[richhhhhard]

Originally Posted by Reach

More specifically, that we perceive uncertainty *by necessity of the laws of the universe*, and we'll never be able to change this.

It doesn't show that the universe itself is not causally linked, no, however, Heisenberg uncertainty does prove there is uncertainty in the universe relative to any observer...look at what you just said. If you cannot measure two quantum properties with precision at the same time that means there is an unknown, or uncertain variable.

Really, my point is that you need to differentiate between uncertainty, which involves knowing, and the behavior of the universe as a whole.

It's key to understand why we observe Heisenberg uncertainty - the reason the effect occurs is because by measuring one variable, you change the other. That is, the effect of observing changes the outcome of the event, or in other words, *the effect of knowing* changes the outcome of the event.

And thus there will *always* be uncertainty, because in order to know and be certain, you have to change the outcome and be uncertain.


Anyway, I'm still not really disagreeing with you, rather, I'm expanding on your point that I felt was a bit simplistic. You could argue much more strongly that everything in the universe is causally connected rather than nothing is uncertain, because they're two different issues.

Good point, but can you really say there will always be uncertainty? That is to assume that we will always be limited by the constraints that we are today. Unless we develop cyborg brains though... I suppose I have no argument.

All I was trying to say is that because the observer perceives uncertainty, does not mean that the outcome is ever uncertain. As such I would say that the effect of knowing *does NOT* change the outcome of the event, because that assumes that another outcome could have occurred.In reality no other outcome could have been possible because even you measuring something and "changing" the outcome is something that could have been predicted.

I see what you are saying though, because I am talking more about that is how the universe will behave, but doesn't that mean it should be *possible* for us to understand it? And thus *possible*, to a degree, to be certain about what is to come? For the present I know that is a ridiculous goal, even understanding how one blade of grass will develop requires enormous amounts of information, but knowledge grows exponentially, so given enough time, who knows?