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War: Is it worth it?
Hey guys, I thought about posting a CT thread about this, but never got around to it.
Well, as the title states, my question is about the one and only, war. Dictionary.com defines war as "a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.". What I ask you people tonight is, is it worth it? In my point of view, there is NO point to war. Even if you defeat your enemy, even if they are weakened, in the end it all does nothing. After the war, the enemies will probably have a bigger grudge against you from the start. I also think that once war starts, it doesn't truly end until both sides are dead, or they realize their faults and try to make a negotiation. For example, most wars are ended because both sides do not want to lose any more people, or force themselves into poverty. Quoted from Wikipedia: The political and economic circumstances in the peace that follows war usually depends on the "facts on the ground". Where evenly matched adversaries decide that the conflict has resulted in a stalemate, they may cease hostilities to avoid further loss of life and property. They may decide to restore the antebellum territorial boundaries, redraw boundaries at the line of military control, or negotiate to keep or exchange captured territory. Negotiations between parties involved at the end of a war often result in a treaty, such as the Treaty of Versailles of 1919, which ended the First World War. I think that you should just not even begin war, for at the end, you just end off worse than when you started battling. So I ask you people, what is your take on this? Do you believe war is a worthwhile thing, that resolves issues? Or do you think it is meaningless, and that it just causes more trouble? Please respond. -Net :) |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
War is worth the peace it achieves? Well, no. No amount of violence will ever stop conflict. No amount of death will ever cease the voices of war-hawks. But will that change war from occuring? No. There is only one thing I can say to justify the existance and repetition of war:
si vis pacem, para beilum When you want peace, prepare for war. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
That depends. I think war can be necessary for what some might consider to be the right reasons. Wars and skirmishes have also shaped important parts of history that wouldn't exist otherwise.
For example, I learned recently in AP World History that many nations in the late 1700's and 1800's saw revolutions such as the American Revolution and French Revolution and saw how effective they were. As a result, many citizens that felt oppressed decide to rebel as well. Although many of the rebellions were unsuccessful, the nations' leaders began avoiding revolutions by being open to change in the citizens' favor. For those that are wondering, I'm pretty certain that the rebels atleast tried to reason with the leaders and get them to compromise. However, I don't think that you should automatically pull an uprising out of your pocket at the slightest provocation. For example, the American colonies were being treated unfairly for nearly two decades before the revolution. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
It's in human nature to be violent. That's just how we are, and it's how we have been.
I believe war is...a necessity. We need to fight because it's how were programed. If there was no fighting, this would be a pretty boring place. That is, for a species of our genetic makeup. To answer your question, yes, I do believe war is "worthwhile". It settles mankinds disputes. Naturally, fighting will cause more trouble. I guess thats the circle right there. In the example you posted, you quoted the Treaty of Versailles which ended WWI. If I remember correctly, the Treaty of Versailles required Germany to take full responsibility of the war, as well as half the military force and split up their country. But what did the Treaty of Versailles actually do? Most historians agree that the Treaty of Versailles is what caused WWII. Further support for my earlier explanation. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
There's actually a fairly large subsection of historians (I'm one of them) who feel that there was actually no world war I and II, just one longer war that had a negotiated and then violated ceasefire. There were no new "causes" for the second world war because the war never actually ended.
To the OP, conflict is inevitable as long as humans have needs and wants, and a desire to fulfill them. I don't believe that -war- is strictly necessary, but since it has long been such an easy method for the elect to get what they want (since face it, presidents and generals don't go into trenches) that there hasn't been nearly as dedicated a committment to diplomacy and peaceful resolution. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
At long last I agree with devonin. There was an armistice (hehe, the name of my band) between the periods of 'WWI' and 'WWII' but those are just names of larger conflicts.
About the treaty of Versailles: that was the stupidest document ever created in the history of modern countries. First off, the treaty required Germany to have a MAXIMUM of 100000 man army. As a country though, not individuals. By the time 'WWII' rolled around Adold Hitler had a 300000 man private army. The treaty did nothing except anger the Germans further. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Such a silly question. War is totally worth it. If you're the winner. Why the vast majority of wars in our history have been fought? For religion, resources, and rights. (Also: I love alliteration.) Back when religion was almost globally a sacred thing, it sure as hell felt like dying for it was a noble cause, especially if it meant strengthening your own people. But the fundamental bottom line? Power. The wars that are going on in Africa for example are all for power. Distribution of wealth, distribution of weapons, etc. Anyways, I hope that answers the question sufficiently.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
For us as nations, the debate for war is always a yes/no thing. I'll take it in a different direction.
Usually when a species gets overpopulated in an enviroment, many things happen. Take deer for instance. There are too many either starvation, sickness or predators chip away at said deer until a normal level is achieved and eventually the herd is thinned out for the habitat to support them. Humans in the other hand have no superior predators, we are the top and there is a LOT of us. Nobody is eating us, aliens aren't abducting us fast enough, the T-Virus hasn't been made yet, natural disasters aren't killing enough of us, we are feeding the starving, we are helping the sick and nothing is killing us to the point where the earth can support our species in an effecive way that synchronizes with our technological level to increase our longevity. What is left to wipe us out? War of course. We are territorial, we are selfish, we care only for ourselves and a few people and depending on what philosopher you believe, our hearts are evil (though the good/evil thing is up to debate too). We need war to keep us in check. A couple of bombs in China, a faster disease then AIDs in Africa and an underground mob rising in Japan would help out a whole bunch, Somebody has to create weapons, somebody has to make food. Our economies go up, people die, more money for less people. We are the least violent generation, we just have better ways of killing eachother. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
That is definitely not true. We have war to achieve peace. Disease is the only circumstance that could argue that point. It is not to keep us in check but to let us live our lives in a safe place.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
It is true if you have the population in check
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Not entirely correct. The need for war is not most likely driven by our animalistic instinct. The need for violence, death, and negativity may be. But war is a more consciously driven act.
The need for war [in most cases] is caused by a leader's need for territory, power, and/or enjoyment. The soldiers as individuals are not necessarily the people who sought out the war, it's the people sending them there. For example, take Russia (no offense to anyone). A very territorial and constantly expanding nation. Their leader? Vladamir Putin (spelling?). He wants to gain more territory and henceforth may use force (aka war) to gain said territory. The need for war is accepted in society, not moraly though. For safety and feelings of nationalism. Regardless of any ethnicity behind the motives, war will still happen. Everyone has their moment's when they get mad and make a mistake. The same thing happens to our leader's only they have more power therefore more damage gets done (aka war again). On another note, I'd like to suggest jonXia sticks around in here for a little while, his points are very thought out and I enjoy reading them. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Sorry sorry, Rzr I have to strongly disagree with a small thing. You may have carelessly added it.. but what? Wars may be driven by a leader's need for enjoyment? What the hell? Point out one example of that, please. War is a costly, risky endeavor. And it seems you contradict yourself by also saying that war is not most likely driven by our more animalistic side but enjoyment as itself seems a pretty base reason for war. I don't know, I haven't the time right now to properly construct a more insightful piece. Also, peace out guys.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
My pleasure. Many conflicts were simply provoked to appease the boredom of a leader. The strongest example of the top of my head was a Transylvanian emperor, who was the inspiration for Dracula. He relished in the torture of others, including his enemies. His lust for pain was rooted at witnessing the torture and murder of his father by the Roman Saxons. I can get further into this, but the emperor's name has slipped my mind.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
My, owning this place already?
War, like JonaXia said, is the influx of human egotism to the boiling point. Stated on the basic level, nationality, patriotism, and domination, they all fit seamlessly into such category. All motivated by the influential pride, theres merely nothing beautiful about war, only humans' little competition of avarice and greed. As long as humans exist, war is forevermore omnipresent. Quote:
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Pretty sure Russia isn't really keen on starting a war and expanding their holdings. Maybe I've somehow missed something from the news lately, but Russia's been fairly conciliatory. About the only thing they've done lately of diplomatic import has been to refuse to recognise Kosovar independance.
And as for Vlad the Impaler, he was a Romanian nobleman, at his peak roughly equivalent to a prince. He wasn't an emperor, his life occured -well- after the Roman Empire had collapsed, and the principle enemy of his people was the Ottoman Turks, not Saxons. His father was assassinated by his own people, not outsiders. He was also only born in Translyvania, he ruled and lived in Wallachia, which is a ways to the south of Translyvania. His "lust for power" generally extended to resisting the inroads of the Ottomans to claim Wallachia as part of the Ottoman Empire, and while his big impaling fit was historically accurate, the people who were impaled were captured invading turkish soldiers. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
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As far as war goes, I don't like wars that go nowhere or just further seperate the world. I support anything that unifies the world to becoming one peaceful nation without these small nations and divisions. However, I'm not saying that the world should be like super Nazi Germany or something, but a giant, united nation with peace for everyone. Whether peace or war can accomplish this I don't know, but I would hope that it could somehow peacefully happen even though I seriously doubt it. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Cultural isolation (although not whole) might be the only way to keep the most peace throughout the world.
If I'm not mistaken, one reason for the skirmishes in Iraq (I've been trying to avoid using the term "war" for what's going on over there) is us trying to encourage democracy on the Islamic peoples and bring the Sunnis and Shia together. This clearly isn't working, and Iraq was probably more stable and friendly when Saddam was in power due to the fact that he kept the two Muslim factions away from each other. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
And once again, the poor Kurds just get completely ignored. The largest ethnic group on EARTH that doesn't have its own country, and nobody even seems to notice they exist.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
I haven't heard much of the Kurdish people at all, as crazy as it seems. Could you give me a brief overview of their involvement in the conflicts in the Middle East?
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
What about the Israel/Palestine conflict? Perfect example of war going nowhere.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
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They represent as much as 20% of the population of some of these countries, but are incredibly underrepresented in any kind of political control or positions of authority. In places like Turkey, speaking Kurdish was actually illegal for a lot of years, and pretty much all the middle eastern governments are very repressive of their kurdish populations, because it is widely feared that all of these people (somewhere around 30 MILLION of them) might one day get it in their heads to band together and declare themselves an independant state. That's mostly troubling because Kurds religiously are a lot more tolerant than most branches of Islam. They have less harsh strictures for women etc. Chances are very good that a large-scale internal civil war in Iraq would basically result in the creation of three seperate countries, a Sunni, a Shi'a and a Kurdish state. If that happened, it would be very likely that Turkish Kurds would start agitating to join the new country, and there would be some pretty far-reaching political consequences for the area. Quote:
Israel and Palestine were created by writ by the UN after the second world war, and basically said "We're making a two-state system in this country, one state is jewish, and the other is muslim" Pretty much as soon as this went through, Israel declared its independance from Palestine, and the arab league declared war and attacked Israel. Israel managed to get the US on board helping them out and they won that war, and then later invaded and annexed a bunch of land that was Palestine's. The entire conflict at this point centres around for one, whether the UN actually had a mandate to just plop down national lines like that, and two, if they did, how to resolve their mutual claims to Jerusalem, and how to resolve the issue of the large number of palestinian refugees living in areas that Israel took over and are now expanding into. The fact that if at any point the US withdrew their support from Israel, they would probably get flattened like a mack truck certainly doesn't help anything, though teh US has been supplying and training them for so long now that it would take a while for things to wind down. It is a really dirty and ugly conflict because both of these people are fighting in what they consider to be defense of their homeland. It isn't something that could ever have been ended easily, because there's no possible win/win compromise in their minds. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
If this group of people is more tolerant than the others it seems to me that they should gain power. It would be less violent, in my opinion.
Also, thanks, devonin, for answering my question. I was slightly confused. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Just because they are more in line in some of their attitudes with the west doesn't mean they ought to get power just because. And while I'm all for the creation of an independant Kurdistan, they are individually too small a percentage of the population in their home nations to ever win democratic elections.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Why wouldn't it be a good idea to put a lenient Middle Eastern group in power? Even if their democracy dwindled the other countries would want to keep them in power because they would need to take advantage of the fact that they wouldn't have to put up with the other Middle Eastern countries, therefore the Western countries would support their democracy.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Western countries does not affiliate with whatever system the Middle Easterns have, I certainly doubt the Middle East would gain redemption due to their new and hopeful democracy from western nations, not to mention support it and also assuming it would even succeed.
"Get non violent people running the show! That way, we wouldn't need to worry about them anymore because they won't cause trouble anyways." is your opinion, I presume. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Though I normally frown upon a one word answer in CT, all I have to say is "yes" because that is my opinion.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
But you're suggesting that what American should do is depose a government and replace it with a government of their own choosing, and then using American military power to keep that government in control of the state, solely because America has decided they like them more. What's more, you're putting a MINORITY in charge of the whole country? 17% of the population gets their regime put into power?
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Pretty much what I'm saying is if the need to actually avoid war is there, using pacifists/ignorant people to calm a country is better than using bombs. If we put lenient people in charge then that eliminates the aspect of war [, moderately]. However, putting a hostile group in charge almost directly advocates war.
My basic theory for the Middle East: force a democracy to remain in Iraq and influince the other Middle Eastern countries into a democratic union. Keep it forced for approximately 70 years. My point to that theory? Because the people that are in charge now have been used to a dictatorship their entire lives. Once their dead and the next generation is in power they'll keep ve democracy because they were used to the [forced] democracy their entire lives. |
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
I don't think that Rzr realizes that many jihadis are trained from the time that they can speak. One man passes his learning to his child, that child passes it onto his child, and it continues. Even if we force a democracy, there will still be fighting, possibly a never-ending struggle.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
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Thanks Zythus and rzr. Props to you too. Quote:
The reason why we need democracy is to avoid power hungry individuals, like what I said before, that enjoy war or have their own ideals. We could just leave them in power, where there is no peace, women get raped like it is something you do before you have dinner, child executions are right beside the adults. How about we go in and try to do something about it. I don't care if there is an scondary motive like oil. If peace eventually comes out of it, then why not? |
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Again, a contradiction. Next generation? Their religion will influence them more than some preliminary democracy we throw at them. I'm inclined to think a revolt will occur pretty soon after this nice simulating democracy. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
I have not once, on any thread, said that I think America should withdraw from Iraq.
I do, however, agree with you that a revolt will occur in the near future. Hence why we should keep troops there, to control it. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
And to shoot them, less people means more fearing America and more going to Democracy.
Then again more extremists So we go to far black/whites. Meh |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Okay, maybe this is the question that needs to be asked of you guys:
Why are you so sure that an American style democracy is the best form of government for everybody? What makes the American system so perfect and flawless that it ought to be forced onto everybody in the world? What if the people don't -want- a democracy? What if the culture and the society are based around tribal lines, respecting elders, or authority coming down from the church? What you're suggesting is that the best course of action for America is enforced cultural genocide, enforced conversion to secular politics, and an insistance that these cultures, that are thousands of years old are -inferior- to the piddly little 230 years America has been around. You don't find anything morally ambiguous about the suggestion that America is better than everyone else, so everyone else should be forced to become like America? |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
it is our discretion to promote democracy, mainly because US and Canada both use (or supposedly use) this system of government. I do not believe that democracy is the only choice for the middle east, but knowing that we live in peace in Canada or US, we are inclined to induce our successful government system upon theirs. Maybe dictatorship is the best government for them (hopefully, not an evil dictator). Maybe their religious factions are so intolerant of each other, we need the arbitration of dictatorship to preserve peace. Its not an easy question, its paradoxic and ideological at the same time.
At the same time, democracy isn't the flawless cogs and gears to success and power. A comparison to dictatorship, communism, or facism, democracy gives you the aluring chance to speak your mind, however this does not guarntee your happiness to one decision. You could have voted for a party, but they didn't get elected. But it is resentment knowing that you had a say in things, yet you never got it. Dictatorship, one authoritarian figurehead makes the decisions, don't like it? Die. Its more sliding on your fear to obey the laws. If you don't like it here, its resentment without choice, one would feel like they just have to suck it up and live with it. So the comparison would be: Democracy: You were given a chance, yet your minority didn't call the shots like the majority did. Dictatorship: You live to obey, you do not get any options. Hate us because you won't ever call the shots. Preference perhaps depend on the individual to choose one of these. Some would perfer be not given a chance to say their mind because an elected government could not be a government they wish for. Others might find it invaluable to have their decision change and shape the country. I personally, would go for democracy, yet (as long as the dictator is not evil) dictatorship wouldn't be too awful either. |
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Yeah, I do see the part where we made it a requisition of democracy, but perhaps it is just induction because we live in such a system, so we feel we need to have a "crusade" to convert other countries to our liking.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
I guess they are called extremeists for a reason, but not just the jihadis that go to those lengths. But if they reject a democracy, forced or not, then they would be basically asking for an authoritarian system or willing to fall into pandemonium. If they are faithful enough to "transcend" any efforts to resuscitate their position, forced or not, then be it and we shall await their fated war. I am not in the position to impose that they are blighted by their religious beliefs, but to go to that extremity, I would beg to differ.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Or maybe they aren't even so vehemantly opposed to the concept of democratic government, so much as a culture that stands in opposition to almost everything their own culture stands for trying to force their beliefs on them.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Perhaps the best to hope for if America withdraws, is a Middle Eastern civil war. That sounds horrible, I know, but at least in that scenario they would be solving their problems on their own without Western involvement and would come to a solution all on their own. Like the American civil war. Now we as a country live in [moderate] civility and have resolved our conflicts without foreign help.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
And since that's the -best- hope you can envision, and it will happen RIGHT AWAY if American withdraws, that suggests to me that you should start advocating for that withdrawl. If you can bring about the best case scenario right away, why would you try to stop it from happening?
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
Touche'
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
This thread is now concluded.
Conclusion: -It would be bad if US still occupied Iraq, but it would be evenly chaotic if they left. -The Middle East needs a shakedown, its been accumulating for a time now. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Soldiers on both sides of a battle are the same in death.
They both want something better in the end but they both end up naked, blown to bits and washed up dead on the beach. Australia is unique in being one of the only countries in the world to celebrate their biggest military defeat (with pride). Australia's biggest military defeat was the battle of Gallipoli which ended in 1916. Australia suffered 27,594 casualties... and only years later, Australia was allies with Turkey again. Is war worth it? Certainly not for those soldiers. |
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War has been obsolete since the invention of the telephone.
But putting the half kidding(yes HALF kidding) aside, we will always have war because power makes people crazy. It just does, it happens. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
War is acceptable when it comes to wiping out unwanted people. Against eachother? Not worth the money, time, lives, and effort.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
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I'm not sure that they could solve their problems on their own. Like Devonin said, these cultures are thousands of years old, yet still have conflicts. Civil war and separating countries separating would be more like ignoring the problem rather that solving it. I do support countries/cultures solving their own problems when possible, though, I mean, we are doing pretty good, and we didn't have much help. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Yeah, but what's the worst that could happen? They wipe each other out entirely? Ok, well that's about 50% of the world's cultures gone, but a good chunk of violence too.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
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Homosexuals are often persecuted. Should we wipe them out, too? |
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I mean, theoretically the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand should have caused a conflict between no more than just Austria-Hungary and Turkey, but instead we got a massive intercontinental war. These things never stay in the arena they start with, they always expand. Quote:
I suppose the other thing you might be trying to say is "War against other countries is okay, civil war isn't"? But to that I'd suggest that if two factions in a country are sufficiently at odds with one another to go to war, that they probably shoudln't be considered one country in the first place. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
The thing about that is, too many people's opinions differ on who is "unwanted" and who is "wanted".
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
My english class recently had a discussion of one of the mottos of the Party Members in 1984 by George Orwell, War is Peace. The discussion was thought provoking. We came to the conclusion of sometimes you need war to gain peace. So in a sense war is necessary. We came to the conclusion that war is sometimes needed to gain peace because if you don't fight for a common cause more issues will come about. But if you have war and eventually come to terms with the issues you may gain peace.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
All of these posts... tl;dr
Power corrupts humans, makes them violent and selfish; It doesn't matter who's president, this can't be stopped easily. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Don't tl;dr in this forum unless you'd like to stop being allowed to post in this forum. If you can't be bothered to read the thread before you post in it, don't post.
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edit: my bad, maybe I shouldn't of said tl;dr in the first place, sorry. |
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Besides, political power is only as powerful as people will let them be. If no one is willing to obey two opposite General's order's to charge, then nothing happens. |
Re: War: Is it worth it?
Is war worth it? Hm...
When U.S. had a crisis involving slaves. How did we settle it? With war. (I mean we tried to avoid war but in the end everything led to war) Who won? The north. What did the North get from winning the war. Rights. Freed slaves and etc. War is harsh but they fought for a reason. So war is worth it when it's for a good reason I guess. |
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Fun Fact: Many of the southern states were in the process of, or considering starting the process of abolishing slavery while the war was being fought. A proposed constitution for a United Confederate States was going to basically do that as well.
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Re: War: Is it worth it?
We already suffer from overpopulation problems on this rock. War just keeps a balance of sorts. If we were not fighting since our existance things would be much worse right now with billions more people fighting over whatever would be left of this planet without war. I mean we do breed like rats and consume everything...
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