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The Death Penalty
China, Iran, the United States and Vietnam were the world's top users of the death penalty in 2003, accounting for 84 percent of known executions, human rights body Amnesty International said Tuesday.
More than half of known executions were in China, where the true toll could be more than 10 times higher, according to the British-based Amnesty's annual report. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=4764966 It's kind of a manipulative headline, china is responsible for the vast majority of that 84%, us has around 65 executions and china over 600. Anyways, what do you guys think of the death penalty? I'm against killing in general, but if you've got a totally deranged psycho who's out of touch with reality, isn't it better to put them out of their misery sometimes, instead of paying for their meals until they finally die? On the other hand, as many as 10% of all deathrow inmates are innocent, I heard that on A&E. What's your take on it? |
They not always 100% sure the people are guilty. I remember a long time ago when they found out that a guy who had been put to death ALREADY was completely innocent.. they gave the family a few billion dollars or something to "make up for it".
This is the main reason why I'm against the death penalty (and we don't have it here in Canada, yay). They're often not as sure as they think they are. |
I belive if there is enough evidence that i can be proven many different ways that they did the crime, then they should be put to death.
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Why?
Money? Because it will save us money? It takes the perpetrator off the streets. Then why execution? There is a simple pill of a compound unknown to me. Simple, nearly instant. Painless. Electrocution. Lethal Injection. My understanding of Capital punishment is not a painless death. Can the state not have humanity in its killing? People want revenge. Suffering. We're not sure of afterlife. Even those who see hellfire in the executee's future. So there is the desire for his eye. From the taking of ours. The state is made of the people. Capital Punishment. Toward our willingness to exact this punishment, And our individual willingness to accept it, Specforces |
^For some reason FFR is glitching and signed me in as that person above me, I've never seen that screenname before, weird, huh?
Specforces |
I believe that the death penalty is not correct or right and that the people that are put to death should be given a second chance. The thing is, is that it is not possible to just not put them to death. Often the family members of the person that was killed, as that should be the only reason to put someone to death, wan't the murderer to get the death penalty. The thing is even though nobody really wants the person to die, we don't have any alternative. Putting them in jail for life isn't giving them a second chance, its just putting them in a concrete room, and wasting the goverments money. The best thing to do would be to try and find a talent they have, get them to contribute to society. But this can't be done without endangering other people if the murderer still is set on killing. So They can't give them a second chance and nothing can be done. That is why the death penalty is wrong and I do not like it, but I do realize that it is neccesary until we can find a way to let them become a better person without endangering others. So that is my statement on that.
On the subject of china killing so much, I simply think that they need to realize that by not being very friendly with other countries and by not having a vrey good goverment, they are effectively killing themselves. I think all of the asian countries need to try and make themselves better goverments. Thanks for reading, Boccobrock |
You also have to remember that china is a dictatorship and their population is 10 times the size of the united states, so they're close to equal per capita.
You can get the death penalty if you get caught with weed in Indonesia (i'm pretty sure it's indonesia). That's crazy. But if somebody won't be rehabilitated, and I think we will all agree that drugging them up to the point where they're barely in touch with reality is cruel, and they are set on murdering more, they attack guards and other inmates, should they be put to sleep like a rapid dog? |
Firing squads, simple way to kill a killer. Cost-effective too.
Specforces |
An unjust punishment.
MYTH: The death penalty is a fair punishment, because "the punishment suits the crime." FACT: We do not use that same philosophy with our other punishments. We do not mug muggers. We do not rape rapists. We do not abuse abusers. There is no reason for us to kill killers. MYTH: The death penalty is cheaper than life-in-prison FACT: Because states require more prosecutors and longer cases and allow more appeals on death penalty cases, the average death penalty sentence costs the taxpayers tens of thousands more than the average life-without-parole sentence. In addition, while all the court proceedings are occuring, the defendant is spending years in prison spending the same amount of taxpayer money he would anyway. MYTH: Lethal injection is painless. FACT: There are many cases in which lethal injection has gone horribly wrong. Either not enough drug has been given to kill the person (sending them into excruciating pain) or a usable vein cannot be found (on heroin addicts.) |
chardish, got any sources to back up the cost comparison?
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I didn't see anything about the cost there?
But I think it's logical to assume that after somebody dies, you can't ask them if their lethal injection hurt. |
By the same logic, you can say "After somebody dies, you can't ask them if their brutal multiple stabbings hurt."
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Yeah, maybe it felt good. An orgy of pain so overwhelming it actually felt good.
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See the movie "The Passion Of The Christ" and then tell me that would feel good.
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There is an easy way to solve the whole inaccurate death injection thing. Shoot them in the back of the head. That is a kill 100% of the time (in video games). Or to many this more interesting, they could do six executions in a row (with suspected innocent people), and play russian roulette. Sure, it would piss a lot of people off, but theres a new reality show on FOX.
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Don't bump CT topics with nothing to add.
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It's possible to take a bullet through the head and live. People have done it. As for the death penalty, it's excessively costly, results in the deaths of innocents, doesn't serve as a deterrent to other criminals, is used highly disproportionately on minorities, and on top of that violent crime in states with the death penalty is generally much higher than in other states. Some have argued this is why the death penalty needs to be in place, others argue that the perpetuation of a mentality of justifiable violence through the death penalty erodes cultural mechanisms which prevent violent behavior.
There's absolutely no justification for the death penalty. The emotional rage of the family is hardly a basis for murdering someone, even when they're a murderer themselves. The only conceivable use would be if the death penalty was opted for by the criminal, but in that case that would imply life in prison was the less desirable sentence. |
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What do you do for violent, dangerous criminals who are not deterred by prison terms, who have been determined by experts to be completely uninterested in rehabilitation, and who, if released are almost 100% certain to simply continue offending and being a violent dangerous person? Such a person is a danger to society, and themselves. I'm not actually advocating for the death penalty here, I'm just pointing out a situation where one could argue it would be justified. If someone is a serial killer, unrepentant, intending to continue, and the best psychologists and psychiatrists have determined that they are simply never going to "see the error of their ways" and rehabilitate, do you really think that the justice system lives up to its name to make taxpayers financially support such a person forever? |
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I am opposed to the death penalty. Simply because i believe that no human being has the right to take another persons life. It's just not their place. However, like the first post said, If you've got some psyhco deranged killer, I would much rather see them put to death then to waste my countries tax dollars on supporting them in prison until they die.
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So...you oppose it because it is wrong, and no human has a right to do it...except if the person is just a really bad guy? Doesn't that seem a little convenient to you?
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Well, we can all sit and debate about the technical aspects of the death penalty, and sympathize with the poor man or woman strapped, restrained, and being injected with lethal chemicals. But when it is your sister, brother, or parent that was killed, you're not going to have any sympathy, and all this intellectual battle over the morality of the death penalty will go down the toilet.
As to a point chardish made- yes, the death penalty is expensive. But with the death penalty, money goes to appeals trials in an attempt to prove the potential innocence of the accused, whereas without the death penalty, money goes to convicted felons and monsters to get food and sustenance in prison. |
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I have mixed feelings about capital punishment.
On one hand, seeing an axe murderer get killed is, as awful as it is, gratfying(spelling?). While we may think "Oh my god, that's horriable", it is still human nature to want revenge. Humans are far from perfect. I think the punishment should fit the crime, though. If you kill 20 people, then I say death penelty ftw. If you kill one person, in a painless way, even though it's wrong... I say it's not worth it. Sure, 'Eye for an eye' sounds nice on paper, but doesn't really work in reality. We're in America (Assuming you're talking about America, which uses capital punishment. If you're not in America, then, my bad. :B), not Ancient Mesopotamia. |
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The death penalty is appropriate in some cases.
I think that serial killers and other such people who have taken things to an extreme should be put to death. Also, like has been said, people who show no interest in rehabilitating or stopping their murder need to be put to death. True these cases are few and far between, but the death penalty should be there as a punishment if there is an absolutely necessity. However, a murderer who doesn't take it to that extreme should just be reprimanded with a prison sentence. Besides, I think that the mental tourture of "life in prison without parrol" would detter more people from committing a crime. (But perhaps that's just my opinion) |
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The justice system has so completely and utterly failed to make prison (even for life) any kind of deterrant. As I said in another thread once: The rights of a person in jail are among the most zealously protected out there.
I think that the quality of life you have in prison should be inversely proportional to the length of the prison term. Get 6 months for B&E? I'm okay with the current standards of library access, computer access, reasonably good food and so on that exist today in most prisons. Get life with no parole for murdering a half dozen people? You get an empty cell, enough food and drink to keep you alive, and not one damn thing more. When prison life is enough better than life on the streets, that there is a -major- problem in places with cold winters, where homeless people let themselves get arrested for a minor crime, hoping for a 6-month sentence to get them through the cold months, because the guarentee of food, shelter and access to resources is -better- than what they can get outside prison, something is wrong with the system. |
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In all honesty I am not that crazy about the death penalty. I don't think that it is really justifiable: You kill someone, it was wrong, you shouldn't have done that, but we are going to kill you to make it right? Hypocrisy anyone?
On the other hand, completely deranged people don't exactly need to be walking around free... and putting them in jail just lets them live out their days in confinement, where nothing is happening to them that is nearly as bad as what they have done that would constitute a death penalty conviction... So... I don't think that the death penalty is completely the right thing, or completely the wrong thing. If someone murders another person many will rush to the conclusion that they should die in return, eye for an eye, Hammurabi's Code and all that jazz. And I guess sometimes that the death penalty should be seen as a fitting punishment, but other times no. The A&E statistic quoted earlier is something I have heard not only on TV but in a few classes I have taken. 10% of convictions aren't right, so therefore, 10% of the time we would be killing the wrong person!? IF and WHEN the death penalty is considered I think it should only be used if there in undeniable evidence that the crime was committed by the individual on trial and that beyond a shadow of a doubt it can in no way be anyone else's doing; that the punishment is that fitting the crime. When it comes down to it I suppose I am a bit indifferent... I'm not the one injecting people with lethal doses of drugs or flipping switches to electrocute people or anything else; and fortunately me or my family have never been put in a position where we have to deal with such a thing and don't want to. In short I suppose: Don't do it if you aren't sure about it, and even then, really think. Then, if the death penalty still seems fitting, then okay. As for paying for those sentenced to life, I don't like that aspect; keeping criminals alive for life after committing such horrible acts. But, something has got to give. |
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You're paying money no matter what. You're actually paying more for the death penalty.
Oh, and to the constant argument "they did something bad, it doesn't feel right for them not to suffer in return"; **** that. The willingness to hurt others is at the core of the problem in the first place. Are you jealous of murderers or something? You hate them for choosing to satisfy themselves at the cost of another, so you use them to do the same? Get the hell over yourselves. |
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Let me drop my opinion :), ok the death penalty, there comes a time when we have to look at a person and really judge if they are a menace to society or not. Ive known people that have did things to support their family, sure it was bad what they did and it wasnt right but should they die for trying to support their family? sure they could get a job, unless you are constantly judged by your color or the workplace you are at is discriminating you and there is nothing you can do about it. well I do believe certain people just shouldnt be let loose into society, I say the victim's family kill them the not government. I have no natural desire to hurt anyone, but if we dont hurt someone then they would ultimately hurt you or walk all over you and your family and do you really want that? personally I beleive we really dont have the right to judge someone, but sometimes you have to go against your beliefs to better support your life and family.
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You're missing the point. You can prevent such a person from killing or injuring other people by imprisonment as easily as by the death penalty, and imprisonment is the lesser of the two evils. If you're going to go against your values you might as well choose the manner in which you sacrifice the least of them.
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I have mixed view on this as well...
Honestly i agree that jail life (because of humanitarians) is a lot better than you think. The only thing you really have to worry about in jail is the other people with you and going insane from boredom. This is significantly less to worry about than if you are on the street where most criminals come from. Spending life in prison: as humane as it sounds, would suck hardcore. The person would be placed in the jail cell for the rest of their known life with nothing to do. They would almost literally be suffering everyday mentally until they die. The only reason i could see this as good is that the only time it is too late to prove their innocence due to new evidence is when they die nearly 30 years later. If someone knows that from the crimes they have committed will land them life in jail then they will know that they have nothing to lose but their life. So in this case they will continue their crime spree as long as they can. (Dont know how this fits into the conversation but it was a random on topic thought to consider). Also, getting the death sentence (as i would only be able to imagine) wouldnt scare a hardened criminal so thinking of making it a legal practice to 'scare' them is not very logical. Opposing this, although it gives more trials that could prove their innocence, giving the death sentence severely limits the chance someone who is innocent will be freed. One last though, we as humans are not all knowing and as such do not have the ability to judge someone and say that they deserve to die. Through their actions we can judge them according to the crimes they have committed, however this does not give any one person (or group of people) any kind of right to say "YOU DESERVE TO DIE" and then do it. Even with all the unethical arguments against it and having said all that, i am leaning more towards the pro death sentence side but still remain fairly moderate on the subject. |
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How much is a life worth? If someone can solve that we wouldn't have to think about this question at all. If one life was worth as much as another then kill them all.
By leaving someone who commits a murder alive we are saying that the criminal's life is worth more then the person he murdered. |
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i tihnk the death penalty should be used for the people who are obviously guilty, for the worst of the worst of crimes, EG: Karla Homolka, i dont want this freakshow living in possibly my neighbourhood, knowing what she and her husband have done to their victims, its retarded that she's free now... she should have been put to death along with her husband, too bad Canada does not have the death penalty.
P.S if you dont know who karla homolka is, look her up on google or wikipedia... *EDIT* adding onto my original lil post, the death penalty should only be put on people, who have commited the worst of the worst of crimes, such as first degree murder, and which looking at the evidence, the credability of the witnesses, and other factors, whether they are indeed 100% guilty, and depending on the way they had done the crime, like did the victim suffer, and to what degree they suffered, while they had died, or how severe the crime had been, they should have been put to death. |
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You cant really measure how much the victim suffered though unless you ask them like someone said about asking the person if the stabs hurt. Also, i agree with unkdavar, in that we cannot show how much one life is worth in comparison to another.
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If the family forgives the killer then I don't see why the death penalty should be instituted. But in most unreasonable homicides, I doubt that is the case. Quote:
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I think the biggest problem people have with this issue is not about the money necessarily, its about the ethics associated with making such a decision.
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oh for crying out loud. You're feeding a convicted person no matter what. Get used to the idea. The argument you've chosen is quantifiably baseless. Quote:
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Ok, so your argument then seems to be that because under the death penalty the criminal can tie up the justice system for a long period of time, as long as they keep their guilt in contention it's fine for them to eat, but a soon as they can't do this anymore it's wrong for them to eat. ... .... ... WHAT? So the justice in feeding a person is based on whether or not some arbitrary and expensive custom is in place? Quote:
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Edit: If we go on like this I'm going to end up leaving the debate, because I get tired out really, really easily when dealing with a massive amount of text. It's a big fault and I may not belong on CT for it, but I should let you know....I will most likely respond though...
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But, and here's another pointless concession, clemency is not enough. For instance, Wanda Jean's victims' family were mostly forgiving, and she had a borderline retarded IQ. She was not granted clemency, and she did not deserve the death penalty. And Texas and many of the states who use the DP really overuse it. The very fact that innocent people could be on death row is terrifying. Imo, that's the greatest argument against the DP and one I have trouble responding to. Quote:
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If you're saying: I don't have the right to interfere with a killers actions, that's a somewhat shocking statement. If you're saying: I don't have the right to prevent the government from killing someone I don't like, that seems to contradict an earlier statement. Why don't you just clarify what you mean? Quote:
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No, to mimic the senseless and hypocritical educators of this country "I don't care who started it, if you continue it you're just as bad as anyone else". Except I don't go on to prove my lack of character by forcibly restraining you and putting you in confinement. Quote:
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The other issue is that while generally I would disagree that they waive their humanity as a result of their crimes, I think there is a potential argument that as a person entrusted with power over a populace by the populace, by failing this contract they have deprived themselves of something or other, although I'm having difficulty weighing specific considerations at the moment. Quote:
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You know what the best guarantee is that an innocent person might be exonerated? If they're alive. If you're willing to spend money to give a person the opportunity to prove their innocence, there's no reason paying to keep them in prison for life and to feed them contradicts this. Quote:
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I don't criticize or go against death penalty. In fact, death penalty was here to destroy all evil inside these humans (hopefully they don't destroy their minds).
The Catholic Church was trying to "ban" death penalty because it was trying to remove the very essense and meaning of life itself. It was a complete mockery to kill someone just because he or she did such a terrible disgrace. Capital Punishment also has a looooooooong history. Firstly they used beheadings by using guillotines. It was quick and painless solution. Secondly next to the invention of electricity was the electric chair, used to fry the skin out of humans. After that they used gas chambers to smoke out remaining breaths of criminals. Now in the modern times they used lethal injections. All were in the books except for hangings. Hanging was not a quick solution, it was meant to rot out a human throat in order of the victim to die. It requires a lot of time, usually a minute or two. Death can always be the end. Some people deserve death, some do not. What only controls our desires like this the control of overflow of emotions, misuse of intellectual thoughts and (most importantly) the lack of common-sense. But it must go on. Surely, choices can be reversed, but not this one. We should only accept reality and not go on completely with theory. I agree to death penalty, heh, maybe because I hate humans too much. |
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I didn't read all of this crap, but if you ask me the death penalty is wrong. If we murder them we are stooping down to their level, remember the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right"? Hope this was'nt a dead thread........
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2/ Yes we remember the saying, would you care to connect it to the topic at hand? Isn't locking someone up forever also a "wrong"? In that case, you seem to support two wrongs making a right. 3/ It wasn't dead, but that doesn't mean that a random lagrely empty bump isn't still a bad call. |
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That's the best I can say, lol. |
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I'm sorry I didnt make a response, I have half of it saved on notepad but I find myself way too lazy to continue the second half. It takes me almost 30 minutes for these responses and it tires the hell out of me. Also there is another issue which is 20 times more important to me that I'm debating on with many other people in other forums (gaza) and that is why I didn't put this on high priority. But if/when I do finish the response I'll edit this post and put it here.
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If you kill someone, we will kill you back.
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I approve of the death penalty. Very few times does this happen. I would know, speaking as a person that lives with a detective type family. Asia, somewhat like America, has people that are ****y ( boasting a lot- if it cuts out) , and that like to do things fast. Most of the time, the detective agencies there judge to quickly, without a lot of hard work. I believe that America works harder, and that about (researched) 2% of all cases, is there ever a false convict. |
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"It is better that one hundred guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer."
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edit: beat me to it, but that quote is off. Well, considering it originally had to do with witches I suppose the revision is called for.
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Actually, if you look up the history of the quote, the particular version I stated was attributed to Ben Franklin. A similar quote referencing the witch trials is also stated, along with plenty of others. It is a useful quote, and it has been adapted plenty of times.
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The statement is less an objective one of actual numbers (Like, it isn't therefore saying that if only 10 guilty persons escape it is therefore justified for one person to suffer) and more of a statement of the purpose of the justice system as a whole.
The numbers are irellevant, the statement is saying that if there is even the -slightest most miniscule tiny chance that maybe the person is not guilty - then they ought not to be punished because, as the saying implies: It is better than -any number- of guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer. Unfortunately, since that level of incontrovertable truth is functionally impossible to obtain, we have to settle for "Beyond a -reasonable- doubt" but even "reasonable" is a term up for debate. |
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Capital punishment is a barbaric institution with absolutely no justification. This thread is littered with the already effectively countered cost arguments, and people claiming that if what a person does is "really really bad and they are a threat to society" that it is our obligation to kill that person on the basis that it will remove said threat to society and serve as a deterrant of violent crime.
First point: Killing someone does not deter crime, but merely institutionalizes it in the form of governmental practice. Killing someone does not remove the threat from society any more than does life in prison, which is--given statistics--a much more cost-effective option. Second Point: I want to start off by saying that these issues are not inherent with the death penalty per se, but rather problems that have developed as a result of its poor execution. Statistics imply massive problems with the death penalty in regard to its distribution based on race (statistics have already been given) and minorites are with disturbing frequency the brunt of this practice. The practice of capital punishment has become incredibly expensive through the process of appeals and maintenance of criminals during their time on death row. Tax payers money is being wasted on an institution that does not benefit society in ANY way, but only exists to satisfy the vengeful wishes of a victim's loved ones. Final statements: The death penalty simply cannot be justified as anything except a violent, brutal method of meeting a victim's family's desire for revenge. The emotions of loved ones is an empathizable story indeed, but not one that can legally or morally justify the eye for an eye philosophy that cannot exist in a truly equal society. |
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I do not approve of the death penalty. Why? While it may be "humane" (which I don't entirely approve of either), they fail to think of the consequences. I mean sure, that person may have killed 10-20 people (just using an example), but seriously. It doesn't give them the right to kill. In my opinion, Capitol Punishment should be ended and 'il'legalized.
I know quite a few people who have friends who have faced the Capitol Punishment. Luckily for me I live in Canada, one of the few places where Capitol Punishment is not believed in, nor legal. |
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/ships our deathrow inmates to Canada :0
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All America's secret operations happens outside of the country for a reason.
They aren't really secret because we all know they use inhumane ways of torture on people the government doesn't like. ~Tsugomaru |
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First of all, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, second of all at least within the past 50 years or so secret detainment and torture have occurred within the United States.
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Still, I support it. |
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Still, I support it. Quote:
If someone shoots someone, I say shoot them back. If someones life is taking, than equivalent exchange needs to take place. If Iraq kills 1000 of our people, we will kill 1000 of their people. President Bush, being smart, will kill all of the terrorists that live in Iraq. Still, I support. [SORRY DOUBLE POSTED!] |
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[/quote]On the other hand, as many as 10% of all deathrow inmates are innocent, I heard that on A&E.
What's your take on it?[/quote] Even if they are guilty, it's still not right because you're stooping down to that death row inmate's level of homicide (supposing that's why he/she's there). The death penalty is murder and should therefore be illegal. |
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Let us see if this works.
First, it is agreed by one and all that the sanctity of life is paramount and must be protected above all else. In order to protect life a systematic codification of laws, consequences and exceptions has been instituted. As part of legal consequences to be considered, the death penalty is included. Secondly, the death penalty is just that: a penalty. It is supposed to be meted out, not by vengeful relations, but by a dispassionate legal system. Therefore it is not a person getting revenge but a systematic judgement of one's actions and the consequences for those actions. Third, the justice system has a comprehensive system of checks and balances designed to protect the individual's rights to a fair trial such that, in the end, it could be said that the criminal had a chance to plead his case. It is possible that if all the conditions were properly and adequately met, then very few people would argue that the death penalty was unjust. The problem is not with the penalty itself, but with the inadequacies of the legal system. There only needs to be one false conviction, one misstep, and the fear of further errors freezes the confidence the society has in the justice system and in the fairness of a death penalty conviction and that is the real issue facing our society. The death penalty is a fair and proper consequence for inappropriate actions if it is available at the time of the crime. It is not a matter of stooping down to any level but standing up to what is wrong. If the perpetrator commits a crime, then he must be subject to the consequences for that crime and we as a society must declare our support for law and order by supporting the punishment for that crime. |
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As if one "The Death Penalty" thread wasn't enough for eager exhibitionists to exercise their pseudo-intellectual knowledge on topics as inflexible and controversial as this. And shame on me for posting in the previous thread as well as this one. Using Guidohunter's fine analogy, this topic is simply a meaningless tier of consecutive arguments. One person suggests red and others presents it as green to which subsequent posts babbles about the exact tonalities of the green with full loads of purple proses and pedantic observations. It's all too common with the conventional bravado and psychodrama of individuals who enjoys presenting themselves as "intelligent" on, ironically, a gaming site.
Take it any way you will. I feel shamed to have been a participant in this thing called "Critical Thinking". |
Re: The Death Penalty
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The proper course of action in this thread would be to have reported it for being a bump of the older and less posted in thread, instead of the one which was the proud winner of the 2008 forum awards best thread of the year. |
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