Old 02-14-2007, 05:49 PM   #61
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Slipstrike thats way out of line, why shouldn't people think it's alright? Not everybody is a Christian so not everybody is going to see being gay as "an abomination against Gods creation". Also, hate the sin, love the sinner! just because you hate people actually being gay, doesn't mean you should dislike people who are gay.
If you dislike the gay community for being gay then you should also dislike your school community, and dislike your neighbours, because I'm sure most of them aren't Christians, and as such, mock God
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:52 PM   #62
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Again, this is why I am not Christian. This is why I naturally hate this institution because it spews out insensitive, ignorant morons like yourself. Contemplating muder is the same as thinking about it. Dismissing the thought still means you THOUGHT it and thus, you SINNED. So you are saying you can dismiss a sin? What gave you that transcendent power? That's probably the worst piece of garbage I've heard in a while.

Are you saying that being gay is morally wrong in the eyes of God? Why is that exactly? Because gays are sinners. You are a sinner too. And thus, you are morally wrong in the eyes of God. But you are also forgetting that He is forgiving. Without Him being forgiving, everyone would be totally screwed in the afterlife (if there was one, I"m not promoting any religion here). The idea isn't trying to please God and be a perfect human being because that is IMPOSSIBLE. The idea is to have faith in God that He will forgive you in the end for your life. Just because I am gay, it does not lower my chances of being accepted by God because each sin is weighed the same. If I was a perfect human being but gay, would that mean I would automatically be looked down upon? Of course not. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I am a good person and a stupid CIRCUMSTANCE (ie. sexual orientation if you missed it last time) shouldn't affect my happiness, both in this world and the next.

Like I said before, the church is corrupt. The teachings of God and Jesus Christ aren't to try and be just like them, but rather, to try and be forgiving and accepting that man sins and there is nothing you can do about it. Faith in God that He will accept you is the main focus of Christianity.

Honestly though, are you saying that you are better then me because I am a homosexual and you are heterosexual? What does homosexuality mean in the big picture? I like honey and you like jam. I like to have sex with people of the same gender and you like to have sex with those of the opposite gender. It isn't even anyone's business but my own. Condemn me all you want because I've honestly heard it all. "YOU'RE A SINNER CAMERON. YOU'RE GOING TO HELL. BEING GAY IS A CHOICE. YOU ARE CHOSING TO SIN, WHICH MAKES YOU A BAD PERSON." Unreasonable ignorance. It really is.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:19 PM   #63
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Well, you asked why i very much so hated people being gay and i gave you my reason. You cant take one persons opinion and apply it to all of the people in my faith (ugh... i know im going to be called a hypocrite for this one <_<).
Im not saying im better than you because there are things i struggle with too, i am just saying that promoting sin in such a way that it is alright by the standards of the media and people who agree. You will find that i will fight equally hard against any other sin the rest of the world thinks is "okay".
Also, according to what i believe there is something you can do, you can repent of the sins that you do commit because as you said, it is impossible not to sin for everyone save Christ who was the son of God.
You are right in that it is about accepting and not judging other people, however that does not mean that you should accept sinning as okay. To try and limit the amount of sins i need to repent for i try to shun sin as much as i can and since it is known that the more you hang around someone the more you become like them i personally believe that even if you arent gay and you hang out with a lot of gay people and dont think its wrong eventually you will slowly start thinking it is even less of a deal as you thought at first. From this you yourself will start taking in some of their personalities and ideas which might break you and possibly make you question whether or not you are straight. You have to think, there is no way that homosexuality would be so big and widely accepted if there was just one person who was by themself in his thought. It spreads through being around a certain mindset for long enough. Can you honestly say that you know absolutely none else that is gay or that you had never known of homosexuality before you "came out of the closet" so to speak?
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:31 PM   #64
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ckj, I'd be wary about your liberal use of the word ignorant, were I you, considering some of the things you're saying about Christianity. You admit you're not a Christian, and I presume you're not a learned scholar of the religion, so you're very much in ignorance of the side you're attacking, too.

Every time you say the problems of the world are caused by ignorance, you're just coming off as pretentious, as if you're enlightened somehow. Sure, you may be a little more informed about homosexuality than others,
but you're severely hampering your arguments, there.

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If I was a perfect human being but gay, would that mean I would automatically be looked down upon? Of course not.
If you're perfect otherwise, but still live in sin and continually spurn God's laws in even one case without remorse, I think you'd have a pretty heavy weight around your waist, and the "I was born gay; I can't help it, so you I shouldn't be held accountable for my actions" excuse won't cut it.

Recall that one of the big caveats of forgiveness is that you have to seek repentance and desist from the sin in the future; You can't just go out and commit any sin you want and figure that he'll forgive you.

Now, regarding the "every sin is weighed the same" comment, in what context are you saying that? Because I'm having a hard time believing that murder and a little white lie are on the same level of every judgment. Sure, they both disappoint God, but you're suggesting that there's no distinction between mortal and venial sin. Who's in hell if that's so, since the biggest sin is forgiven with the smallest sin (or who's in heaven if the smallest sin is as bad as the biggest)?

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Old 02-15-2007, 07:17 AM   #65
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Now, regarding the "every sin is weighed the same" comment, in what context are you saying that? Because I'm having a hard time believing that murder and a little white lie are on the same level of every judgment. Sure, they both disappoint God, but you're suggesting that there's no distinction between mortal and venial sin. Who's in hell if that's so, since the biggest sin is forgiven with the smallest sin (or who's in heaven if the smallest sin is as bad as the biggest)?

--Guido
I believe the smallest sin is as bad as the biggest and thus everybody goes to hell, unless they repent of course...
Murder and a little white lie are both big enough to send you to hell, but through accepting Jesus died on the cross for us and repenting of all our sins, we are forgiven of all our sins, past, present and future.

"To try and limit the amount of sins i need to repent for i try to shun sin as much as i can and since it is known that the more you hang around someone the more you become like them i personally believe that even if you arent gay and you hang out with a lot of gay people and dont think its wrong eventually you will slowly start thinking it is even less of a deal as you thought at first. From this you yourself will start taking in some of their personalities and ideas which might break you and possibly make you question whether or not you are straight." - Slipstrike

Firstly, I really need to learn how to multiquote!
Secondly, I don't think you can be turned gay by hanging out with some gay people. Jesus hung out with all sorts of people and he didn't become a sinner. If we don't have non-christian friends, how are we ever going to bring people to God

ckj, the idea of the Christian faith is not just to have faith in God that he will forgive us when it's all over but to actively try not to sin, his mercy is a gift when we do sin, not an excuse to sin.

"The teachings of God and Jesus Christ aren't to try and be just like them, but rather, to try and be forgiving and accepting that man sins and there is nothing you can do about it." - CKJ

Not true, the teachings of God and Jesus are to try your very hardest to be exactly like them, knowing that we will screw up 99.9% of the time but hoping in that .1% of the time when we do things right for God then people will recognise that.
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:48 AM   #66
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Alright folks, I gotta get to school here soon, and this will be my last post in this thread since everyone seems to be running in circles. Each sin is the same in the eyes of God. That does not mean that on earth we should treat them all as the same. A lie to god is the same as murder, but you people are acting like sin is individual. We are sinners. When you pray to God at the end of the night do you go down the list and singularly ask for forgiveness for each time you sinned? If you repent and ask God into your heart, then you are forgiven. Quit acting like he sits there with a calculater and goes "Oh, he did that, that's worse then that, so that comes to equal blah blah." Because if you murder someone and at the end of the day you feel awful about it and in your heart repent, and to the Lord, you repent, then (if truly following the word of God and not being some judgemental loser) you are a better person and should be allowed into Heaven.

None of us can speak for God, the religion itself may be entirely bull. All we can do is interpret the bible to the best of our abilities.

And onto the Gay thing. Everyone needs to keep in mind. The Bible was written by man! It may be the word of God, but it's the hand of man. I can GUARANTEE that it was manipulated by the church many times to fit the ways it wanted its people to live. And since people have always shunned differences, that would mean that people have ALWAYS shunned homosexuality. That's a part of the bible where I'm pretty certain was added by man. Why? Because being gay, and having tried for years to stop (before I came to accept it and like myself) I couldn't change it. People who are gay, are BORN gay. It is not something that can be changed. If you believe that God created all life, then you agree that he created Gays, in which case, it's not a sin! Maybe God created them to show you that love can come in many different forms, and to accept them all as love. Because as we all know, God's version of love can come in many different forms. Whether it means making you trip and smack your nose on the cement or killing a close relative all for the better of you. Who are we to judge God's plan? We aren't prophets here. God has not taken the time to physically speak to any of you.

Reminder - I am not a Christian nor am I promoting the religion.

Quote that I read a while back, not sure who said it, "Why is it that born again Christians often make you wish they were never born at all?"
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:11 AM   #67
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Seeing as I am inept and can't multiquote, Ill just put in quotation marks bits of your post Wlfwind

"this will be my last post in this thread since everyone seems to be running in circles"

Amen, except replace last, with almost last

"Each sin is the same in the eyes of God. That does not mean that on earth we should treat them all as the same. A lie to god is the same as murder, but you people are acting like sin is individual. We are sinners. When you pray to God at the end of the night do you go down the list and singularly ask for forgiveness for each time you sinned? If you repent and ask God into your heart, then you are forgiven. Quit acting like he sits there with a calculater and goes "Oh, he did that, that's worse then that, so that comes to equal blah blah." Because if you murder someone and at the end of the day you feel awful about it and in your heart repent, and to the Lord, you repent, then (if truly following the word of God and not being some judgemental loser) you are a better person and should be allowed into Heaven.

None of us can speak for God, the religion itself may be entirely bull. All we can do is interpret the bible to the best of our abilities."

Amen again... completely agree with you

"Everyone needs to keep in mind. The Bible was written by man! It may be the word of God, but it's the hand of man. I can GUARANTEE that it was manipulated by the church many times to fit the ways it wanted its people to live."

Here's where I have to disagree with you, although I can see how from a non-Christian point of view it can appear that way, I believe the bible is the word of God, thus things that weren't exactly as God wanted them, weren't included in the bible, (ie. the Gnostic Gospels etc.)

"If you believe that God created all life, then you agree that he created Gays, in which case, it's not a sin"

This is going to come out wrongly... but it makes sense in my mind. This would imply that all babies are physically and mentally perfect, which we know isn't true as babies are born with all sorts of disease and problems. Now I'm making it sound like being gay is a disease, it's not what I mean, but do you kinda see what I'm getting at?

You know throughout this whole thread I don't think I've ever discussed whether I believe homosexuality is a sin or not. Well I believe it is due to the verse in Leviticus. However I also believe homosexuals can be Christians, in fact, there is a lesbian couple at my church and they are really great people. Maybe them being gay is not right but in the end I know it's not my place to judge and it is certainly not my place to stop them coming to church and worshipping God. At the end of the day all I can is pray for them, let them know my views and still show them all the christian love I have for them. I also know that they will be up in heaven, for even if they are sinning, they are also forgiven, for all their sins, even the things they might not know are sins.

"Quote that I read a while back, not sure who said it, "Why is it that born again Christians often make you wish they were never born at all?""

This is so sad, but so true and it's an image christians desperately need to shed. I hope I never come across that way
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Old 02-15-2007, 01:36 PM   #68
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Default Re: Snickers commercial controversy

sherb: [quote=author]quoted message[/quote]

Also:

Quote:
ckj, the idea of the Christian faith is not just to have faith in God that he will forgive us when it's all over but to actively try not to sin, his mercy is a gift when we do sin, not an excuse to sin.
Thanks for saying what I said/wanted to say, but in a succinct and clear manner. =) I was having a really hard time wording things...

More to come when I have more time...

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Old 02-15-2007, 03:58 PM   #69
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sherb is an idiot for not realising how to do this ages ago
ahh it all makes sense now, thankyou
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:03 PM   #70
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"Wickedness was never happiness"

I guess if you really want to know if homosexuality is wicked then you can think about if being attracted to the same gender truly makes you happy. Keep in mind though, there is a big difference between temporary happiness (Pleasure) and true undiminished happiness (i.e. the love of Christ and the Holy Ghost when you do a bit of service that makes someone else truly grateful). I'm pretty sure that in doing this you will find that it really is wicked and if not then you are probably fully able to decipher the difference between happiness and pleasure yet. If you know something is wrong and you sin, you will feel guilty 100% of the time. Eh... but who's going to care what i say anymore anyway.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:07 AM   #71
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"Wickedness was never happiness"

I guess if you really want to know if homosexuality is wicked then you can think about if being attracted to the same gender truly makes you happy. Keep in mind though, there is a big difference between temporary happiness (Pleasure) and true undiminished happiness (i.e. the love of Christ and the Holy Ghost when you do a bit of service that makes someone else truly grateful). I'm pretty sure that in doing this you will find that it really is wicked and if not then you are probably fully able to decipher the difference between happiness and pleasure yet. If you know something is wrong and you sin, you will feel guilty 100% of the time. Eh... but who's going to care what i say anymore anyway.
slakjslfj Ok, I HAD to respond to this one, I know I said I wouldn't, but this is great. First of all, if no one cares it's because you're so biased it's not even funny. Your opinions are based on faith and nothing more.

Second of all. I LOVE being attracted to men. I couldn't imagine how boring it would be to be straight. I have so many more people to go "wow, they're hott." and it's just overall fun! I have some of the best friends in the world because the whole "gay" thing weeded out who my real ones are. After coming to like myself despite the fact that I'm gay made it easier to accept the other qualities of me that might not have been politically correct, and so I have more self-esteem overall.

Unless you're gay. Don't say anything about it. If you want to come out of the closet now, go for it, because you just said a lot of things that you can't know unless you're gay.

At the beginning of this convo no one cared what faith you believed in, but since you preach it as fact, no one wants to listen anymore! Who wants to hear that they're wrong and evil for a personality trait they can't help? Who wants to hear that they're going to hell for not believing what you believe? Start having an open mind. Start trying to see other people's point of view. Either that...or shutup

EDIT: This is the Critical Thinking area. Not the "Who can preach their religion most" area.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:03 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Wlfwnd91 View Post

Unless you're gay. Don't say anything about it. If you want to come out of the closet now, go for it, because you just said a lot of things that you can't know unless you're gay.

At the beginning of this convo no one cared what faith you believed in, but since you preach it as fact, no one wants to listen anymore! Who wants to hear that they're wrong and evil for a personality trait they can't help? Who wants to hear that they're going to hell for not believing what you believe? Start having an open mind. Start trying to see other people's point of view. Either that...or shutup

EDIT: This is the Critical Thinking area. Not the "Who can preach their religion most" area.
First of all I have been fighting this fight for a long time, just not with so much... vigor i guess you could say. I have heard the other side from pretty much every perspective i see possible and i still think they are full of it.
Second of all, i never said anyone was going to hell for being gay. I merely suggested it was a sin and that it has been previously been refered to as an abomination. Sure, i see the other side, but as far as im concerned having had this conversation several times, you are sinning and as the rest of the world would have you believe its alright so you press on. Of course this is true with pretty much any other sin, and this is not to say that i too am not sinning, i just dont think its alright. Anyone who says that they cant help it obviously hasnt tried long enough. Now im not saying that you can make yourself straight, i am saying that i know of people who have given up the idea that it is ok and have, simply put, stopped acting on their tendencies.
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:52 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wlfwnd91
At the beginning of this convo no one cared what faith you believed in, but since you preach it as fact, no one wants to listen anymore! Who wants to hear that they're wrong and evil for a personality trait they can't help? Who wants to hear that they're going to hell for not believing what you believe? Start having an open mind. Start trying to see other people's point of view. Either that...or shutup
He's got every right to believe what he wants, and you've no right to not hear it. If you don't like it, don't come here, but you don't get to tell people what they can and can't say in here.

Start having an open mind? Haha, think about things before you say them, k? On top of that, he's shown several times that he's tried to see this from your point of view and simply just does not agree with it. How about you "have an open mind" and accept what he believes, huh? See how easy that was to turn around on you?

Man, I hate that phrase...

Quote:
EDIT: This is the Critical Thinking area. Not the "Who can preach their religion most" area.
This is the Critical Thinking area, not the, "BLAHBLAHBLAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU" area. slip's done nothing wrong here.

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Old 02-17-2007, 06:25 PM   #74
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I don't think that had anything to do with homosexuality at all. The whole point was they were noth eating the snickers, accidentally kissed, then they wanted to do something manly. That proves they weren't trying to kiss and people who are offended by the commercial have a problem.
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Old 02-18-2007, 02:49 PM   #75
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He's got every right to believe what he wants, and you've no right to not hear it. If you don't like it, don't come here, but you don't get to tell people what they can and can't say in here.

Start having an open mind? Haha, think about things before you say them, k? On top of that, he's shown several times that he's tried to see this from your point of view and simply just does not agree with it. How about you "have an open mind" and accept what he believes, huh? See how easy that was to turn around on you?

Man, I hate that phrase...



This is the Critical Thinking area, not the, "BLAHBLAHBLAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU" area. slip's done nothing wrong here.

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Guido, please show me a place where he's shown an open mind, and I'll consider what you said. I have not seen it once. People have tried to get him to see other points of view, and I haven't seen him respect any of it.

"He has every right to believe what he wants" Well no ****, Guido, when did I ever say that he doesn't? I've said so many times that I don't care what he believes, and I've even DEFENDED him, before. He made some ****ing statements that were stupid, so I started to debate it, and you're telling me that I'm being an idiot in it? It's fine to think that wickedness doesn't = happiness, but he also doesn't have the right to decide what's wicked. Which is what he did in saying that gays can't be happy.
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Old 02-18-2007, 02:58 PM   #76
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Default Re: Snickers commercial controversy

I am also a homosexual and I actually do see where I was wrong in my arguments.

Quote:
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ckj, the idea of the Christian faith is not just to have faith in God that he will forgive us when it's all over but to actively try not to sin, his mercy is a gift when we do sin, not an excuse to sin.
That clears a lot up for me.. at least in the way that otherse were viewing me I guess you could say. Yes, it is good to have an open mind but I don't think it is very... fair that homosexuals are expected to just "take it" and accept the views of other people. I'm not talking about here in a forum on the Internet, I'm saying in general. People are so pushy an d so damn rude about it that I guess I jump to conclusions and label it ignorance, which isn't 100% true. That's why I'M so jumpy with the topic. I always had to be defensive because of the things that were sorta "coming my way." It's just... my defense system?

Ehh that doesn't make very much sense but I think you get the idea. Thing is, I don't think anybody can understand the oppression that homosexuals go through, and I dont' think anyone should go through that. But I also don't think that homosexuals should use that as an excuse, especially in an argument like Wlfwnd did. I'm just going to think about it some more and see what everyone else has to say before I make my final decision on what my outlook is on the institution, and even myself.
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Old 02-18-2007, 03:14 PM   #77
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Guido, please show me a place where he's shown an open mind, and I'll consider what you said. I have not seen it once. People have tried to get him to see other points of view, and I haven't seen him respect any of it.
First of all, define "having an open mind". Go ahead.
Next, define "respecting other people's ideas".
Then, with all that clear, I can answer your question.

"Having an open mind" is one of those platitudes that somehow got elevated to the level of universal altruism in this country so much that nobody knows what it really means, but they still throw it out there because it sounds good and not doing so would be bad. It's much like "That's racist!" whenever the word "black" is mentioned or something like that.

I hold that there's nothing bad about having a closed mind, and nothing necessarily good about having an open mind.

First, though, we need to define terms, here.

Quote:
"He has every right to believe what he wants" Well no ****, Guido, when did I ever say that he doesn't?
You didn't. The important part of that sentence of mine was everything that followed what you just quoted.

Quote:
you're telling me that I'm being an idiot in it?
Your turn. When did I say that?

Quote:
he also doesn't have the right to decide what's wicked.
Why are you looking at a stranger on an internet forum to absolutely define relative principles for you?

He's got EVERY right to decide what's wicked to him.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com
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She has an asshole, in other pics you can see a diaper taped to her dead twin's back.
Sentences I thought I never would have to type.
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:00 AM   #78
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Default Re: Snickers commercial controversy

I was in a pissy mood when I read your response to what I've said throughout this thread, hence the swears, cause if you've noticed I've never sworn on this board before. I can't justify anything I've said, and I know it was all stupid. Bad moods can turn anyone into an ignorant douche.
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