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#61 | |
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TWG Veteran
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Quote:
And it got onto how adequate a president she would be. Then I sad that no matter who the next presidedent will be they'll suck because they have to dig us out of Bush's hole. Then...you get the point. But in essence, she reitterated (sp?) my point. |
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#62 |
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Very Grave Indeed
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The thing is Chrissi, the American presence in Japan is some guys standing around an embassy looking important. The American presence in Iraq is a hostile occupation force.
The presence of Americans in Iraq has made the country LESS stable, there is MORE conflict, more violence, more damage being done to people and property than there was before the Americans invaded. Nobody has been advocating that the US remove all its troops from the Middle East. They have forces in Israel that are pretty much propping up the whole country from being retaken by Palestinians, they have troops involved in peacekeeping missions in a number of other places, but they are there through the auspices of the UN, invited, with a specific job to do. The thing I've been advocating is the removal of an uninvited, illegal, hostile occupation force that has done more to cause Iraqi death and destruction in oh God it's been over 5 years now, than in the previous ten. America's presence in Iraq is not peaceful. They invaded, toppled the legally recognized if not the nicest legitimate authority, and sparked off some of the worst sectarian violence the country has ever had. |
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#63 |
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TWG Veteran
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Another thing we can most likely agree on (excluding devonin, I assume) is that America has invaded. America has caused turmoil. America has done damage. Iraq was an unstable country. The Middle East was an unstable region. Iraq did need assistance. Those are all relatively classified facts.
However, like I just said, America DID invade. There's no denying or changing that. But the thing is, it's too late to do anything about what's already happened. Had more thought gone into the decisian, more efficiency we would see. But it didn't. |
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#64 |
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Very Grave Indeed
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America invaded: yes I agree
America caused turmoil: yes I agree America has done damage: yes I agree Iraq was an unstable country: I disagree, compared to a number of countries including putative allies of America, Iraq was one of the most stable countries in the region The Middle East is unstable: They've been forced into the channels they are in, and if there is instability it is only these nations trying to assert their own national identity against the mold of enforced western ideas. Iraq needed assistance: Assistance to do what? Overthrow the legitimate leader? Spark off huge amounts of sectarian violence? Tell the ruling ethnic group that they were forced to adapt to democracy thus giving power to the non-ruling ethnic group? Yeah but you see, you just don't invade sovereign powers -without- putting that "more thought" into it. America violated a large number of international laws by ignoring the UN and invading without their support. |
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#65 |
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TWG Veteran
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Yes, based on the other Middle Eastern countries Iraq was the most stable. The key words there are 'other Middle Eastern countries'. However, based on the 'civilized' countries like Americe, Canada, England, France, and most other European countries, it was not.
The Iraqis needed their dictator to be taken out of power, like Castro, Hitler, Mussolini, Stolan (spelling?), King George, etc. The difference between the way they fell from power and the way Saddam fell from power is the outcome. When they fell from power/were assassinated/seceded(sp?), the opposing country(s) did not collapse into the hell Iraq is. Had America taken the former dictator from power in a better fashion, such hell could be avoided (don't ask me for an idea on how to have done that, I don't have anymore than you do). |
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#66 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 346
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Better fashion? It comes down to that US took power, or they didn't.
The fact was that Iraq needed the stability of dictatorship to maintain order. Regardless of method, this order was nulled by the US occupation. I do not think that some alternative method would appease the situation Iraq is currently in, unless you care to support your answer. |
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#67 |
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TWG Veteran
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Seems pretty pointless to ask me to support something I just said I had no theories on ... I'll try anyway.
Say ... say America took Saddam and used him as a puppet. Or they ... that's relatively all I've got... you have anything better? |
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