Old 03-1-2007, 11:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

The math is just one of the many flaws of Evolution.

How does a simple cell become a complex cell in a world were things rot?

If I set a grape on a table will it become somthing better? more complex? or will it rot?

Sorry I dont know the fancy term for it, but you cant deny that the world follows "laws" and there's no way that something sitting around will just become more complex.

The idea that the earth heated and that did it is off, too. I'll set my grape in a oven and see what happens, oops, didnt make a new fruit.

The idea that we are apart of a bigger picture sounds better then Evolution.
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Old 03-2-2007, 12:00 AM   #22
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

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Originally Posted by MixMasterLar View Post
The math is just one of the many flaws of Evolution.

How does a simple cell become a complex cell in a world were things rot?

If I set a grape on a table will it become somthing better? more complex? or will it rot?
If you set a grape on a table and it can produce new offspring, each of which has a small chance of being slightly different in some way, and you have chardish on the table who sprays darker grapes with something which makes them reproduce twice as quickly, you're going to end up with darker grapes. Rotting is completely irrelevant because evolution acts on a population, not an organism.

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Originally Posted by MixMasterLar
Sorry I dont know the fancy term for it, but you cant deny that the world follows "laws" and there's no way that something sitting around will just become more complex.
Dem grapes is gettin' some, not sitting there. Also, baseless extrapolation of "laws" leads nowhere.
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Old 03-2-2007, 12:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

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Rotting is completely irrelevant because evolution acts on a population, not an organism.
eh I think evolution IS about organisms

I brought up the rotting bit to make you relized that things go to disorder and not inprovement. As far back as man can remember it's been that way. The idea that a "bang" made a cell that sat untill it got better does not go with the way things work in the world (disregarding the "bang" flaw in which a explosion happened for no reason whatsoever)
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Old 03-2-2007, 12:15 AM   #24
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

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eh I think evolution IS about organisms
It's you vs. the scientific community. En garde.
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I brought up the rotting bit to make you relized that things go to disorder and not inprovement. As far back as man can remember it's been that way. The idea that a "bang" made a cell that sat untill it got better does not go with the way things work in the world (disregarding the "bang" flaw in which a explosion happened for no reason whatsoever)
Who on earth told you that things sit there and suddenly get better? They have to be reproducing. As for things going to disorder and not improvement, do you also disbelieve in Newton's first law? After all, if I roll a marble on a floor, does it not come to a stop? Why shouldn't everything obey this "law?" Extrapolation isn't always valid.
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Old 03-2-2007, 12:15 AM   #25
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

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I brought up the rotting bit to make you relized that things go to disorder and not inprovement.
No, it doesn't. There is even abiotic ordering in nature. For example, planetary formations are simply a product of newtonian collision in frictionless space... It's perfectly natural that small particles collide and condense to form large spherical objects over time. Additionally, you need to do some serious reading into machine learning and statistical learning before you start throwing around lofty claims like that.
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Old 03-3-2007, 08:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

"Who on earth told you that things sit there and suddenly get better? They have to be reproducing. As for things going to disorder and not improvement, do you also disbelieve in Newton's first law? After all, if I roll a marble on a floor, does it not come to a stop? Why shouldn't everything obey this "law?" Extrapolation isn't always valid."


Alright, the Marbles stops because of friction and gravity, and it only started because you pushed it. Those are all forces acting on the Marble. Now the Big Bang theory starts out with a single atom. What forces are acting on it? There's no other objects for gravity. There aren't any other atoms to ineract with. But it still explodes. Why? It wasn't reproducing, atoms don't just reproduce. So what caused the Big Bang? And I'm seriously looking for an answer because I just don't see any.
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Old 03-3-2007, 08:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

What I see is that who-knows-what started the big bang. Like an electron hitting another electron, who knows??? I don't. It's still theory. Pure theory.
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Old 03-3-2007, 09:15 PM   #28
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

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Alright, the Marbles stops because of friction and gravity, and it only started because you pushed it. Those are all forces acting on the Marble.
Cellular machinery makes mistakes, environmental factors can exacerbate these mistakes, and mistakes can sometimes lead to moar babies. Besides, the only point of the example was to show how stupid it is to say that there are "laws" of nature which everything follows judging from a few observations.
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Now the Big Bang theory starts out with a single atom.
Where'd you get that idea?
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Old 03-3-2007, 10:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

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Now the Big Bang theory starts out with a single atom. What forces are acting on it? There's no other objects for gravity. There aren't any other atoms to ineract with. But it still explodes. Why? It wasn't reproducing, atoms don't just reproduce. So what caused the Big Bang? And I'm seriously looking for an answer because I just don't see any.
Now the big bang didn't start out with a single atom. Quantum forces were acting on the energy that was there. There was only quantum gravity I would say.

Why does it explode? There are several ways it could, though noone knows yet, mostly because we can only see back to the instant before the big bang.


If you want a possible answer, it would be possible a sufficiently large quantum fluctuation could cause the energy to expand. Energy on the quantum level is always going to have forces acting on it, and assuming enough time passes there is nothing to say a massive quantum flux couldn't happen.

The big bang wasn't a classic explosion, but was an inflation of energy...a very fast inflation at that. To put it into perspective, maybe imagine a grain of sand, and then imagine it within a trillionth of a second expanding to a distance far outside of our galaxy and galactic cluster.
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Old 03-3-2007, 10:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

Mixmaster, reread the second law of thermodynamics to see why your argument makes no sense.
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Old 03-4-2007, 08:59 PM   #31
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

Statistics in something like this have little bearing. Every characteristic you have, from the color of your eyes to the number of pores on your body, could have been otherwise. I'm not saying God has no command over it. An omnipotent power could have just as easily willed that you have blonde hair as it could will that your hair is brown, red, or purple, really.
Given all the things that could be changed about you, the chances of you being exactly the way you are (or even anyone exactly like you ever walking the earth) are unfathomably small when you take into account every single alterable thing about your body and mind, no matter what your belief is concerning how you came to be. Are you willing to assert that you do not exist just because the chances dont support it?
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: Evolution: Mathematically improbably?

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According to Borel’s Law anything with a chance smaller than 10^-50 (this number in decimal would look like .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 1) is deemed to be impossible regardless of the amount of chances or time one could assume. Noted Evolutionist Richard Dawkins proposed a loose standard of 10^-20 and stated that anything smaller is biologically impossible (Dawkins 1996). More recently the mathematician William Dembski, placed a much more stringent set of requirements of improbability and asserted that anything over 10^-150 should be deemed as absolutely impossible (Mastropaolo 1999).
these theories are false for 2 reasons

1 (assuming a coin has an equal chance of landing on heads and tails and that it can only land on one or the other)
the probability of a coin landing on heads is 50%
the probability of a coin landing on the same side 167 times in a row is
1.07 * 10^-50. or (.5^166) that is (100% chance once then 50% 166 times)
according to Borel's law a coin can land on the sam side 167 times in a row however the probability of it landing on heads 167 times in a row is
5.35 * 10^-51. or (.5^167) that is (50% repeated 167 times)
as is the probability of landing on tails 167 times in a row
so according to borel's law the coin can land on the same side 167 times but it cant land on either heads or tails thats same number of times.

2 there are an infinite number of chances for any even to occur so if an even is possible then it will occur and or has occured and or will continue to occur.

as for the big bang
my opinion is that the "multiverse" has always existed with no begining or end and that the begining of our universe was brought about by a big bang. the big bang occured when a super dense singularity exploded. the singularity was the product of an enormus black hole that had be come so huge and dense that the matter inside caused it to over heat. the matter inside the black hole would have come from previous universes and it would have always existed (matter can not be created or destroyed)

of course if there is an infinite span of time in both directions (past and future) one might argue that it would be impossible to reach the "present" frame. and therefor the "present" would never occur. however consider this: the "present" frame never occurs. the frame is always going to be aproching infinity. this would allow an infinite past and future and would also explain why time is "occuring" or "passing". this is one of the reasons time is considered an illusion or relative.

as for the spontainious creation of life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_life

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