Old 10-30-2008, 11:12 AM   #21
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

I understand what you mean now Devonin, and I almost agree with you. The PC game is becoming extinct, and I think that is partially because of the design of the games made for it and that you can't try them out. But the most important reason for that is that I think that consoles, particularly the xbox 360, have done just about everything right in terms of getting people to buy them and games for them.
As I mentioned earlier, creating a game that must be used specifically on a console is itself DRM. The only console where I wouldn't consider it being so is actually the Wii, because the hardware and that the gameplay necessarily requires a TV (or a screen that's fairly large). Well, that and I suppose portable 'consoles' like a DS or PSP. Xbox's and PS's offer nothing new that a computer doesn't already have. It merely offers a specific piece of expensive hardware whose purpose is to solely run games which must be made specifically for it, instead of using a piece of hardware that everyone in their household has. You don't need to worry about pirated games for consoles. However, the expensive 600$, 400$ or 200$ is cheaper than getting an entirely new computer. Consoles also free play tests of just about every game, as well as offering cheaper, smaller games on the console itself, for a reasonable price.
Consoles have also always come out with a huge hype surrounding them; they're something novel, exciting, and once you have the console, you're going to have to buy games for it. Computers just don't have that going for them.

Games prices? Well, I don't have a Target or gamespot near me to rely on. I have EB games, Walmart and ToysRUs. Newer games I see are around 60$. Older games that aren't used are all of 5$ cheaper than they were new (I bought diablo II a year ago or so for something way too expensive), used games are all of 10$ cheaper and are, well, used, and unpopular games, contrary to what vendetta says, simply aren't available for purchase after the first, small shipment sent to store is gone. The only games I see for 30$ are Wii games, and there are few of them.
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Old 11-6-2008, 03:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

PC games becoming extinct? Nonsense. The independent movement is booming with freeware and shareware, and with games by non-corporate players. Mods are plentiful. The era is just beginning.
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Old 11-6-2008, 07:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

Crysis was one of the most pirated games of all time just because of the really high system specs for the time. DRM turns some people to piracy. On amazon.com many people expressed their annoyance at the DRM and refused to buy it, as well as one star rated it. I think Steam is going somewhere with how they are selling the games. Have the program be entirely online, so then you dont need checks to play since you are already online.
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Old 11-7-2008, 06:14 AM   #24
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

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Games prices? Well, I don't have a Target or gamespot near me to rely on. I have EB games, Walmart and ToysRUs. Newer games I see are around 60$. Older games that aren't used are all of 5$ cheaper than they were new (I bought diablo II a year ago or so for something way too expensive), used games are all of 10$ cheaper and are, well, used, and unpopular games, contrary to what vendetta says, simply aren't available for purchase after the first, small shipment sent to store is gone. The only games I see for 30$ are Wii games, and there are few of them.
I went into EB yesterday and Fallout 3, Red Alert 3, and FarCry 2 for PC were all $49.99. PC games rarely go up to $59.99. If we are talking about Xbox 360 and PS3 games, then that's a different story because I don't buy them. And DRM is wholly a moot argument there because to evade the in-built DRM requires voiding your warranty and serious technological expertise, and even hard-core pirates often don't dabble in that because the machines are expensive and they don't want to take risks with them.

Wii games also seem to top out at 49.99, and DS and PSP games top out at 39.99.

The downward pricing trend seems to operate on something of a 2 month cycle, and it is especially apparent with PC games. Stores like Gamestop don't often downward price something, but stores like WalMart and Target do because they turnover product lineups like crazy and they want to expedite the removal of surplus. Age of Conan was $50 four months ago, then it was $30 two months ago, and now it is clearance for $12.28. This model for AoC is indicative of most PC games that aren't big sellers.

Though the titles you probably want, for the most part, will stay at their release price for 6 months to a year, they will come down a notch when their sales start coming down. Mass Effect is now $40, and this was effective around 6 months after release.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:05 AM   #25
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

Touche cool-gamer. I'm bitching too much.

Vendetta: Guess I'm wrong about a lot of prices, although there still may be differences between the US and Canada, if you're American.

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Old 11-12-2008, 01:04 PM   #26
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

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Canada.
Oh. Sorry rofl. Yeah you guys get the crap deal on everything. Like when the Canadian dollar was worth more than American dollar and stuff at WalMart in calgary was still like 30% more expensive than the dollar I was like "Wow they really get reemed on prices here."

And it was negative 44 degrees celsius out and you couldn't even make a snowball with the snow it was just a frozen shithole where every time the wind picks up a little any exposed piece of skin gets obliterated, and I was like "Stuff is more expensive, there's nothing but oil and snow here, and the potato pancakes at smitties don't taste like potatoes. Why the hell would you want to live in Calgary."

I'll admit the metro system and the 9 miles of covered walkway between shopping centers was pretty rad, but seriously, Calgary sucks, and in this instance it is a microcosm for most of Canada.
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Old 11-25-2008, 03:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

The thing is, if you know where to look, games that are made by third-parties or that are DRM free are literally everywhere.

http://www.manifestogames.com/ has made a successful business model from providing games made by individuals and small corporations, for very small prices, with NO DRM. You can get a relatively good game from there for just $5 and download it instantly. The money is mainly used to directly support the makers of the game, eliminating the middle man of the corporate powers pocketing money.

For regular corporate games that support it, modifications and user made patches are plentiful. For example, there's a patch for System Shock 2 that totally overhauls the graphics and textures to maximum effect, making it seem almost like a new game.

User created content is something consoles have generally not supported, and only now consoles are connecting online to support it. However, they still monitor the content to fit "company policy". PC Gamers don't have to deal with that. We can literally hack games code by code, release custom patches to fix things, release content. Want to make Unreal Tournament 2003 a racing game? There's a mod for it.

Companies that use DRM will either continue to use it or learn that people will find alternatives.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

I think it is simple.

DRM or any sort of copy protection or binding, while apparently designed to protect sales and prevent piracy, serve only to hinder legitimate customers and thus discourage them from future purchases.

It serves the opposite of its theoretical intended purpose.

Software pirates either crack the protections themselves, patch the software, then distribute it, or they download such crack-patched software that others have uploaded somewhere. They get to play an unencumbered game.

Legitimate customers buy the software and are subject to any and all idiosyncratic whims of the copy protection of that software. It is the case sometimes that a false positive happens, which means that a legitimate customer is accused of having pirated software, and thus the software will refuse to run for that user. The software pirate, meanwhile, is not faced with this. Is that fair?

Anyone who does any serious computer work understands these issues. They understand that DRM or any sort of copy protection is a failed attempt and can only serve to hinder and discourage actual customers while not serving to curb piracy in any statistically significant measurable way.

The problem is that those who understand these things are not those who are making the decisions to put the DRM or copy protection in there in the first place. They are told to do so by their bosses (or their bosses' bosses, etc...) who likely do not have a firm hold on technical knowledge and, instead, have been convinced somewhere along the line that such "solutions" actually work. In any case, faced with the situation where your boss tells you to include something, you include it in the software or you go find a different job.

It is really unfortunate, in my opinion, that the business types are the ones making technological decisions. It should be the technological types making technological decisions and business types making business decisions.

Also you will notice there are some companies which do not encumber their software with DRM or other forms of copy protection. I would encourage each and every one of you to consider purchasing from such companies before you consider purchasing from DRM/copy protection advocating companies.

There are many free demos of things out there as well. I would also encourage each of you to try out a free demo of whatever game (or software) you were going to buy before purchase. This will let you know if it will work well on your computer beforehand. If a company won't make a free demo available, then how should you know it would even work correctly on your computer without risking purchasing it just to have it possibly fail and to be out however much money it cost?

Surely, software piracy in any form is a bad thing. But it is my personal belief that aggressive forms of copy protection are far worse. I think companies need to extend goodwill towards their customers by not shackling them with DRM or others and, instead, rely on this goodwill to further sales. Yes, there will be piracy with such a system in place but there would be piracy regardless. At least you aren't harming your legitimate customers this way.

--my thoughts
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Old 11-30-2008, 01:42 AM   #29
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

I still think that DRM is a bad idea, but regardless, there are plenty of legitimate customers out there who aren't too bothered by the idea of DRM. In theory, DRM ruins customer experience if they aren't able to correctly install the game within the number of times you are allowed to use the game or if you have to download the game on multiple systems. However, for your typical customer, they are able to correctly download the game on their computer and play it once or twice and put it away, never to be touched again. I have several friends who bought a legit copy of Spore, played it once, and have never touched it ever again. They didn't say their experience was extremely good, but I believe that's more of the game's fault than the DRM protection. They also didn't say their experience was ruined just knowing that they were limited to X amount of installs or the fact you had to play online. I don't think being online is such a big issue anymore because a lot of people always connected anyway.

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Old 12-3-2008, 09:23 PM   #30
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

I dunno if this is DRM or not, but I can't seem to stream video from my computer to my xbox through my wireless connection if I have iTunes installed. I suspect that DRM on the part of iTunes is preventing the proper sharing.
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Old 12-4-2008, 09:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: DRM in todays PC games

I hate DRM. It screws over honest users and makes things very inconvenient, while the people DRM is intended to punish essentially get around it anyway.


EDIT: I haven't read the thread so if I am simply repeating people, then I apologize. But I really do hate DRM. In my eyes, the repercussions of the concept were obvious... what were they thinking?
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