kill aliens" setting, but when you look at the finer details and execution of the plot, of course it's going to be very different. It's like saying that Game A has a "save the world" plot and Game B has a "save the world" plot so all games have boring similar plots.

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Old 01-2-2009, 08:58 AM   #31
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

He didn't say he didn't like BioShock's plot. He even mentioned in the thread opener:

"In fact, even the best of game plots, like Bioshock..." -somethingillremember

"...BioShock sold well. Just because you didn't like the plot..." -Squeek

Posting a massive list of FPS when you know the OP was asking about decent plots, not just any poorly conceived trash for the sake of meeting standards, just seems like intentional misinterpretation to me. If it isn't, though, fair enough. =P

However, I can see exactly what you're saying, Squeek. On that list I saw Battlefield 1942, easily one of my favourite FPS, and it's plot was so minimal it basically only consisted of mission briefings as the maps loaded in Campaign mode. The briefings were pretty much always the same. In fact, the game didn't even have a proper beginning or ending. You started Campaign having had no tutorial. You just killed enemies and took bases until you won. Still an amazing game, in my opinion, due to it's online multiplayer and customisation through expansions/mods. Online multiplayer, as mentioned earlier in the thread, being a massive factor in the success of new FPS.

What I think somethingillremember meant was that he'd like to see more games in the genre with a story which stands out. It's true, developers often slack off in their attempts at really grasping the player's attention with a groundbreaking story or unexpected twists, but games like Half Life and BioShock do stand out in this genre and are great games, well, at least in my opinion.

Also, BioShock being in the Top 10 FPS on 360 is a testament to the idea that FPS with a plot can in fact sell. Now apply such a great plot to an FPS with fantastic multiplayer, and I'm sure the sales won't exactly deteriorate. I honestly don't see where the problem lies with someone suggesting such a thing. You can say "Yeah, but the mainstream only wants solid gameplay!", but if that's the case, why shouldn't they be getting both? I can't think of someone who would whine about that sort of thing unless they were immature, and/or too young to be playing FPS. But maybe it's just me that sees it like that?

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Old 01-2-2009, 09:12 AM   #32
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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I like killing people at CT spawn from T spawn. Seriously 1.6 is ****ing bad.
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Old 01-2-2009, 12:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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You also seem to be generalizing into all games. I thought the discussion was only about FPSs having "amazing" plots to them and yet you're mentioning several sand box and action games. There are plenty of games out there with amazing plots, but you aren't likely to find them in the FPS genre.

If you generalize everything, of course you will see repeats in the story. A lot of shooters have a "kill aliens" setting, but when you look at the finer details and execution of the plot, of course it's going to be very different. It's like saying that Game A has a "save the world" plot and Game B has a "save the world" plot so all games have boring similar plots.

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I already said I was wrong for generalizing things, okay? I'm wrong, everyone else is right, are you happy now? I know I'm being a jerk at the moment, but can everyone stop telling me I'm wrong? I know I'm wrong. Im ****ing admitting it! I still like plot in a game, but I can see that most people don't so I guess it doesn't matter.

And by the way, yes, I'm obviously promoting Marathon, because I like it. I want other people to have fun playing it, too. Is that okay? Besides, Bungie didn't even make Eternal.

Really, sorry if I sound like a dick right now (like, seriously, not sarcastically).

Oh, and thanks Infernova and Barista for supporting!

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Old 01-2-2009, 12:52 PM   #34
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

I just don't see the point in turning something someone said into an argument against them, that's all. It's the sort of thing that I'd imagine could turn people away from posting in forums at all. ;O;'

I'm not usually fussed for incredibly complex stories in most games, to be honest. But it's pretty much essential, as Squeek says, for genres like RPGs to have at least a half-decent plot. Unless it's an MMORPG, like PSO, in which case I just want to grind until I get better equips and farm bosses all day. xD

Oh, and by the way. I played the Marathon Trilogy when I was little. Too young to understand it much, but it was good fun. =P
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Old 01-2-2009, 01:22 PM   #35
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Yeah, RPG's have to have at least descent plots. Some are fun without one, but not many.

I finally beat Eternal, but unfortunately got lost in the plot in the last two or three levels (I managed to keep up with it for the first 50 though...). So I'll have to ask in the pforums (the Marathon forum) what happened, exactly.
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Old 01-2-2009, 03:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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but if that's the case, why shouldn't they be getting both?
Because then they would have two things to focus on. The developers and designers likely don't have the time to work on an enticing story and design an excellent FPS at the same time. Just because Bioshock and Half Life 2 was able to do it doesn't mean that everyone else can. It's not like it's a requirement for an FPS either considering so many have succeeded without a good story as a driving force to the game.

This has been mentioned before, but I believe that the OP would just like to see more FPS games with a good story. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that it's not likely to happen with all the big mainstream games whose developers probably spent months designing something as simple as a reloading system. Also mentioned before, indie games are more likely to focus on a good plot rather than good graphics so until then, just snoop around for good indie FPSs.

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I just don't see the point in turning something someone said into an argument against them
If we all just made our arguments without considering what the other person has said, we'd just be talking to ourselves.

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Old 01-2-2009, 06:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

That's not really why they shouldn't be getting both, but more why they aren't, and I can understand what you mean. The developers will only go with what suits them based on the criteria which fits mainstream FPS gamers best, most of the time. Look at the amount of FPS on the 360 alone though, and you can probably see why I think it appears reasonable to claim it should remain a possibility for an FPS to contain a decent story, whilst retaining a multiplayer aspect. For every shooter that gets around average sales because it's just regurgitating an already worn formula, had the developers spent more time defining the game's plot as something quite different, the success of the game may also, in turn, be different.

By that I don't mean that any old half-assed FPS with a literary epic could out-sell Halo or whatever, because it's far from what I'm saying.

Even me typing this isn't at all relevant to the OP, because I'm pretty sure he was just looking for a discussion about how people feel the genre's quality of storytelling has diminished from back when it played a large part of the game, having had not so great graphics and since they needed something to be able to distinguish one FPS from another.

But yeah, tsugomaru, fair enough, I realise that you should take into consideration what you post about in an argument, although this thread wasn't even meant to be a debate, at least from what I can imagine. xD
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Old 01-2-2009, 06:49 PM   #38
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

All threads are debates unless everyone agrees on something. And this is the Internet. That doesn't happen.
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Old 01-2-2009, 07:09 PM   #39
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Even though I know you're not entirely serious. What about score threads, introductory threads, threads for C&C on art/music, and so on?

Just because it's the internet doesn't mean people can't have a decent conversation with one another. Especially on these forums, since there are many respectable and mature posters. =P
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Old 01-2-2009, 07:36 PM   #40
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

What's not decent about this?

Nobody here has broken any forum rules at all. There's no flaming, no offtopic posts, etc.

Although I am tired of arguing at this point. I've posted the same thing several times now and it's pretty much gone ignored, so there's just no point in continuing.
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