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-   -   Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=98737)

Djr Rap dancer 12-20-2008 04:47 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qqwref (Post 2926903)
But if you don't think a human has a spirit then it does not have to go anywhere. Some people believe that the mind and personality of a dead person is somehow encoded in the brain, so that the 'spirit' decomposes just like the rest of the body.

It's yours idea.
We can have all a idea.
I don't disappoint you.

devonin 12-20-2008 11:25 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Djr, you need to work on your communication skills. The is an English forum, and one in which effective and clear communication of ideas is incredibly important.

Djr Rap dancer 12-20-2008 11:46 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
You know that I do my possible.
But I coming more a more good I think.
Sorry.
I can just shut up to.
Just let me know.

kmay 12-20-2008 11:54 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
i like where djr is going, i wish he had better english. I am catholic, i believe in god, but i also question whether we actually exist there is no proof we actually exist, nothing can ever prove we exist. What if our whole life was a dream, a really detailed dream. Then everytime wee fall asleep the person who is dreaming us wakes up. Nothing really exists which is why some things just don't seem to make sense. If someone can prove that I am real i would love to see it.

dore 12-21-2008 12:08 AM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
You are real because you are conscious. Because you can see, think, and feel, you are real. It doesn't matter if you are someone's dream or not because regardless, you are conscious.

kmay 12-21-2008 12:15 AM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
i don't know about you, but in my dreams people are able to move and talk to me. There really is no way to prove life. Dreams can seem as real as "life", doesn't mean i can live under water or whatever happened in my dream. What if nothing really ever happened and this is "heaven". just because we can see, think, and feel doesn't give life. Only in this "world" it does. Think about it. What could happen when we die, its like we never existed, if we really ever did. I see no proof in life, or god. I live "life" and i have faith in god. Nothing is real nothing is fake. You can never prove something really exists

devonin 12-21-2008 12:49 AM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

You are real because you are conscious. Because you can see, think, and feel, you are real. It doesn't matter if you are someone's dream or not because regardless, you are conscious.
You can't actually say that about someone else. You can only say that about yourself, but since you are not anybody else, nobody else should necessarily feel obliged to believe you.

No individual has any truly complete basis for concluding anything other than solipsism.

dore 12-21-2008 01:02 AM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Yeah that's kinda what meant. I was more trying to say was that whether or not we are are "real" it doesn't matter because this is the only form of consciousness we can be guaranteed so for all intents and purposes, from our collective points of view, we are real. Whether or not you all are "real" or figments of my (or others') imagination is irrelevant, from my perspective.

Afrobean 12-21-2008 06:38 AM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qqwref (Post 2926903)
The site he linked to makes a distinction between hearsay and an eyewitness account, which is a pretty important one: an eyewitness account comes from someone who's actually seen something, whereas a hearsay account comes from someone who was told about it by someone else. So, if someone says they have been to New York, it's an eyewitness account - if you trust the person not to lie to you, you will believe New York exists. According to the website, none of the texts from the period which mention Jesus were written by people who actually saw him in action. The site claims that even the Gospels were written by people who not only never saw Jesus, but don't even know anyone who saw Jesus! When the author has that much remove from the person he's writing about, the work just isn't evidence anymore - even if the author always tells what he thinks is the truth, anyone down the line could have fabricated parts of the story (or all of it!).

Many parts of the New Testament are said to have been written by some of Jesus's disciples. What makes this "hearsay" rather than "eyewitness"?

And what of the other claimed official records that devonin has mentioned and that I myself have heard of before? I know that many elements of his story are unbelievable, but is it that hard to believe that a man named Jesus, despite being the son of a carpenter, traveled the countryside preaching a new take on moral ideals?

Quote:

nothing can ever prove we exist
Never heard the phrase "cogito ergo sum"?

"I think therefore I am."

Your subjective reality is defined by your own existence. Existence is defined by your subjective perspective. "To exist" is what your own self is. Actually, I'm not very good at describing this. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

Quote:

Originally Posted by dore (Post 2927331)
You are real because you are conscious. Because you can see, think, and feel, you are real. It doesn't matter if you are someone's dream or not because regardless, you are conscious.

Moreover, if everything was a "dream", that would be a foundational component of reality. If Reality is a Dream, that doesn't mean that the real of this "dream" is no longer real, because reality itself would be the dream.

ps this thread is not about questioning the "realness" of reality. This thread is for questioning why religion is not held to the reasonable standard that science is. Get back to the pointing out how illogical religion is plz

kmay 12-21-2008 08:13 AM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean (Post 2927565)


Never heard the phrase "cogito ess"?

And what of the other claimed official records that devonin has mentioned and that I myself have heard of before? I know that many elements of his ergo sum"?

"I think therefore I am."

Your subjective reality is defined by your own existence. Existence is defined by your subjective perspective. "To exist" is what your own self is. Actually, I'm not very good at describing this. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

what if this statement was only made to make us believe we are real.

Djr Rap dancer 12-21-2008 11:22 AM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Since peoples change in mentalities, I mean think to upgrade ( object,technologies,ect... just to see what the real life is. And now that scientific can prove a lot of things, did you see that the world dont going well.
I mean: examples : car.
Car help us to go any were that we what to go ( always to see something els )
But this positive things bring 1 problems. (pollution)
Earth is degrading days after days just by humans.
Animal are so stupid that in a sense , are very intelligent.
Take the examples of dore : telling that we exist caus we are at moment present.
Does it's mean that ants dont exist in a sense.
No one can prove it.
So its not because you cant : see, touch, ear ...ect that they dont exist.
All exist : same for dream
But in a other world , like the 6th sense.
So why not spirit? can they have a 6e sense?
No one know really.

devonin 12-21-2008 12:17 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

Many parts of the New Testament are said to have been written by some of Jesus's disciples. What makes this "hearsay" rather than "eyewitness"?
I was actually thinking of posting pretty much this last night.

The reason there is such a delay between the events and their being written down is that the apostles believed when Christ died, that his promised second coming would be like "Any time now" and certainly within their own lifetimes. As a result, nobody felt it relevant to record anything, because they only had a couple years to go.

Interestingly, the period between the death of Christ and the starting of the formal recordings of doctrine is a period in which the church was very egalitarian, and several of the important women to the church held positions of pretty high significance.

But once 30, 40 years go by, and everyone who was actually -there- when Jesus was saying and doing things start to realise "You know...maybe the second coming -isn't- right around the corner...we need to record this stuff for our descendants." that they took the time to record their accounts.

Afrobean 12-21-2008 12:55 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kmay (Post 2927574)
what if this statement was only made to make us believe we are real.

It's not a statement that can be made up. It is a philosophical argument that makes logical sense. If you're conscious enough to question reality, then your mind (that is, the intangible part) is "real". If your self didn't exist, you wouldn't be consciously aware to question whether it existed.

The idea says nothing about the "reality" of other things, or even the "realness" of the world around us, but only of the intangible existence of your self's mind.

kmay 12-21-2008 01:05 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
nothing can prove consciousness, like i said we could be someones dream which means we wouldn't exist in their world and they wouldn't exist in our world. Then the dreams that they have are so in depth that we could have full separate lives. With other things going on around us to try and convince us that we are in fact real when we are not.

Afrobean 12-21-2008 01:10 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kmay (Post 2927720)
nothing can prove consciousness, like i said we could be someones dream which means we wouldn't exist in their world and they wouldn't exist in our world. Then the dreams that they have are so in depth that we could have full separate lives. With other things going on around us to try and convince us that we are in fact real when we are not.

You just don't understand.

If you're thinking, your MIND is real. It doesn't matter if REALITY IS DEFINED AS BEING A DREAM, because YOUR COGNITIVE AWARENESS MEANS THAT YOUR MIND IS REAL.

Not your BRAIN. The ABSTRACT MIND.

If your thoughts were not real, YOU WOULD NOT BE THINKING THEM.

devonin 12-21-2008 03:10 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
You have no way to know that kmay is any more real than I am or any other claimed consciousness to which you don't have introspective access. *grin*

Djr Rap dancer 12-21-2008 04:17 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean (Post 2927723)
You just don't understand.

If you're thinking, your MIND is real. It doesn't matter if REALITY IS DEFINED AS BEING A DREAM, because YOUR COGNITIVE AWARENESS MEANS THAT YOUR MIND IS REAL.

Not your BRAIN. The ABSTRACT MIND.

If your thoughts were not real, YOU WOULD NOT BE THINKING THEM.

Can you prove that its the principal for a life?
Do you think cat are bored?
They don't even talk.
They don't even think like a human.
What is the life for them?
Consciousness is not a life, is a way to survive.

devonin 12-21-2008 04:21 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Your comment has nothing to do with what Afrobean said.

He is referring to the human question of personal consciousness, and the basic definition of cogito ergo sum. If the cat were capable of comprehending a maxim like "I think, therefore I am" then for the cat, it's own consciousness would be proven to it.

Djr Rap dancer 12-21-2008 04:38 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Yes they do, but its always to survive.
Not to live take power or whatever.
They don't give a ****.
Thats why religion gating away...

devonin 12-21-2008 05:04 PM

Re: Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?
 
Even when I can decode what words you're trying to say, it doesn't really make sense to the discussion at hand.


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