Old 01-14-2007, 12:18 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Kekiz View Post
There is still no way to know something like that. Its just an assumption. It could be twice that.
Did you read my statement?

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the escape velocity of a black hole is at least the speed of light
If that is false, then the escape velocity must be less than the speed of light, so technically light cannot escape a black hole, yet it can't escape it. Contradiction. Therefore, the escape velocity of a black hole is at least the speed of light.
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:24 PM   #82
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Default Re: Turning back time

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I hear scientists are good at making up numbers. Im not atempting to disprove black holes cause im pretty sure they are real. But people just make that kind of **** up.
Sure its going to be something ridiculously high but there is no way to know the escape velocity of something that is a theory.
Look up the definition of a theory.

It is fairly simple to figure out the escape velocity of a black hole, actually. No light can escape beyond a certain point of the black hole (which is why we can't see them. They must be detected using other methods). This is arbitrarily called the event horizon, and since no light passes beyond this point the escape velocity at this point is the speed of light.


And no, the escape velocity at the event horizon is not twice that. It could be any number of times that beyond the event horizon, but at the event horizon it is c. I am not going to get into why this is exactly, but if you think about it logically for a minute or two you can probably figure it out, since it's pretty basic stuff. Remember, a black hole is just a ridiculously strong gravitational field.
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Old 01-14-2007, 05:23 PM   #83
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And no, the escape velocity at the event horizon is not twice that.
Good job completley missing what i said. What is with you reach and ranting on about stuff that isnt even related to the point.

And how do you know its not twice the speed of light? You dont know anything. Stop acting like you do. Just because you say its not doesnt mean its true.
Yes it has to at "least" be the speed of light but that doesnt mean it is the speed of light.
Im sorry this concept is way over your head.

how are black holes even related to going back in time. If it did take you somewhere it would just be somewhere else in space, not somewhere else in time.

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Old 01-14-2007, 06:30 PM   #84
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Default Re: Turning back time

A huge amount of time dilation occurs around black holes.

The event horizon by definition is the spot where the escape velocity is equal to that of the speed of light. It is not twice the speed of light because that would not fit the definition of an event horizon!!! The closer you get to the center of the black hole, the more velocity you would need to escape. It is like a gradient. For this reason there must be a spot in which the escape velocity equals the speed of light, the event horizon! Get over it kekiz, please. It is not over anyone's head as long as you actually think about what you are saying.

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The escape velocity at the event horizon of a black hole is 669,600,000 mph.
I hear scientists are good at making up numbers. Im not atempting to disprove black holes cause im pretty sure they are real. But people just make that kind of **** up.
Sure its going to be something ridiculously high but there is no way to know the escape velocity of something that is a theory.
That is not some random number, it is the speed of light, although it is rounded. The definition of the speed of light, c, is 670,616,629.384 MPH. And as Reach has said, look up the definition of a theory, please.

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Old 01-14-2007, 07:14 PM   #85
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You still totally miss the point that there is no way to know that. When you go to a black whole and measure the escape velocity yourself then come back and tell me. For now there is no way to measure that. You yourself need to get over it.

you still dont even know if black holes are real yet you know so much about them. Reminds me of religion.
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Old 01-14-2007, 08:32 PM   #86
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Since you refuse to look up the definition of theory, I will for you.

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In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory. Commonly, a large number of more specific hypotheses may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a general rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific applications of a theory.
Theories are not just "well... hmmm.. theres this empty space out there... i think its from alien technology hiding it!" Theories have a logical foundation and a way of experimentally testing them. Everything is a theory in a sense because nothing can be 100% proven. If an experiment disproves the theory, the theory will either be changed to fit the experimentation or be proven false. Have you ever wondered why its Pythagorean THEOREM? It is because it is impossible to test an infinite number of possible triangles. Thus there is always a chance, however small it may be, that one possibility will not work. So just because it is a theorem, you say it doesn't work, even though you have used it hundreds of times and the answer is always right?

Yes black holes are a theory. They explain, in a logical sense, the reason why some things are getting sucked into and why light is bending or even disappearing around objects that cannot be seen in space. Even if they do not exist, as you might like to believe, attributes of an imaginary one would still be able to be logically found. If it sucks in through gravitational force, the closer you are, the higher the gravitational force. Thus the amount of force needed to escape the gravitational pull would be relative to the distance from the center of the pull, forming a gradient. They cannot be seen, so light cannot escape them, but there is a point around the black where we do see light again. This spot where the light stops is the event horizon. And, then, at this point the escape velocity would be equal to that of the speed of light.

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Old 01-14-2007, 09:42 PM   #87
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by Kekiz View Post
Good job completley missing what i said. What is with you reach and ranting on about stuff that isnt even related to the point.
Because what you are saying is irrelevant and not true. We're not talking about philosophical nonsense in this thread, but cold hard scientific evidence and data.

And incase you havn't read your own posts, you bare not a shred of it other than irrelevancies and proving that you have not done any research on this topic whatsoever. I am not here to babysit you or give you a class on astrophysics and black holes. Why don't you go do some research into where this information is derived before tooting your horn about how noone is able to show that anything is true.

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You dont know anything. Stop acting like you do.
Remind me, why are you posting here? This IS critical thinking, incase you wern't sure.

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Just because you say its not doesnt mean its true.
Really, I didn't know that. However, none of that information is my ideas, but rather is taken from a bank of scientific information and things that have been studied.

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Yes it has to at "least" be the speed of light but that doesnt mean it is the speed of light.
Im sorry this concept is way over your head.
Apparently scientific method and doing a little research is quite over your head, as well. Here, I actually have evidence of this fact.

"you still dont even know if black holes are real yet you know so much about them. Reminds me of religion."

Here's a bunch of philosophical nonsense if I've ever seen any. Really, just like you don't know kenya is a place because you havn't been there? So i'm just going to ignore all evidence that shows that there are extreme gravitational fields in this universe. Heard of Stephen Hawking? He's famous for a reason.


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how are black holes even related to going back in time. If it did take you somewhere it would just be somewhere else in space, not somewhere else in time.

They're not, really. The thread has gone off topic. There are some purely hypothetical ideas about blackholes and time travel, but nothing scientific (not that time travel is really scientific to begin with).



I'm going to take one more stab at this.


Maybe I'll ask, are you familiar with calculus? Have you heard of the intermediate value theorem? I could actually produce a very nice proof using it.

The gravitational field intensity could be plotted by a function in time. Imagine this. Now then, I know that at some point, the field produces an EV less than light.

I also know that at some point, the field produces an EV more than light. From here, we can deduce since the function is continuous, there HAS TO EXIST A POINT somewhere between these two where it is EXACTLY the speed of light. It just cannot be denied. Doing so is just plain old ignoring common sense.

This is the Schwarzchild Radius, and there are equations to explain this. Then from here we can arbitrarily define the event horizon to where space is no longer visible.
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:33 PM   #88
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by Kekiz View Post
What is with you reach and ranting on about stuff that isnt even related to the point.

And how do you know its not twice the speed of light? You dont know anything. Stop acting like you do. Just because you say its not doesnt mean its true.
Wait a minute, would you like to tell me who it was who was ranting one more time kekiz?

There are a few reasons why people think blackholes relate to time travel. One of which is when someone hears about its gravitational force and thinks, "hey, maybe time cant escape it either" or "if its so strong maybe it can pull you into the past/futre" both of which are an idiots point of view.

I always though of black holes as what reach described in that there is a different gravitational pull on different parts on your body instead of it compressing you into a cube. I heard a concept once that sounds stupid but it was actually an interesting thought (even if it did have no scientific thought behind it). It said that (relating to the living in a black hole idea, and also the thought of a black hole compressing objects) a black hole could possibly compress massive amounts of matter into the tiny sphere which then exploded and created the big bang which expanded the universe inside of the black hole itself. Although it can be counted as an illconceived though it is the first idea i have heard explaining how that sphere got there to begin with. Of course you could just say that with the properties of black holes that we know of now say that that kind of expansion would be very much improbable (especially because it would be extremely hard to have a center point of gravity inside a rapidly changing part of space that has a gravitational force greater than any others found).

One other thing related to time, if it ever was possible to go into the past dont you think the things you would have changed would not have happened to begin with merely because you would have stopped yourself or that event? It is becoming more and more than apparent to me that the only thing close to an idea of time travel would be to move a group of atoms so fast that time would SEEM to be going slower around them. Isnt that part of the theory of relativity anyway?
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:34 PM   #89
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Its funny how much time you spend writing nonsense. You have no evidence for anything and just make up everything and say there is evidence.

Its like when people say there is evidence of god and then never show any and just use that as their arguement. At any rate you still missed what i said so good game reach. Quit wasting your time trying to prove something that you cant get evidence for. Sure there has to be a point somewhere on a black hole thats the speed of light but you dont know where and if it goes beyond that.

The only information you have to go on is that its strong enough to pull in light. That doesnt mean anything.

Going on your style of reasoning i heard there was evidence that blackholes arnt holes and are just extremley dense matter that has a gravitational feild thats extremley powerful. Sure that might be true but what evidence. There is no evidence. I just made that up.
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:50 PM   #90
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Its funny how much time you spend writing nonsense. You have no evidence for anything and just make up everything and say there is evidence.

Its like when people say there is evidence of god and then never show any and just use that as their arguement. At any rate you still missed what i said so good game reach. Quit wasting your time trying to prove something that you cant get evidence for. Sure there has to be a point somewhere on a black hole thats the speed of light but you dont know where and if it goes beyond that.

The only information you have to go on is that its strong enough to pull in light. That doesnt mean anything.

Going on your style of reasoning i heard there was evidence that blackholes arnt holes and are just extremley dense matter that has a gravitational feild thats extremley powerful. Sure that might be true but what evidence. There is no evidence. I just made that up.
If you are going to go off of the arguement that we cant PROVE any of it for sure than i am sorry to say that you will be completely and utterly annihilated by your own arguement.

Incase you were wondering, the little theory i posted was just from one of the friends i have deep conversations with and like i said it has ABSOLUTELY no sort of reasoning to support it.

Also, yes you could come up with something off the top of your head and call it good but eventually you will be proven wrong unless it is on a topic in which you cant be proven wrong. However this is not the case because whether or not you are willing to accept the evidence given doesnt matter because ignorant people are still proven wrong even if they dont think so.

One last thing, whats that about writing about nonesence? I believe that you are the one who trying to prove people wrong with your own reasonings and not by any sort of proof. Rather, the other people have given ideas that have actually been known to produce even the slightest amounts of evidence in its case as opposed to your unsupported thoughts on the subject.
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Old 01-15-2007, 09:13 AM   #91
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by Kekiz View Post
Its funny how much time you spend writing nonsense. You have no evidence for anything and just make up everything and say there is evidence.

Its like when people say there is evidence of god and then never show any and just use that as their arguement. At any rate you still missed what i said so good game reach. Quit wasting your time trying to prove something that you cant get evidence for. Sure there has to be a point somewhere on a black hole thats the speed of light but you dont know where and if it goes beyond that.

The only information you have to go on is that its strong enough to pull in light. That doesnt mean anything.

Going on your style of reasoning i heard there was evidence that blackholes arnt holes and are just extremley dense matter that has a gravitational feild thats extremley powerful. Sure that might be true but what evidence. There is no evidence. I just made that up.
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There is still no way to know something like that. Its just an assumption. It could be twice that. (Written by Kekiz)
In fact, you brought this upon yourself. You have been writing useless crap about claiming that the escape velocity of a black hole could be twice that, in fact where it could be. Let's take the IVT (Intermediate Value Theorem) and Newton's law of universal gravitation.

We know for a fact that light cannot escape a black hole at a certain point. Let's call the distance from the black hole to this locus of points x. Therefore, at a distance x, light cannot escape a black hole. Therefore, the escape velocity of a black hole is greater than the speed of light. Not equal to, since if it were, then light would stand still. Now, take distance x/2. At distance x/2, light cannot escape a black hole either, because it is inside the event horizon. Therefore, the escape velocity of a black hole is still greater than the speed of light. Now, according to Newton's law of universal gravitational, if we cut the distance between two points in half, we quadruple the force between them. (From here). Therefore, at a distance x/2 from the black hole, the escape velocity is at least 4 times the speed of light. Now, since light cannot escape a black hole at a distance x, it cannot escape light at a distance x-c (where 0 <= c <= x/2). This assumption falls logically from Newton's law of universal gravitation. Now, since light cannot escape the black hole at these distances, and according to Newton's law of universal gravitation, the escape velocity of a black hole as you approach the black hole is increasing (therefore, it is continuous). Therefore, according to the Intermediate Value Theorem, there is a distance k (between x and x/2) such that the escape velocity is twice that of the speed of light.

There is one flaw, this distance x yields an escape velocity twice that of the speed of light. Then, we double the distance x. If this still yields an escape velocity twice that of the speed of light, we continue doubling. If we are at the point where the escape velocity is always twice that of the speed of light, we have a contradiction (we wouldn't exist), therefore at some distance x from the black hole, the escape velocity must be equal to twice the speed of light.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:39 PM   #92
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Default Re: Turning back time

A. We know for SURE that black holes exist. How? Telescopes are so advanced that they can read radioactive signitures in the cosmos, and sometimes they find points in the cosmos where EVERYTHING (this includes light, particles, all forms of mass INCLUDING atoms) is being pulled to a point in the universe. When everything reaches that point it dissapears. Using a little common sense and some advanced mathmatical equations, scientists have determined for a FACT that black holes exist and their gravitaional force is so powerful that radiation traveling at the speed of light is pulled into it.

B. Scientists can measure the gravitational force, by determining the different speeds and masses of objects going towards a black hole. They have shown that even if we were able to go 930000 miles per second (which is impossible) which is five times the speed of light, we still would not be able to escape the gravitational pull of a black hole.
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Old 01-15-2007, 06:00 PM   #93
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B. Scientists can measure the gravitational force, by determining the different speeds and masses of objects going towards a black hole. They have shown that even if we were able to go 930000 miles per second (which is impossible) which is five times the speed of light, we still would not be able to escape the gravitational pull of a black hole.
Now I'm curious, but do you have a reference for this claim?
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Old 01-15-2007, 10:06 PM   #94
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Default Re: Turning back time

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_obsv.html
http://hubblesite.org/explore_astronomy/black_holes/
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast12jan_1.htm
http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feat...oct/blackhole/

These are urls that prove black holes exist. That fact was seen on the nasa channel. I wish I could quote the person, but I dont remember his name.

Edit: The nasa channel has stated that fact, and if you watch the discovery channel they have had an episode that stated that fact.
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Old 01-16-2007, 03:06 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by 8Shade8 View Post
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_obsv.html
http://hubblesite.org/explore_astronomy/black_holes/
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast12jan_1.htm
http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feat...oct/blackhole/

These are urls that prove black holes exist. That fact was seen on the nasa channel. I wish I could quote the person, but I dont remember his name.

Edit: The nasa channel has stated that fact, and if you watch the discovery channel they have had an episode that stated that fact.
I meant proof that the escape velocity of a black hole is at least five times the speed of light.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:58 PM   #96
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Default Re: Turning back time

Yeah, that fact was stated on the discovery channel a few weeks ago. The episode was about the ten ways that our planet may be destroyed. Number 8 was a black hole randomly making it's way into our solar system. Number 1 was gloabal warming. I will try and find the URL for the episode for you, it may be on the internet...
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:30 PM   #97
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All right. I've been thinking about... what if I had a sort of magic clock or something that I could turn back time with?

Would I dare to use it then... 'Cause I don't think you can "remember the future". I mean, if I turn back time, I wouldn't remember that I had done that. And then I would probably turn back time again, at the same time I did it last time. And then again... and again... And me, and everything else would be stuck in some kind of "time trap" where the same thing happens over and over.

Of course, noone would notice, cause noone would remember the future, but it's still kind of scary. What if you never could live your life fully :S And what if this actually is happening now, time turning back over and over. Maybe I've written this message... like 400 times by now? It doesn't hurt me, since I don't know but... what if?



Thecnichally you would remember that yo went back in time because, when you go back, you go back in world's time, and that's YOUR future. So if that's your future, after you travaled back in time you remember your past...











Here's a lil' time paradox:


The ball down the picture is going toward Port. 1, wich transports it in its own past, getting out of Port. 2, but if the ball that went back in the past hits the ball that was going to Port. 1 before it gets in it, it will deviate from its path and never enter Port. 1, but if it never enters Port. 1, it can't hit itself, so it will enter the Port. 1...


hmm..
well, maybe the ball coming from port 2 becomes erased from time the moment it interferes with its past self, but that wouldnt make sence because then the past ball WOULD go on to interfere with itself.
maybe since you are already breaking the laws of physics by going back in time in the 1st place, it would result in somthing that is as equally impossible, such as both occurances (the ball interefering with itself so that it never interefere with itself AND the ball going uninterfered into the portal) happens at the exact same time and 2 things exist in the same place
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:42 PM   #98
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also the only way to tell if your caught in a time trap or not is to live and see if you come across a magical clock and dare turn it back, if not, your living your life without time warping disrupting it
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Old 01-20-2007, 07:50 AM   #99
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Default Re: Turning back time
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Originally Posted by DJoel View Post
All right. I've been thinking about... what if I had a sort of magic clock or something that I could turn back time with?

Would I dare to use it then... 'Cause I don't think you can "remember the future". I mean, if I turn back time, I wouldn't remember that I had done that. And then I would probably turn back time again, at the same time I did it last time. And then again... and again... And me, and everything else would be stuck in some kind of "time trap" where the same thing happens over and over.

Of course, noone would notice, cause noone would remember the future, but it's still kind of scary. What if you never could live your life fully :S And what if this actually is happening now, time turning back over and over. Maybe I've written this message... like 400 times by now? It doesn't hurt me, since I don't know but... what if?

Thecnichally you would remember that yo went back in time because, when you go back, you go back in world's time, and that's YOUR future. So if that's your future, after you travaled back in time you remember your past...

Here's a lil' time paradox:

The ball down the picture is going toward Port. 1, wich transports it in its own past, getting out of Port. 2, but if the ball that went back in the past hits the ball that was going to Port. 1 before it gets in it, it will deviate from its path and never enter Port. 1, but if it never enters Port. 1, it can't hit itself, so it will enter the Port. 1...

hmm..
well, maybe the ball coming from port 2 becomes erased from time the moment it interferes with its past self, but that wouldnt make sence because then the past ball WOULD go on to interfere with itself.
maybe since you are already breaking the laws of physics by going back in time in the 1st place, it would result in somthing that is as equally impossible, such as both occurances (the ball interefering with itself so that it never interefere with itself AND the ball going uninterfered into the portal) happens at the exact same time and 2 things exist in the same place
First of all, are you assuming that there would be two of you if you turned back time? If there were, what would the new "you" look like? If there weren't, what would you know? Would everyone consciously know that time was being changed or would a separate universe be warped out with the timeframe that you warped to? Or would time be changed everywhere in the universe? Your assumption of time changing on a small scope doesn't look at the entire universe. What else would turning time do? You can't simply assume that everything would be "normal", that would be very bizarre.
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