[Wiosna]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I initially didn't answer that question of "shifting away from the identity of high-quality files" because I felt it came from a flawed premise to begin with. I think "well-synced" is true because it's more objective, but I don't agree with the judging system necessarily being a good assessment of "quality" -- certainly not one that picks out "high-quality" ones at least. High-quality files will pass the system, but not all files in the system are high-quality blah blah. Internal structural consistency is not a sufficient requirement for a file to be of high-quality. I don't blame judges for this either, of course (I was a judge myself), I think it's one of the easiest and least controversial ways of assessing a file, but there is this rift between how judges perceive files, how stepartists perceive files, and how players perceive files with that approach.

There's definitely some truth behind the FFR stepping community having a certain identity though -- the boundaries set by the FFR judge team has caused the stepping community on FFR to create files in specific directions, and I think it's most pronounced in the highest echelons of the game. It has by far the highest concentration of really technical hard files out of any rhythm game that I know, and I find that to be extremely fascinating. There are also other things like players having quite different file palettes than other communities, but I don't have too many things concrete about it. I've always wanted to do some ethnographic analysis on how specific charting trends shape rhythm game communities, though, so my thoughts on this will change over time.

I can contrast this to osu!mania, where off-the-walls technical (think even T11) files are just so much more rare. I think there are multiple reasons for this beyond "dumps aren't allowed in the official part of our games" (which isn't even true anymore), but I do believe that that's a small contributor. So I do think that something on FFR would be lost somewhat with FFR accepting dumpy (not dumps) files, I just don't think that "high-quality" should be a descriptor for it. Technical slant maybe, and by then, the question of whether that identity should change becomes much easier to contend with. I know that you're looking for a positive argument towards allowing dumps/dumpy elements, but I'm just explaining my reasons for giving a "why not" reason at the start.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

I think this is just rude tbh. osu!mania's charting community is imo pretty dire for multiple reasons and I don't think FFR is anywhere near that point. I won't say that osu!mania is necessarily filled with derivative work, but I think the osu!mania scene is trying to find its own identity and the game being a safe haven for dumps is misguided. I also think that FFR, even when you look strictly at the dumps that people in this community have made, are much closer to tech files with ghost note elements, so think closer to Rainshower than... the archetypal dump file that you can think of, really.

I see the dump batch as more of an attempt at inclusivity. Speaking from personal experience as someone who is relatively "new" to the FFR stepping scene (I mostly stepped for osu!mania and Etterna before this), I definitely felt as if a good portion of my style wasn't going to be accepted because of how much I use ghost notes as a form of layering -- whether it would be a Sharpnel-esque JS dump or bursts to bass wobbles (which have pronounced peaks, but there's still only one attack per wobble). I've butted heads with judges a few times over this, and it's piled on by the fact that judges are inconsistent in judging these files. It's immensely frustrating.

I would get an 8.5/10 from one judge, but I could get a 5-5.5/10 from a different judge for a very similar file -- with the latter judge basically saying that they generally don't agree with the approach at hand. You can argue that this is a judge issue more than anything, but the fact that my files have to go through more hoops than the average file is, admittedly, emotionally draining for me, and I would've liked a much less ambiguous judgment (either yes or no, though "yes" would be better) rather than thinking about whether it would be worth it to submit a file like that that I'm happy with and feel that players would enjoy. Being told unambiguously that Rainshower was more or less greenlighted by multiple judges was relieving to me, and I wouldn't want ambiguity to be an issue that more contemporary stepartists will face for picking up a relatively new trend in stepping.

And this isn't really talking about players' views on the matter: Many players do enjoy the output that I've made a lot across every community that I've posted those files in (Ideal Ratio, Rainshower, Writing on the Walls, even some of the Sharpnel files). And they don't really consider these files to be "dumps" proper these days because the files are so commonplace outside of FFR. And with the bulk of FFR players coming from other rhythm game communities these days, I think it makes more sense to have its judging philosophy (and in turn, the output that represent the game) partially align with most communities at hand. osu!mania and Etterna still have different judging criteria for dumps across stepartists and judges (no judges on EO obviously but they "exist" in o!m).

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.

I (think I) know what you're trying to say here with dump files not being on sync by definition -- but I think it's presumptuous to say that just because a dump file isn't synced in the conventional sense (notes placed to attacks and only attacks) doesn't mean that it should be a file in-game. Most dumps have notes to peaks rather than strictly attacks, which again, does have a notably different feeling of gameplay (a misuse of this can lead to a file being very loose and tenuous to play through) and is a bit dicier to judge than more literal files, but I find it hard-pressed to think about whether that's necessarily a thing that should exclude a style from the game -- even ones that were executed very well. It seems like a trade-off thing that judges have to consider, which I think is manageable, though I think that there will be pitfalls in judging here and there all the same that judges will face. In that sense, I definitely see the lack of faith in maintaining judge standards, because it does require additional criteria for assessment.

I would love to talk to you about dumps and certain reservations with it further (I'm Alice in the Discord server, the idiot with the salmon-coloured hair anime girl avatar) because, admittedly, I think the gap in philosophy to be intriguing and I ultimately want to see what exactly the rift is for certain stepartists. It's something that I've done before for other communities as well (I was one of the main proponents to get people to accept dumps for the ranked section in osu!mania, though I don't really like the direction that it's going on a personal level because of a poor assessment criteria), so maybe there's a productive discussion to be had at some point.