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#61 |
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Very Grave Indeed
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Pretty sure that "I've spoken with people whose field this is, and they've made these claims" is a slightly stronger claim than "Some guy told me so" I direct your attention to the testimony of expert witnesses in courts. Yes, "It MUST be true because someone with authority said so" is a fallacious claim, but "From my personal experience, this claim has been made by several people educated in the field" is perfectly legitimate for the informal discussion format of this forum.
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#62 |
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Don't forget me
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Age: 28
Posts: 6,369
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jesus was also a carpenter, or so ive heard. He was a real person, but what we don't know is if he was our savior. The basis for religion is faith, get some or get out. honestly people are debating something that cannot be proven. Our believing in god(s) is also like believing in the theory of relativity. So far we accept it because no one has proved it wrong, but there may be grounds further ahead in life that can prove it wrong.
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#63 |
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FFR Player
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Oh i'm sorry i thought unsubstantiated claims in debate was oh, i don't know. One of the biggest taboos in the field. And you saying "I talked to professionals and they said he exists" is about as substantiated as the Bible itself.
Especially when it took 2 seconds of google to make the "experts" you supposedly talked to liars. Get on your game Devonin. If you want an "informal" discussion then go talk to buddies so they won't yell at you for saying crazy untrue ****. |
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#64 |
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Very Grave Indeed
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Stop trolling in my forum. Make your points without the attitude.
Every historical claim about any era or aspect of history is hearsay unless there are physical pieces of evidence that survived to this day, and even then, still hearsay. How would a book called "My life as a carpenter" by Jesus of Nazareth that is 2000 years old be any more "convincing" to your standards, than Paul writing about his personal experiences with Jesus 40 years after the fact? Anybody could have written that book, anybody could have slapped a made up name on it, and yet this is what you're insisting is necessary to support his existance? It will be far more likely in 2000 years, that people analyzing the historical record from our day will think Mickey Mouse existed, than will think Grandiagod existed, and you really do exist. Last edited by devonin; 12-19-2008 at 11:33 PM.. |
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#65 |
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FFR Player
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Okay. Your claim that conclusive evidence of Jesus' existence is incredibly untrue and you have no facts to prove it whatsoever. While I linked facts that prove your unsubstantiated assertions incorrect; you will not refute me because you claim to have no evidence on hand.
In short, either retract your assertion or give some proof. EDIT, your edit didn't bring any proof whatsoever. Sorry you're beating around the subject. There is no secular proof that Jesus existed. If there was then i'd believe it. I still wouldn't believe in his divinity. Come up with proof please. Last edited by Grandiagod; 12-19-2008 at 11:38 PM.. |
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#66 |
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Don't forget me
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Age: 28
Posts: 6,369
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haha dev couldn't fight him. well ill give it a shot
your source says that no books were written when he was alive, but none of the sources he used where written in the time he was alive. so where does his proof leads us, absolutely no where. His defense is that book s written about him were not written while he was alive, but nothing was written in his time period saying he wasn't alive. His argument is moot. something i googled didn't read it yet, but its "proof" http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html
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#67 | ||
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FFR Player
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So apparently you talked with 2000 year old scholars. It's not that I don't believe you... wait no never mind no i dont believe you. http://www.culturalresources.com/Jesus.html Quote:
if devonin has actual Roman citations that can confirm this, I would really like to see them =) |
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#68 |
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Very Grave Indeed
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Given that I already described my evidence as being the statements made to me by several professors of history, you will either decide to call their knowledge into question, or not.
Regardless, I should never have suggested that there was 100% factual evidence to support -anything- historical, simply because all history, even history that is archaelogy, is pretty much hearsay. So I retract my claim that the existance of a historical jesus is FACT, but I still deny that you've somehow proven he DIDN'T exist, all you've proven is that there is cause to doubt. But there's cause to doubt all of history. |
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#69 | |
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Very Grave Indeed
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#70 |
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FFR Player
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I wasn't trying to prove he didn't exist. I was just saying that there's no conclusive evidence he existed. He could have existed but there's nothing to definitely say so. And it's not a point you put up for debate.
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#71 | |
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FFR Player
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When I linked that page from Google, I figured if the Romans kept proper records, it would help solidify the argument that a Jesus of Nazareth did indeed exist at one point in time. ps im not good at debating |
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#72 | ||
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Admiral in the Red Army
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Notice also that believing things such as Einstein's theory of relatively are firmly rooted in logic and science. To believe in the principles behind relativity is to believe a fundamental principle of physics that has not only logic behind it, but also tested evidence. Religion has neither. Religion forgoes logic and instead appeals to feelings. It isn't logical to believe in God, but it certainly can feel right. ps grandia, I'm sure you know the site you linked to is mere propaganda. Jesus certainly did live back then. His parables may be fictional, but they're based on a real person. Seriously... "all claims of Jesus derive from hearsay accounts". Does that mean that nothing is real unless I see it with my own eyes? I've never been to New York City, so does that mean it's a fictional city? All I have as reason to believe it exists is what I've learned from others. Bro, this is a subjective reality, and sometimes we have to trust "hearsay accounts" as fact, PARTICULARLY as far as history is concerned. Quote:
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#73 |
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Banned
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there's proof of many things that happened centuries before jesus. Jesus however is not. I have nothing against people believing the religion, but it's tiring to see everyone saying "if god doesn't exist, prove it" when really it would make sense to prove the contrary.
People have faith and a reason to live when they follow religions, this is a good thing. but proving their god exists because they have faith isn't solid proof. |
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#74 | ||
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FFR Player
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#75 | |
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FFR Veteran
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No were land
Age: 31
Posts: 409
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No Does the air exist ? Yes Same for spirit and gods. He dont need to see something to believe it. Do you think blind peoples are bored of the life? No. This help them a lot for the rest of their sense. So tell me Kommisar... Do you need to see the Santa to believe in it? If yes, you must have a problem. |
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#76 |
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Admiral in the Red Army
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Air itself isn't immediately visible to the naked eye, but it is empirically measurable; we can definitively identify its physical existence using proven scientific principles.
The same cannot be said of "spirit and gods". Don't bring your "omg u cant see air just lik u cnt see GOD" ideas 'round these parts. ps granadia, you still suck for seeming to make the argument that nothing is worthy of being "true" unless we hear it from the source.
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#77 |
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FFR Veteran
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No were land
Age: 31
Posts: 409
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Ok, what happen when you put paper in fire.
He came in sender. But the paper always exist in a sense, but in sender. Take this example on the spirit of a human. What happen after the spirit of a human die. Nothing? << Rien ne se pert, Rien ne se cree, mais TOUT se transforme>> Think at this. |
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#78 |
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missa in h-moll
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: nyc
Age: 25
Posts: 3,983
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I'm sorry, I don't comprehend?
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#79 |
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FFR Veteran
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No were land
Age: 31
Posts: 409
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look, one other example:
Music : music don't really exist, but what made rap? Its jazz and blues: mean, nothing its lose, but all upgrade. Same with spirit. |
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#80 | |
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stepmania archaeologist
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But if you don't think a human has a spirit then it does not have to go anywhere. Some people believe that the mind and personality of a dead person is somehow encoded in the brain, so that the 'spirit' decomposes just like the rest of the body. Last edited by qqwref; 12-20-2008 at 04:45 PM.. |
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