Old 04-29-2004, 12:44 AM   #21
jewpinthethird
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I'm done with the arguing and whatnot. I am just going to stay out of it. Believe what you want. Just keep in mind that history repeats itself and it is our right, if not duty, as Americans to question authority. Do not always believe what you hear from anyone. Just because he is the President that doesnt make him right. Research both sides yourself. And try watching something other than Fox News.
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Old 04-29-2004, 01:30 AM   #22
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Aww, that's too bad, Jewpin; this's been fun!

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Old 04-29-2004, 01:32 AM   #23
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I'll agree that Afghanistan was justifiable, and I'll agree that terrorism needs to be fought, hell, I'll even say that going into Iraq had decent reasons behind it (good enough reasons - I'm not so sure, but there were reasons).... of course it would have been better if Iraq just up and attacked... France or somebody (however unlikely it was) to garner more international support.

But what I can't stand is how the "war" is being handled, all this patriotism, hero-medal-handing-out and buzzwording (Operation Iraqi Freedom, Home Land Security.... shiest, what 3rd grader came up with these? At least "Desert Storm" sounded cool) is just driving me sick. Also, when you're fighting terrorists, you don't sit out in the open making yourself a target (like our soldiers are doing now), guerilla tactics require a change in strategy, and the fact that we've still got bodybags coming back daily shows something ain't goin right. As somebody previously said, "use a scalple, not a hammer," and I couldn't agree more. We should have assisted Iraq in rebelling against Saddam, not doing it for them. As far as the torture and mass-murdering goes.. no matter how horrible it was, if a populace won't rise against it, they probably can't govern themselves effectively.

Another point about how the war was/is being run... the cost. The figure being tossed around is 150 Billion, that's obscene. Not only were we in a economic depression, and GWB had just issued tax cuts, but now we've got a bill like that to pay off? There goes Clinton's headway into the national debt. Now our grandkids are going to be paying for all the defaceit spending going on.
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Old 04-29-2004, 02:00 AM   #24
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It may disgust you, but you've gotta understand that all that patriotism, buzzwording, etc. exists because it works. It probably sounds ridiculous to the people who created it, but it gets support for the war. It's like any other advertising. You may thing you know the ins and outs of it and understand all the dirty tactics that advertisers may use, but ads get results from the people who aren't concerned about the tactics (and probably many of those who do to a certain extent, despite what they say). I'm not trying to tell you that you're subconsiously supporting this war in a way due to buzzwords, after all, this isn't some commercial, but that many other people are. My point is that this patriotism and stuff that you don't like isn't a way of handling the war, but rather a way of garnering support for it, like any leader does in a time of crisis. Public support is necessary, and that's just one way of attaining it.

The fact that we have bodybags coming back daily shows that we're in a war, and the other side doesn't like it too much, not necessarily that we're doing something wrong. Wars have casualties (Desert Storm was an anomaly and was under different circumstances).

Regarding the scalpel comment and helping Iraqis rebel, I couldn't agree more. The only problem is how do you go into another country and organize an effective rebellion with a people who are so politically repressed that they're scared to do anything. Saddam had eyes on his country, so there was little they could do by themselves, even with a little help from us. The only thing we could do was give them arms and troops, which crosses the scalpel to hammer line. The point is that sometimes the scalpel just isn't enough. Saddam was a tough opponent, and we needed force to bring him down.

Also, you're completely right about the populace being able to govern themselves, and that's why it's been so tough rebuilding there.

As for the cost of the war, yeah, that's a problem; wars aren't cheap. Hell, if the war was free, I'd be all up for going to kick the shit out of North Korea right now. Nobody wants deficit spending and debt, but the war in Iraq wasn't just some appropriations bill, it was something we needed to do. My solution? Slash domestic government programs, but that's another debate entirely. The fact is that this war has been costly, but that's just another obstacle to overcome.

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Old 04-29-2004, 02:23 AM   #25
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The whole thing about the patriotism and all was more of a rant letting out steam... I understand how it works and how it's effective, it's just sickening whenever I see the mob-mentality at work. I find it pathetic.

As far as the casualties, I know wars can't be bloodless... it's just that it seems to be an ineffective strategy to use a heavy-handed military police force against an enemy that can organize in shadow and strike suddenly out of nowhere (in addition to some not having a regard for their own life). All this is to say I think a change of tactics is in order... something a lot more counter-terrorist and less domestic-police-force if you get my meaning.

A wild idea floating around in my head is if we were just to leave, or make a minimal presence in Iraq.. what kind of pecking order would arise from it? Order always comes from chaos somehow (as seen in organized crime or even the organization of these terrorist groups). The people seem to want freedom and "democracy" (I don't hold a high opinion of American government, sorry) any speculation on what would happen if we just left them to their own devices now that we've ousted and captured Saddam and most of his regime?
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Old 04-29-2004, 03:44 AM   #26
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Points taken, peregrine.

As for what would happen if they were left to their own devices, I think Iraq would quickly degenerate, because a society that's as developed as theirs needs an enormous amount of constant maintenance. They've been so repressed and become so acquainted with being ruled by Saddam that they couldn't form an effective government in any short period of time, and after a while I think people would look into moving to other, stable, countries or just living in a run-down society.
What if some horrible thing happened to all of OUR government officials? I even find it hard to believe there'd be initial chaos because of our federalist system. There'd be someone to assume power, even in an ad hoc form. However, the Iraqi system most likely didn't allow for assumption of power. Anyway, that's what I'd think.

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Old 04-29-2004, 03:53 PM   #27
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A few of you guys, especially IronMonk and Jewpin need to calm down a bit a look at what you've just said.

Iron: They DID use a scalpel. No one has ever done a military invasion so precise, ever.

Jewpin: It wasn't intelligence error. It wasn't lies. Calm down! They had no idea at all about 9/11, that was just a rumor that was spreading. Also, the CIA has been doing fine. Bush tried to get backup from the UN, but they refused to follow through with their promises. We've spent the last 10 years looking for a peaceful solution. War was our last resort. He has his priorities straight. More money wouldn't do diddly for the research that is being done on those topics. Besides, the government isn't allowed to give money to those organizations. He has his priorities totally straight.

Perfect Fat: That's a blatant lie. America soldiers don't enter your home if you don't like democracy. They enter your home if you fired a rocket at them an hour or two ago.

You guys seriously need to do some research, and you especially Jewpin, need to calm down and look at things.

Bush went into Iraq with a $$ of about 70-80 Billion. He hasn't even come close to using that all up. They went in for a true surgical war and did it right. Now that we have things calmed down there isn't a military police, it is patrols of the fighting zones in only 3-4 cities. 99% of Iraq is living in perfect peace right now, it just seems otherwise because of the bias way every news channel has been presenting it. The money was well spent because nothing could be done to help cancer or electric cars, mostly because the government has given them all the money they need. As Jewpin said, 1.5 million die a year, but only one of his numbers is restricted to America. 1.5 million a year over the entire globe when we gain 3.2 million per year is nothing. I feel sorry for those people, but it is a different situation.

Oh, and perfect fat, I'm sorry to tell you but only 6 soldiers acting inappropriately is not even close to letting you generalize that statement. Iraqis do have a much better life, it is just that you guys seriously only listen to the TV news, which just happens to be the most bias source possible for this news. I suggest you check in on their newspapers for better info.
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:11 PM   #28
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Sorry Guido, I am just too biased and tired to argue anymore. No matter how much I argue, nothing will change, no matter how much you argue, nothing will change. All I can say is wait to see what happens...just wait.

Also, "80 billion" would have helped a lot in Cancer research and Electric Car research (since electric cars are pretty much almost there: http://www.gmev.com/ )
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:37 PM   #29
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Jewpin, electric & hyrdogen (better) cars are already there. The only problem they need to work out is mass production and station distribution. Also, cancer research is looking for an answer we aren't even sure exists. They would have to find a way to disable specific genes in specific cells or kill individual cells without harm to the others. We don't know if we will ever get close to that kind of precision.
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:42 PM   #30
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Perfect Fat: That's a blatant lie. America soldiers don't enter your home if you don't like democracy. They enter your home if you fired a rocket at them an hour or two ago.

I like how you didn't reply to my link. Typical.

EDIT: New car I'm probbly buying is a Honda Civic Hybrid. WOO!
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:22 PM   #31
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Dude, I replied to your link: "Oh, and perfect fat, I'm sorry to tell you but only 6 soldiers acting inappropriately is not even close to letting you generalize that statement. Iraqis do have a much better life..."

I stuck it at the end 'cause no one ever reads the whole thing :P
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:33 PM   #32
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LOL self-ownage

I don't watch the TV news though. I find CNN to have a bias that's extremely right of my beliefs.
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Old 05-2-2004, 02:33 AM   #33
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Suck it.

I think Iraq is gonna be huge shithole (metaphorically) when (or if) we finally pull out of there.

PS: When I think of what's going on in Iraq, the first thing that comes to mind is Black Hawk Down. NOT THE MOVIE, the book. The book is a trillion times better. If you havent read it, you need you. You really do need to.
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