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-   -   The Death Penalty (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=91213)

devonin 04-17-2008 01:41 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Negative reinforcement works on dogs too, but it's still a) less effective than positive reinforcement and b) illegal cruelty.

In fact, what is likely to happen in that case, when you just release the person is that they are going to go after the people responsible for their horrible torture to get revenge. You don't come away from 5 years of horrible torture going "Well, I guess I won't do -that- again, maybe I should go find a nice job" You come away from that swearing revenge and substantially more prone to violence. Hell, you've pretty much -created- the mental insanity you've described as an exception.

Grandiagod 04-17-2008 04:12 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
I'd imagine extreme prolonged torture would work less as a deterrent and more as a way to create a mentally instable individual.

tsugomaru 04-19-2008 01:36 AM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
It probably would considering that for people who do murder, they do not think of the consequences. People who commit murder for several reasons, for those who commit murder for money, they usually completely believe that they can get away with it. People who commit murder for passion will not be stopped because they strongly believe that what they are doing is right. People who commit murder based on a whim do not think of their punishments as they commit murder. Of course there are the people who kill others on accident, there is really no way to avoid that type of killing because it really isn't intentional.

~Tsugomaru

rzr 04-20-2008 12:17 AM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2123759)
Negative reinforcement works on dogs too, but it's still a) less effective than positive reinforcement and b) illegal cruelty.

In fact, what is likely to happen in that case, when you just release the person is that they are going to go after the people responsible for their horrible torture to get revenge. You don't come away from 5 years of horrible torture going "Well, I guess I won't do -that- again, maybe I should go find a nice job" You come away from that swearing revenge and substantially more prone to violence. Hell, you've pretty much -created- the mental insanity you've described as an exception.

This is pathetic. Four posts on this thread since I've last been on.

Devonin, they don't walk away saying "I'll never do that again" even know. Hence the term 'repeat offender'. It does seem more likely that they would refrain from repeating the actions after extreme torture. I mean, duh, they're going to want revenge. I would too. I would swear it too. But I sure as hell would never commit the same crime again.

devonin 04-20-2008 03:57 AM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Quote:

I mean, duh, they're going to want revenge. I would too. I would swear it too. But I sure as hell would never commit the same crime again.
Huzzah, we've replaced say...someone's willingness to kill a person who was ragging on them, and publically provoking them with someone's willingness to murder your entire family to get revenge for what you did to them. This seems like not a good trade off.

rzr 04-20-2008 11:34 AM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Seems like someone took my post out of context ;)

devonin 04-20-2008 01:52 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Well, assuming I grant that you're correct (which I dont) and the horrible torture was enough to make someone not do the same crime again, you pretty much explicitly stated "Instead they'll do something worse" which seems to indicate that it's a bad plan.

The important thing to realise is that I'm pretty sure almost anybody will agree that any punishment that doesn't include being killed is better than a punishment where you are killed, and yet places with the death penalty have no lower a rate of crimes for which the penalty can be death than anywhere else.

If "If you do this we'll -kill- you" isn't a deterrant, why should "If you do this, we'll hurt you really badly" going to be more of one?

tsugomaru 04-20-2008 04:07 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Deterrents do not work for the people who do commit murder. Sure, it prevents people from murdering left and right, but it won't actually stop the person who's committing murder when they actually commit murder.

~Tsugomaru

rzr 04-20-2008 08:37 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
On the contrary. I'm saying they will no longer commit large scale crimes. They would perhaps litter, steal a pack of gum, or rip the tag off their mattress. But a tortured criminal will not murder, rape, rob, etc again.

devonin 04-20-2008 08:57 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Quote:

But a tortured criminal will not murder, rape, rob, etc again.
Prove it.

heyitsmee 04-20-2008 09:09 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
we dont have it over here
the only Death Penalty was that of Adolf Otto Eichmann

xinpig 04-21-2008 10:18 AM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Serial killers are already unstable torturing them in hopes that it will "fix" them will not even change them. on the contrary it would only make them more prone to attacking again but doing that in the name of revenge.

rzr 04-21-2008 10:34 AM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Give me someone to kill, opportunity, and the guarantee I won't get caught. Do the torture. I'll be glad to prove it ;)
Just one thing first. I pick the person :p

xinpig 04-21-2008 11:27 AM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
What the... but no seriously the method of killing aside i think that we should have the death penalty in some form. people who commit violent crimes need to be punished for their evil deeds no matter how the act was committed even if it be by accident.

rzr 04-21-2008 12:13 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
That's true but the accident thing... I mean, we do have no way to prove if it was or wasn't an accident.

devonin 04-21-2008 02:12 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Quote:

guarantee I won't get caught. Do the torture.
These two conditions are mutually exclusive.

rzr 04-21-2008 04:31 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
I feel like making a hypothetical "
dee-dee-dee" sound to you :p but where are we going with this?

Zythus 04-21-2008 04:43 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Death Penalty is quite absolute. Black and white, alive and dead.

"Some Form" does not imply in any way.

devonin 04-21-2008 04:50 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rzr (Post 2129908)
I feel like making a hypothetical "
dee-dee-dee" sound to you :p but where are we going with this?

You made a claim.

I asked you to support your claim with evidence.

You said you could show me proof provided we put you in a logically impossible situation.

I'm assuming therefore that you actually have no such evidence, and we can carry on with other aspects of the discussion.

Corbin Wells 04-21-2008 06:22 PM

Re: The Death Penalty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xinpig (Post 2129558)
people who commit violent crimes need to be punished for their evil deeds no matter how the act was committed even if it be by accident.


So if A is enraged because of B proviking A, and A gets into a fight with B, ends up killing B, but does so as an accident, A should be put to death? Shouldn't these types of cases be worthy of lesser punishments such as 15 years or more in prison with provided anger management therapy? Now we are not talking in cases that cannot be proven accidental or not, but rather cases in which the person who killed the other, comes clean the same day or whenever(within a reasonable amount of time) to the proper authorities? Should A still be put to death despite it being crystal clear of it being an accident?


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