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KlingPosnot 02-15-2008 11:39 PM

Acceptable Suicide?
 
Can a person's suicide ever be reasonably accepted?......keep in mind suicide is killing ones self, and one doesn't always have to make a conscious decision to do so...For example, studies have shown that the human body can be tricked into physical illness by thoughts in the brain. This can happen (even up to death) if the person convinces themselves they have the disease...A sort of self hypnosis if you will...So my question can actually be translated into (in this particular case), "Is a person always to be held at fault for their own death if they were responsible for it, whether it be at a conscious or subconscious level?"...Interpret this question however you want...Keep in mind my example was just one of many possible ways to elaborate on the question.

Bynary Fission 02-16-2008 03:41 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
In most cases, suicide is for the weak. For example, if a junkie gets AIDS from using a tainted needle when getting a hit of smack, then it's his fault. If somebody embezzles people and steals, yet bad fortune befalls him and he goes broke, and possibly caught, it's his fault. Those who commit suicide are cowards. They cannot face up to what they have done, and want an easy way out. The world would be better off without them.

But there is an exception, at least in my eyes. Have you ever heard of Huntington's Disease? It is characterized by a slow slip into dementia, it causes speech impairments, and extreme, shooting pain all across the body constantly. You linger for 10-15 years before you finally die. I once saw a moving documentary on a mother who lost her sons and father to this disease. Her father died after 15 years of developing the disease. She killed two of her sons after they screamed and begged for mercy, for her to kill them after suffering for years with this disease. She eventually did it. It was ruled assisted suicide, and she got 5 years, but served a 1/3 of it. She was not looked upon as a monster for what she did, in fact it caused a stir, and people went outside the courthouse protesting her punishment.

To be honest, that is a fate worse than death. Somebody with such a disease would rather die than live, as characterized by what I just said. Somebody who wants to commit suicide is not a coward when such extreme circumstances surround the situation and the individual. Now Huntington's disease is not the only exception, but suffering to an extreme like that is torture to the person. If you were being tortured, would you want to live or die? Exactly my point.

Also, not to exclude an important facet: Ritualistic or religious suicide. People who do such an act, such as seppuku, don't do it out of cowardice or because they couldn't handle life. They do it for honor, or religious reasons, and those people are exonerated, and possibly looked upon as heroes when they die. Samurai who committed seppuku were freed of any dishonor they got upon losing a battle. If their daimyos died, they also committed seppuku.

So in both cases, I do not see a person killing themselves a coward. They died because it was their obligation (Though others may not agree with it, but if they must do so by their code of honor or religion, so be it). And for the first reason...it's hard to comment on that. I nor you will ever understand unless you or somebody close to us was tangled in such a sad state. But really, other than the aforementioned exceptions, suicide is for cowards. Even if they were family, it would be a dishonorable way to go, and they would not be remembered well, even if their death is sad. (Or at least I wouldn't remember them well, I cannot speak for others).

This is largely an opinion, so please don't take all of what I said in verbatim.


~Bynary Fission

Emo_Saur_ 02-16-2008 10:47 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Wow, that was a very well thought out response, in the same ways I agree with you Bynary.

You are a man of many words, you must be very respected.

Kilroy_x 02-16-2008 11:06 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Suicide is always acceptable. It's a personal decision that doesn't particularly effect anyone else.

"But Kilroy! It effects loved ones by making them sad!"

It's not the responsibility of any one party to predict the feelings of others. Furthermore, shouldn't they be presumed to have control over them? If a families sadness is a deterministic effect of someones suicide, then plausibly suicide is a deterministic effect of something else. So you either have a crime without a victim or a crime without a criminal. Take your pick you worthless liberal scum.

toxicninja 02-16-2008 11:29 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I think suicide is justifiable as long as the problem that's making them want to do it isnt temporery and cant be solved, killing yourself because your girlfriend broke up with you is rediculous. while killing youself because you are very obviously psyically deformed, have been bullied all of your life and suffer from chronic depression seems reasonable. If a person really want's to kill themselves though you kind of have to wonder how bad things are for them at that point and if they'll get that bad again.

I thought that i'd felt suicidal a few times but looking back i wouldnt have gone through with it. I find it hard to understand whats going through peoples heads and how much pain they would be in if they could do it. Although sometimes people attempt suicide as a cry for help knowing that they probably wont die via the method that they used.

Corbin Wells 02-16-2008 11:35 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 2032301)
Suicide is always acceptable. It's a personal decision that doesn't particularly effect anyone else.

You truly believe suicide has no effect on anyone else the person may have known or been close to? Do you not see anything selfish with it, or do you not truly care about those you speak and converse with every day in your life? Did you even bother to take into consideration what it does to those closest to the person? Did you even bother to think of what it might do to you if someone you were really close with committed this act, or do you not seem to care at all about anyone in your life?

Kirsten926 02-16-2008 02:17 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Suicide is acceptable in some circumstances. Like if someone was in deep pain, in other words if they were very old or very sick and they knew it was over soon anyway. But for young people to commit suicide is completely pointless and selfish. I know some people have emotional issues and all but they can get help for that. No one should ever give up on life. Life is trying, life is pain, life is love, and life is work. Thats just the way it is. Thats the way it has always been and always will be.

ledwix 02-16-2008 02:21 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 2032301)
Suicide is always acceptable. It's a personal decision that doesn't particularly effect anyone else.

Suppose a family is raising a three-year old child who has decided not to live any longer because of trivial reasons. (like not getting to watch his favorite TV show) The family is looking forward to raising a successful, hardworking man. If suicide is always acceptable, then the kid presumably has the right to decide to die, even at age 3. Yet at his age, he has very few rights compared to adults. Why should he have the right to end his own life at that age when his understanding of life itself is so remedial? Wouldn't this child's suicide interfere with the rights of the parents to raise their child the way they want to?

devonin 02-16-2008 03:26 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
This thread has been cleansed. Remember kiddies, "I agree" and "I disagree" are not valid posts in CT. Provide reasons for your views. Also, using a discussion about suicide as a platform to flame/troll people is also not cool.

fuzzykoala 02-16-2008 03:43 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
What about killing yourself in order that someone else can live?
I heard that old people in Inuit tribes used to wander off into the cold when a baby was born because they didn't have the resources to support both the old and young.

moches 02-16-2008 04:18 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala (Post 2032575)
What about killing yourself in order that someone else can live?
I heard that old people in Inuit tribes used to wander off into the cold when a baby was born because they didn't have the resources to support both the old and young.

There was an article in May 2006 of Reader's Digest about a doctor who talked about the cycle of life, about how it's like plants. Old ones die so the new can come up and thrive.

Suicide is only acceptable if you already knew you would die or to save the life of another. It's called sacrifice, and it's justified. In all other cases, however, suicide is selfish and cowardly since the person is only concerned with himself rather than with other people.

devonin 02-16-2008 06:55 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

In all other cases, however, suicide is selfish and cowardly since the person is only concerned with himself rather than with other people.
Going back to Kilroy's post, there are some questions that need addressing before you can try to make this claim as though it is conclusively correct.

1) What is your basis for claiming that suicide never accounts for the feelings of other people?
2) What is your basis for claiming that being concerned with yourself is cowardly?
3) What is your basis for claiming that you are required to consider the feelings of others?

Bynary Fission 02-16-2008 08:01 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emo_Saur_ (Post 2032281)
Wow, that was a very well thought out response, in the same ways I agree with you Bynary.

You are a man of many words, you must be very respected.

Most of my posts are ignored, actually. But I thank you for reading what I have to say and reflecting upon it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 2032301)
Suicide is always acceptable. It's a personal decision that doesn't particularly effect anyone else.

"But Kilroy! It effects loved ones by making them sad!"

It's not the responsibility of any one party to predict the feelings of others. Furthermore, shouldn't they be presumed to have control over them? If a families sadness is a deterministic effect of someones suicide, then plausibly suicide is a deterministic effect of something else. So you either have a crime without a victim or a crime without a criminal. Take your pick you worthless liberal scum.

Excuse me, just because we have different opinions than you doesn't make us "worthless liberal scum". That is a stupid, ignorant statement. After all, if we didn't agree with you, could we say you were a right-wing extremist zealot if you had conservative views we didn't agree with? I think not.

And I disagree with your statement. Suicide does affect other people. If you killed yourself, would your family and friends be indifferent to your death? Would people take it the same way if their favorite TV show got canceled? No. Suicide leaves deep scars in those who love you and embrace you. They would wonder where they went wrong, why you killed yourself, and wonder if it was somehow their fault. It is a person's choice, yes. But that doesn't mean it is without consequence. If you steal, is it your choice? Yes. But does that mean it affects nobody around you, and you don't have to live with your consequences? No.



Quote:

Originally Posted by toxicninja (Post 2032328)
I think suicide is justifiable as long as the problem that's making them want to do it isnt temporery and cant be solved, killing yourself because your girlfriend broke up with you is rediculous. while killing youself because you are very obviously psyically deformed, have been bullied all of your life and suffer from chronic depression seems reasonable. If a person really want's to kill themselves though you kind of have to wonder how bad things are for them at that point and if they'll get that bad again.

I thought that i'd felt suicidal a few times but looking back i wouldnt have gone through with it. I find it hard to understand whats going through peoples heads and how much pain they would be in if they could do it. Although sometimes people attempt suicide as a cry for help knowing that they probably wont die via the method that they used.

Now I agree more with that statement. When people kill themselves, it's usually for a good reason, at least to themselves. But even if you were depressed and bullied all your life, you still should not commit suicide. This is because even those around you would be deeply affected and hurt.

I have Asperger's syndrome., I have been teased and ridiculed all my life, and I was depressed for a long time. But, guess what. My parents showed no form of emotion, and just told me to "get over it". I suffered from anxiety a lot, and the worst part is, my parents expect me to act normal, as if I didn't have the condition. You don't understand what that feels like. Only recently was I able to get past the depression and anxiety, but without notice. I thought about suicide, but I never did it. Because I knew that while things were real bad for me, it would scar and hurt those around me so much.

Somebody who commits suicide is so selfish that they didn't care who they hurt. They only wanted to do what they want without caring about those who were affected by their decision. That's why in 99.5% of cases, I look down upon suicide. I mentioned two exceptions earlier in the post I made previously. Religious or ritualistic suicide, and wanting to die under being tortured in some way. So really, when suicide is acceptable can vary from person to person, culture to culture. To me, with the two aforementioned exceptions, I look down upon suicide greatly. There is always something to live for, that should never be a reason to kill yourself.



~Bynary Fission

moches 02-16-2008 09:02 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2032765)
1) What is your basis for claiming that suicide never accounts for the feelings of other people?
2) What is your basis for claiming that being concerned with yourself is cowardly?
3) What is your basis for claiming that you are required to consider the feelings of others?

1. I never said that. In most cases, suicide is done because the person simply is depressed and feels there is no other way. If they would realize how suicide affects others around them (friends, family, etc.) then they probably wouldn't commit suicide, now would they?

2. Being concerned with yourself isn't cowardly. Being concerned with ONLY yourself is because you've reached a level where you are too scared to face the outside world, and in doing so, close up in an attempt to survive.

3. You're right on the basis that no one is required. But like my answer to question 1, if the person commiting suicide had considered the feeling of others, they wouldn't commit suicide in the first place.

arsonistsgetallthegirls 02-16-2008 09:26 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Suicide is acceptable as a last resort way out.
It's just quick death (often painless) that puts you out of your misery.

It may affect the people you know, but those people should rather you depart from this world than have you stuck here as a miserable soul. They will recover, and if they can't, they should've done more to comfort you while you were still here. If they tried everything they could, then tough ****. Life isn't fair, otherwise the you wouldn't have killed yourself to begin with.

Depressing point of view, but it should make a point.

fuzzykoala 02-16-2008 09:50 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Ok, I'm gonna go off on a tangent here because it's something that's been on my mind lately. If you don't agree with the assumptions that I'm making here (I don't think they're controversial), just go with it and judge my line of reasoning on its own merits. Also there's a bunch of factors involved so bear with me here.

Everything that we comes out of nature. It is easiest to think about in terms of energy. To simplify, globally we consume about 30% more than the Earth can regenerate a year. Everywhere in the world, people are consuming more and more energy per capita while the population increases. Unless there is a technological miracle that happens, ultimately not only will there not be enough energy for everyone, but the environment will have degraded to the point where it is not possible to support a population even near to the
achieved maximum.

The two factors involved with this problem are the size of the population and the amount of resources/energy consumed per capita.

I am also going to assume that people should have a reasonably equal chance to advance themselves in life and be able to achieve a respectable and relatively existence. I personally don't think that it's fair that I should have the chance to do anything I want with my life if it means that some kid in x number of countries has to work 16 hours a day in a sweatshop without any hope of doing anything else.

Ok. Now the question is what to do if I want to consider myself a moral person.

The most obvious answer that we as western society is overtly pursuing is to bring all those other people up to our standard of living. The problem with this is that consumption will continue to increase unabated, resulting in the problem described above - and the ugly ugly deaths of billions of people.

Another possible solution is to reduce the amount that we consume. By we, I mean the wealthy developed world. If we want to be fair about it, some people that have calculated the maximum possible amount of productive land have estimated that there's enough space for everyone to use 2.2 hectares. People in the developed world tend to use about 10. That represents a significant drop in standard of living. Is there a point when lowering the level of consumption makes life no longer worth living?

If we answer yes to that question, that leads us to the problem of lowering the population. Now, the methods for this are either controlling the population by limiting how many kids people can have, or straight up killing them. Since the population of the first world is declining, it stands to reason that it makes sense to control places where the population is increasing. However, since these people are living in places where they generally consume much less per person, and therefore killing one person in the first world would have more of an effect than a bunch of poor people.

Therefore, should I kill myself in the interest of giving someone else the chance to use the resources I would otherwise consume more effectively and sustainably? How can I justify destroying the futures of untold generations of children and the hopes of the developing world by shortsightedly destroying the environment by maintaining a lifestyle that I think is worth living? If I am the only one who kills myself is it a pointless gesture?

I'm sorry that this isn't directly related to the topic, but I'd like to know what someone else thinks about all this.

dore 02-16-2008 10:19 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala (Post 2032964)
If I am the only one who kills myself is it a pointless gesture?

Yes, which pretty much makes the entire point moot. :)

Bynary Fission 02-16-2008 10:21 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala (Post 2032964)
Ok, I'm gonna go off on a tangent here because it's something that's been on my mind lately. If you don't agree with the assumptions that I'm making here (I don't think they're controversial), just go with it and judge my line of reasoning on its own merits. Also there's a bunch of factors involved so bear with me here.

Everything that we comes out of nature. It is easiest to think about in terms of energy. To simplify, globally we consume about 30% more than the Earth can regenerate a year. Everywhere in the world, people are consuming more and more energy per capita while the population increases. Unless there is a technological miracle that happens, ultimately not only will there not be enough energy for everyone, but the environment will have degraded to the point where it is not possible to support a population even near to the
achieved maximum.

The two factors involved with this problem are the size of the population and the amount of resources/energy consumed per capita.

I am also going to assume that people should have a reasonably equal chance to advance themselves in life and be able to achieve a respectable and relatively existence. I personally don't think that it's fair that I should have the chance to do anything I want with my life if it means that some kid in x number of countries has to work 16 hours a day in a sweatshop without any hope of doing anything else.

Ok. Now the question is what to do if I want to consider myself a moral person.

The most obvious answer that we as western society is overtly pursuing is to bring all those other people up to our standard of living. The problem with this is that consumption will continue to increase unabated, resulting in the problem described above - and the ugly ugly deaths of billions of people.

Another possible solution is to reduce the amount that we consume. By we, I mean the wealthy developed world. If we want to be fair about it, some people that have calculated the maximum possible amount of productive land have estimated that there's enough space for everyone to use 2.2 hectares. People in the developed world tend to use about 10. That represents a significant drop in standard of living. Is there a point when lowering the level of consumption makes life no longer worth living?

If we answer yes to that question, that leads us to the problem of lowering the population. Now, the methods for this are either controlling the population by limiting how many kids people can have, or straight up killing them. Since the population of the first world is declining, it stands to reason that it makes sense to control places where the population is increasing. However, since these people are living in places where they generally consume much less per person, and therefore killing one person in the first world would have more of an effect than a bunch of poor people.

Therefore, should I kill myself in the interest of giving someone else the chance to use the resources I would otherwise consume more effectively and sustainably? How can I justify destroying the futures of untold generations of children and the hopes of the developing world by shortsightedly destroying the environment by maintaining a lifestyle that I think is worth living? If I am the only one who kills myself is it a pointless gesture?

I'm sorry that this isn't directly related to the topic, but I'd like to know what someone else thinks about all this.

If you are the only one who kills yourself, yes, it is a waste. After all, animals and humans use resources that are overused or not. But animals don't kill themselves over it. So why should we? Who says that you can't give back and help improve the quality of living for all? The only way we can improve the quality of life for others and possibly help create or promote new ways of generating energy is by living, in turn using energy.

Yes, many areas of the world are using more resources than can be replenished. Yes, we have severe issues with overbuilding in many areas of the world. But considering we are a sentient, intelligent race that goes through periods of growth and intellectual Renaissances, we are bound to eventually take up more than can be used. However, we are also discovering new methods of using energy, and possibly even new energy sources. It takes time for this to be developed, and if the people who researched this killed themselves to stop using energy, we would end up being far worse off with them dead then them being alive.

Have you ever heard of a Dyson Sphere? It is a spherical object that would encompass an entire star to harness it for energy. This is highly theoretical, but maybe possible in a few hundred years from now given the rate of technological advancement. And what about colonies in near-space? They can run off of 100% solar energy, which is virtually unlimited. And don't forget about using antimatter as a possible energy source. The technology for it is very far off, but it may be available within the next 30-50 years. The only way to do this is to go through years and years of building, research, and energy expenditure.

My point is, is that we cannot harness energy without using it. You can't make money without spending money. And you can't make friends without being one. All the same principles apply here. Killing yourself because you use energy is a WASTE. Animals have to use energy to live. So do we. While you may have noble intentions, you won't do a single d*** thing for humanity. Now if billions of people decided to do the act, then you'll make an impact. But until you can influence a billion people to do so, that is not a viable topic. If you go, you'll save 1/7000000000th of the energy used by humans. That will make no difference. So live your life, do good, and be part of the solution, not the problem. Then, you will have made more of an effect in life then you ever could in death.


~Bynary Fission

KlingPosnot 02-16-2008 10:58 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I personally don't think that suicide is acceptable in most situations normally thought as associated with the act (depression related suicides). I feel there are situations in which it is forced upon people, or chosen by them as a means to save a life, as stated in prior posts, that can be counted as a justified act...The main thing that anyone thinking about going through with it needs to know, is that others will be hurt no matter how trivial your life may seem...I can say right now I have known 7 friends who have committed suicide...all of them with their own reasons (2 of them were just because they got themselves into a situation in which their death ultimately came out as a byproduct)...It really gets to me when my friends decide living in this world isn't worth it (and many times it has made me ask the question of whether or not it truly is)...I would say that fuzzykoala's example of the Inuits sacrificing themselves so that others may live describes the only way I could accept someone's reasoning for suicide.

fuzzykoala 02-16-2008 11:21 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Well Bynary, you're a lot more optimistic when it comes to the future of the species than I am, but that's neither here nor there. All I'll say in response is that pretty much every great civilization has fallen apart and that we're on pretty thin ice at the moment.
You definitely make a good point when it comes to suicide though and (upon reflection) the problem I present is really an impersonal one.
This is reaching a little bit to illustrate my point, but I remember reading somewhere that when the Nazis were moving Jews to the death camps, they sometimes threw loaves of bread into the train cars where the prisoners would fight and kill each other over them because they were so hungry.
What if I find myself in a situation where I either can kill someone else to survive or let them have what I need? Should I let my animal nature assert itself or rather abstain in order to keep from doing moral wrong? Obviously whoever survives in the end will be able to say that they were in the right, but is it morally acceptable? How can we choose who lives and who dies?

Bynary Fission 02-16-2008 11:43 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala (Post 2033080)
What if I find myself in a situation where I either can kill someone else to survive or let them have what I need?

Well...if that person has a future ahead of him, and you've gotten to live at least half of your life, let him live. Say, if you were 45 and the guy next to you was 21. You both were starving, and if you didn't eat soon you would die. If someone was to die, let him live. You got to live a good amount of your life, and it was time for you to go. But he didn't get that opportunity. He deserves to live and experience life. He deserves to marry, to experience love, to experience sadness and death, and to see so much. You have gotten to do all that, but that man didn't. Let him live, let him have a future. Then, even in death, you will have made so much of a difference. Who knows, that person could become the next great civil rights leader.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala (Post 2033080)
Should I let my animal nature assert itself or rather abstain in order to keep from doing moral wrong?

Well...if you are deeply religious, then you feel the obligation that God does not want you to kill yourself. But otherwise, if certain death is imminent, then perhaps killing yourself would be the best option. But consider it carefully. You might be rescued at the last moment, a la Titanic survivors. But if you are suffering, and you have no chance to live (e.g The Jews in the death camps), then yes. Relieve your suffering, for a person should not have to endure the psychological torture of waiting for your death, and the physical torture of starvation, etc. This is one of the two exceptions I mentioned earlier on acceptable suicide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala (Post 2033080)
Obviously whoever survives in the end will be able to say that they were in the right, but is it morally acceptable? How can we choose who lives and who dies?

Like I stated earlier, the person who has the most of a future ahead of him would deserve to live. Do you know what happened when Mao Zedong came to power? He ordered that China's best and brightest slaughtered, to purge China of the 'old order'. This left the country in shambles. But those who would not have made any difference lived. Did it help? No. If you feel that you have nothing to live for, but your fellow man does, then it would be noble to sacrifice yourself for the greater good.

And concerning the ethics of suicide...if you are obligated to do it, by religion, your code of honor, or other such ethics, then you would probably do so. It is hard to say whether it is right or wrong. This is different from person to person. I don't perceive it as 'wrong', but I don't look at it in a positive light either. With the exceptions of some form of torture, and religion/codes of honor, then suicide is for the weak and the cowardly. Others would probably look down upon you if you committed suicide, thus, in a sense, making it "wrong". But it is up to you concerning the ethics of suicide. If it is wrong to you, don't do it. If not, then do so under the conditions you believe warrant suicide.


~Bynary Fission

fuzzykoala 02-17-2008 12:03 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Thanks man. That takes a weight off my shoulders. The only questions I have left are what is an acceptable level of consumption and where is the best place to spend my energy but I don't think those answers are so easy to come by. Thinking about this so much is starting to make me wonder why I'm so concerned with being moral in the first place. Reciprocity and hope I guess. Oh well.
Thanks again!

Bynary Fission 02-17-2008 12:08 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzykoala (Post 2033151)
Thanks man. That takes a weight off my shoulders. The only questions I have left are what is an acceptable level of consumption and where is the best place to spend my energy but I don't think those answers are so easy to come by. Thinking about this so much is starting to make me wonder why I'm so concerned with being moral in the first place. Reciprocity and hope I guess. Oh well.
Thanks again!

No problem. It's my pleasure to help solve issues you may have. :)

Well, consumption is inevitable. We live, therefore we consume to exist. But acceptable levels can vary. If you are a tree-hugging vegan hippie who is a senior member of PETA (No offense PETA members), then you'll be living in the forest. But other than that, it's really up to you to decide an acceptable level of resource consumption. If you consume a lot, help out. Plant some trees. Get a low-flush toilet. And recycle.

Personally, as long as you aren't wasteful, then you are consuming an acceptable amount of resources. After all, what isn't wasted is not depleted, and can be used by others who need it. If you really want to help, do what I mentioned previously, and find ways to conserve and recycle. With any luck, you'll almost break even. But don't feel guilty if you consume more than you think is acceptable, because we all have to consume resources to live. If you don't waste materials, then they will get time to replenish. Then, you will have broken even, and you will not have destroyed anything. Nature is built to take some pretty nasty stuff. Using a few sheets of paper, or taking a bath is fine. Just as long as you don't waste.


~Bynary Fission

EDIT: Being moral is fine. In fact, it can give you a reason to live, thus preventing suicide in the first place. Those who are moral can be a true blessing to those around you. They conserve, they are kind, and treat others with the respect they deserve. And that is a truly redeeming person, don't you think? Your morals are good and true, from what I see. Just don't think extremes, like if you kill yourself, you'll be helping others. Then you end up harming others.

P.S 100th post, wewt. :D

Kilroy_x 02-17-2008 12:54 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbin Wells (Post 2032333)
You truly believe suicide has no effect on anyone else the person may have known or been close to?

It doesn't have to have such an effect.

Quote:

Do you not see anything selfish with it, or do you not truly care about those you speak and converse with every day in your life?
This sentence presumes its own conclusion.

Quote:

Did you even bother to take into consideration what it does to those closest to the person?
As does this one.

Quote:

Did you even bother to think of what it might do to you if someone you were really close with committed this act, or do you not seem to care at all about anyone in your life?
You're bad at arguing

Quote:

Originally Posted by ledwix (Post 2032470)
Suppose a family is raising a three-year old child who has decided not to live any longer because of trivial reasons. (like not getting to watch his favorite TV show) The family is looking forward to raising a successful, hardworking man. If suicide is always acceptable, then the kid presumably has the right to decide to die, even at age 3. Yet at his age, he has very few rights compared to adults. Why should he have the right to end his own life at that age when his understanding of life itself is so remedial? Wouldn't this child's suicide interfere with the rights of the parents to raise their child the way they want to?

The parents have no such right. The child has a right to end their life because, quite tritely, it's theirs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission (Post 2032824)
Excuse me, just because we have different opinions than you doesn't make us "worthless liberal scum".

Maybe it does to me!

Quote:

That is a stupid, ignorant statement. After all, if we didn't agree with you, could we say you were a right-wing extremist zealot if you had conservative views we didn't agree with? I think not.
You think wrong then. A tongue in cheek insult tacked on to the end of a valid argument does not make the argument invalid.

Quote:

And I disagree with your statement. Suicide does affect other people. If you killed yourself, would your family and friends be indifferent to your death?
How should I know? I addressed this in my initial post, by the way. It always amazes me how I do that, yet no one catches it.

Quote:

Would people take it the same way if their favorite TV show got canceled?
Some would!

Quote:

Suicide leaves deep scars in those who love you and embrace you.
Maybe they leave deep scars in themselves.

Quote:

They would wonder where they went wrong, why you killed yourself, and wonder if it was somehow their fault.
And is wonder somehow beyond their control?

Quote:

It is a person's choice, yes. But that doesn't mean it is without consequence.
The consequence would seem to be death. The consequence of death would seem to be to make individuals associated with the dead aware of the death. From there, things would seem to get less deterministic.

Bynary Fission 02-17-2008 02:10 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 2033211)
It doesn't have to have such an effect.



This sentence presumes its own conclusion.



As does this one.



You're bad at arguing



The parents have no such right. The child has a right to end their life because, quite tritely, it's theirs.



Maybe it does to me!



You think wrong then. A tongue in cheek insult tacked on to the end of a valid argument does not make the argument invalid.



How should I know? I addressed this in my initial post, by the way. It always amazes me how I do that, yet no one catches it.



Some would!



Maybe they leave deep scars in themselves.



And is wonder somehow beyond their control?



The consequence would seem to be death. The consequence of death would seem to be to make individuals associated with the dead aware of the death. From there, things would seem to get less deterministic.

From what I'm getting, you are saying suicide has no consequences, and that if you wanna do it, do it, regardless of who it hurts. You also seem to say that people can't influence suicide, and that people can hurt whoever they ant through suicide. Frankly, you have some flawed reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 2033211)
You're bad at arguing

If you say people are bad at arguing when they rebut what you say, then you shouldn't be in the CT forum.


~Bynary Fission

Revolversaid 02-17-2008 02:30 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Well...to put it philosophically who are you trying to get acceptance from? Why should someones acceptance effect your own personal choice and control over your own life? If your suicide is acceptable to one person it may not be acceptable to another. Suicide is truly acceptable however if the person who engages in the act accepts it. After all suicide is one of the choices that does not requires anybody else's acceptance.

"The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways--I to die, and you to live. Which to the better fate is known only to God." Socrates

Kilroy_x 02-17-2008 10:20 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission (Post 2033277)
From what I'm getting, you are saying suicide has no consequences, and that if you wanna do it, do it, regardless of who it hurts. You also seem to say that people can't influence suicide, and that people can hurt whoever they ant through suicide. Frankly, you have some flawed reasoning.

No, I'm saying this

Quote:

"But Kilroy! It effects loved ones by making them sad!"

It's not the responsibility of any one party to predict the feelings of others. Furthermore, shouldn't they be presumed to have control over them? If a families sadness is a deterministic effect of someones suicide, then plausibly suicide is a deterministic effect of something else. So you either have a crime without a victim or a crime without a criminal.

Quote:

If you say people are bad at arguing when they rebut what you say, then you shouldn't be in the CT forum.

The rebuttals given were "How do you account for that being false?" Those aren't actual rebuttals, because they presume their own conclusion.

Tarrik 02-24-2008 05:43 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
From what i can read, most people are saying that suicide is selfish, it hurts the ones around you etc, etc. Well here's my opinion.

Suicide is ALWAYS acceptable. The people who actually kill themselves are not just "taking the easy way out" they are escaping their problems, usually these problems are big and are not small things like..Too much homework..no friends..you know, small things. These people who kill themselves actually have problems and for everyone to say its selfish and stuff don't know what the hell they're talking about. Me, i have a pretty severe case of depression, yes I've thought of killing myself, yes it's on my mind now..do i have problems? YES, not small ones either. I'm getting kicked out of home if i don't "get over it" parents don't care much about anything to do with me anymore, siblings couldn't give two ****'s, failed school, and pushed all my friends away..yeah i know stupid things..but think hard about all i've said. May not seem like much to you, but it's not happening to you, so think hard before your next post.

P.S I gave up on the FFR community, because i was actually going to go get help so i don't kill myself (thats directed to you Denovin, so don't just assume I'd come back if you don't know why I'm leaving).

And that everyone is what i think.

~Tarrik~

[TeRa] 02-24-2008 05:45 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I've considered suicide multiple times, after dropping out, and thinking of the future, I know mine's going to suck, and I don't see any reason to stick around, but I talk myself out of it within a week. I never really attempted suicide, yet at least.

I feel if you believe your life is horrible enough to the point where you dont want to live anymore, whatever. But as ledwix said, a 3 year old doing it due to not being able to watch TV, thats adds a challenege to this topic.

So, here is how I see it. As a teen, I think this is the age where most people consider suicide. I can't even think of anyone 12 and below considering it, and I people consider it around the older age's due to stress from work, or stress from not having a job and being a falure, such as the road I see myself going down. I can't explain how I feel on the topic of suicide to much, being I've considered it, but I know I can't push myself to ever do it, no matter how bad things are, and from thinking of where my future is going because I dropped out of school, gets me in that depressed state where I start to consider suicide. I don't see it really being other peoples business as to wether or not someone does commit suicide or not, but I guess it all depends on the situation, something silly such as a 3 year not being able to watch a TV is just a flat out stupid reason, but something such as a 20 year old that dropped out and is heading toward living on the streets with severe depression and is being rejected has a more understandable reason.

tha Guardians 02-24-2008 06:22 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission (Post 2032162)
In most cases, suicide is for the weak. For example, if a junkie gets AIDS from using a tainted needle when getting a hit of smack, then it's his fault. If somebody embezzles people and steals, yet bad fortune befalls him and he goes broke, and possibly caught, it's his fault. Those who commit suicide are cowards. They cannot face up to what they have done, and want an easy way out. The world would be better off without them.

But there is an exception, at least in my eyes. Have you ever heard of Huntington's Disease? It is characterized by a slow slip into dementia, it causes speech impairments, and extreme, shooting pain all across the body constantly. You linger for 10-15 years before you finally die. I once saw a moving documentary on a mother who lost her sons and father to this disease. Her father died after 15 years of developing the disease. She killed two of her sons after they screamed and begged for mercy, for her to kill them after suffering for years with this disease. She eventually did it. It was ruled assisted suicide, and she got 5 years, but served a 1/3 of it. She was not looked upon as a monster for what she did, in fact it caused a stir, and people went outside the courthouse protesting her punishment.

To be honest, that is a fate worse than death. Somebody with such a disease would rather die than live, as characterized by what I just said. Somebody who wants to commit suicide is not a coward when such extreme circumstances surround the situation and the individual. Now Huntington's disease is not the only exception, but suffering to an extreme like that is torture to the person. If you were being tortured, would you want to live or die? Exactly my point.

Also, not to exclude an important facet: Ritualistic or religious suicide. People who do such an act, such as seppuku, don't do it out of cowardice or because they couldn't handle life. They do it for honor, or religious reasons, and those people are exonerated, and possibly looked upon as heroes when they die. Samurai who committed seppuku were freed of any dishonor they got upon losing a battle. If their daimyos died, they also committed seppuku.

So in both cases, I do not see a person killing themselves a coward. They died because it was their obligation (Though others may not agree with it, but if they must do so by their code of honor or religion, so be it). And for the first reason...it's hard to comment on that. I nor you will ever understand unless you or somebody close to us was tangled in such a sad state. But really, other than the aforementioned exceptions, suicide is for cowards. Even if they were family, it would be a dishonorable way to go, and they would not be remembered well, even if their death is sad. (Or at least I wouldn't remember them well, I cannot speak for others).

This is largely an opinion, so please don't take all of what I said in verbatim.


~Bynary Fission



Yes, but what if someone wishes not to live for reasons that are not their fault, or for carelessness. What if some teenage girl's parents beat her, and she's never once been happy in her life. Now would that be impatience or exhaustion?

Or what if someone never really cared about life? What if they saw it as a waste of time, and didn't think it was worth it? Then what would you thing?

kommisar[os] 02-24-2008 11:19 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
it's your life. do what you want with it. suicide is just another choice you make weather it be for good reason or by stupidity. Nobody else can make that choice for you.

funmonkey54 02-24-2008 11:42 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I believe that this wrong under all circumstances. When you take your own life you cause pain and suffering to the people around you. this is a self-centered and terrible thing to do. I believe that there is love in everyone. Everyone has somebody that they love. This person will most likely be the most effected by suicide. would you want that person to go through such an immense amount of pain and anguish that they may even consider making the same choice.

There is help for anything that you go through and therefore no reason for this. for example. say you were just dumped. you think life is over and it will never change. you consider suicide. this is ridiculous. even though you are in pain and are suffering with what is happening at this very moment there are others who have been dumped that can help you deal with it. approach the people that you know have suffered from the loss of a loved one or a girlfriend. ask them how they managed to get through it. this is free guidance that will help you deal with the loss.

after you have finished finding out how to deal with it pick yourself up and find someone else.

I believe there is always another way. suicide is unacceptable.

OnixRose 02-24-2008 11:43 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I don't know if I should post here or not(I also didn't read the other posts) but, just as someone can basically make his or her self ill psychologically, keep in mind who ever it is controls his or her thoughts

[TeRa] 02-24-2008 11:47 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OnixRose (Post 2043461)
I don't know if I should post here or not(I also didn't read the other posts) but, just as someone can basically make his or her self ill psychologically, keep in mind who ever it is controls his or her thoughts

People are not always in their right state of mind though, and do not always control their own mind pretty for the most part.

arsonistsgetallthegirls 02-24-2008 11:49 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I want to get back on topic for a second, because this bothered me when I reread this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission (Post 2032162)
In most cases, suicide is for the weak.

It takes a hell of a lot of courage to kill yourself.
Dying by your own hand, to escape the plights of this world, despite how people say "suicide is punishable by eternal damnation" and "There is nothing on the other side" is showing some serious strength.

People who kill themselves are in my eyes, only a tad less courageous than people who run back in to burning buildings to save infants.

arsonistsgetallthegirls 02-24-2008 11:59 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Forgive the double post, this is a different topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by funmonkey54 (Post 2043460)
I believe that this wrong under all circumstances. When you take your own life you cause pain and suffering to the people around you. this is a self-centered and terrible thing to do. I believe that there is love in everyone. Everyone has somebody that they love. This person will most likely be the most effected by suicide. would you want that person to go through such an immense amount of pain and anguish that they may even consider making the same choice.

I believe there is always another way. suicide is unacceptable.

What if there isn't another way?
What if you have agonizing pain due to a inoperable brain tumor (far stretch, I know), but the doctors say you still have 5 months to live? (assuming you aren't a vegetable)
Is it still necessary just to wait it out because suicide is unacceptable?

devonin 02-24-2008 01:44 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Is it still necessary just to wait it out because suicide is unacceptable?
What I'd want to say to people who lean towards "yes" would be that the reason Euthenasia has its own word, and isn't just called suicide is that it is generally understood that the circumstances are different enough that many people would want a way to accept one without tacitly accepting the other, thus the second term.

If we leave suicide as seperate and distinct from euthenasia, does that change anybody's mind who was defending the acceptability of suicide? Does it change the mind of anyone who wasn't defending it?

tsugomaru 02-24-2008 01:51 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by [TeRa] (Post 2043463)
People are not always in their right state of mind though, and do not always control their own mind pretty for the most part.

What would you say would be the "right state" of mind. People who conform to made up standards made by made up ideal people?

I personally think that people who decide to commit suicide have justified their reasons in ways that make sense to them, they may not make sense to everyone else, but that doesn't matter. People don't commit suicide and make sure everyone understands why he would do it.

~Tsugomaru

devonin 02-24-2008 01:55 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

I personally think that people who decide to commit suicide have justified their reasons in ways that make sense to them, they may not make sense to everyone else, but that doesn't matter. People don't commit suicide and make sure everyone understands why he would do it.
But is it enough to justify your motives to only yourself? Someone who murders having completely justified the act in their own mind are still held accountable by the existing laws against murder, unless their reasoning happens to coincide with the accepted justifications (Self-defense etc)

tsugomaru 02-24-2008 01:56 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
It would seem so. The ones who try to justify it to others are seeking for attention and have no intent to commit suicide if they get what they want.

~Tsugomaru

Mezo 02-24-2008 02:26 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I wandered across... and I think I shall add to this.

We can always consider the events and feelings that can cause one to want to commit suicide, but try thinking about what the results would be to the person. We do most anything in order to benefit ourselves in some way, whether it be to feel pleasure, satisfaction, revenge,etc... or even some sort of feeling of being a hero (for those who have become martyrs) ... but the thing about death is that after we are dead, we can't benefit at all from these feelings or actually from anything anymore. People want to die in order to escape pain or in order to help another, but they pretty much don't know what is going to happen after that (unless u are a devout believer in heaven or hell or any other form of after-life).

Many seem to believe that when we die we will then be at peace and be able to think "hey, I'm not in pain anymore. this is great" or be able to look down upon the world after death and say "hey, I'm a hero. I did a good thing by sacrificing myself to save that baby." No one knows what happens after death, but I still don't think we will be conscious of anything and would actually be able to think of our lives... but maybe we can; who knows. This could be why so many people want to be remembered after death; it's almost as if they think their reputation will stay with them personally after death.

Another point is that people may want to die in order to help others; this is a noble act, but it only applies to you personally if you are alive. When you are dead you will not even have the ability to care about others (again, I might be wrong... if angels do exist ;P ) so, if u die sacrificing yourself, but you aren't able to save the baby, I don't think it will matter to you anyway; you'll be dead... no more emotions to even bother you. Sure the family of the baby will be sad and your friends and family will be sad, but you're dead... you won't care. I mean, if you say that suicide is very selfish, you are right... but most anything we do is to benefit us in some way, whether it be emotionally or physically. One could just as well run away from their problems and go live in a mountain and not kill themselves, but still cause as much emotional torment for friends and family.

When we can't handle our own emotions or physical pain we might sometimes turn to the idea of suicide.I know it sounds all selfish, but death is an escape from responsibility... just, it's not a wise decision to kill yourself if you think it will cause the pain to go away, because pain only exists if there is pleasure, and pleasure goes away too once you die. It makes me wonder what it must feel like to not exist as a conscious mix of body and mind. maybe you become one with the universe ;)... or maybe u just die and become dirt lol.

We, as humans, are probably the only species (on earth) who even ponders about death. Where we go after we die is an answer that evades us, so we make up a bunch of different ideas that could be plausible. (heaven, hell, purgatory, next life, etc) Since we only know about living, we relate death to some form of living... that is one reason why suicide seems to be a plausible way to escape pain. Suicide pretty much goes against natural instinct for survival, but we (and even certain animals) seem to do it anyway either to help species or survival or for no reason at all beyond personal reasons (that I can see) Death is a pretty scary thing and we are hardwired to avoid it... but we all know we will die one day anyway... so if a person makes a conscious decision to kill themselves, then I wouldn't say it is wrong. It is another decision, just the last one a person will ever make...

sry for the long post... I just have lots of ideas, just no one around here (school) who wants to argue about death with me :/ . such a depressing topic it is lol

ledwix 02-24-2008 02:38 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I don't see how suicide is courageous. I understand it takes a lot of "courage" to suicide, because of all the pressure mounting, but wouldn't it take a lot more real courage to suck it up and move on with one's life? People usually call people who face their problems and get around them courageous, not people who run away from them forever. It's much easier to inject some cyanide into an apple and eat it or steer toward a concrete wall while driving on the freeway than it is to solve one's major problems in life.

Saying suicide is always acceptable is saying people should reserve the right to suicide within their judgment. But if people have the right to suicide, then, IMO, there should be some sort of age requirement. (not that most suicidal people can make good decisions about this kind of thing, as it is) Like I alluded to before, a young child is too ignorant and naive to make major decisions about his/her life. Isn't this what parents are for: instilling objectives and moral values into their kids?

I'd guess it simply depends on whether we think anyone should have the right to end anyone's life, or whether we believe there's some kind of fate or grand scheme of things. In many cases, people believe people don't have the right to end another person's life at will; its murderous. In others, it's not.

Mezo 02-24-2008 02:51 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
an age requirement for suicide ... maybe. nah that would just encourage the idea and make it seem like a normal thing to do... though other countries have euthanasia as a pretty normal and legal option. so I don't know. People should be allowed to do wut they want, but people are also stupid so we need to set laws for ourselves that are sposed to make sure we don't do more stupid things. Some people would kill and rape for no reason and kill themselves if they couldn't get the last popsicle from the freezer. Not everyone is as morally and mentally developed as some of the fine posters on this site ;)

here's an interesting wiki on moral development. Some people never seem to get past the first stages, even when they are adults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlber...al_development

frickfrock99 03-8-2008 09:48 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
lol

sjoecool1991 03-10-2008 08:51 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynary Fission (Post 2032162)
In most cases, suicide is for the weak. For example, if a junkie gets AIDS from using a tainted needle when getting a hit of smack, then it's his fault. If somebody embezzles people and steals, yet bad fortune befalls him and he goes broke, and possibly caught, it's his fault. Those who commit suicide are cowards. They cannot face up to what they have done, and want an easy way out. The world would be better off without them.

But there is an exception, at least in my eyes. Have you ever heard of Huntington's Disease? It is characterized by a slow slip into dementia, it causes speech impairments, and extreme, shooting pain all across the body constantly. You linger for 10-15 years before you finally die. I once saw a moving documentary on a mother who lost her sons and father to this disease. Her father died after 15 years of developing the disease. She killed two of her sons after they screamed and begged for mercy, for her to kill them after suffering for years with this disease. She eventually did it. It was ruled assisted suicide, and she got 5 years, but served a 1/3 of it. She was not looked upon as a monster for what she did, in fact it caused a stir, and people went outside the courthouse protesting her punishment.

To be honest, that is a fate worse than death. Somebody with such a disease would rather die than live, as characterized by what I just said. Somebody who wants to commit suicide is not a coward when such extreme circumstances surround the situation and the individual. Now Huntington's disease is not the only exception, but suffering to an extreme like that is torture to the person. If you were being tortured, would you want to live or die? Exactly my point.

Also, not to exclude an important facet: Ritualistic or religious suicide. People who do such an act, such as seppuku, don't do it out of cowardice or because they couldn't handle life. They do it for honor, or religious reasons, and those people are exonerated, and possibly looked upon as heroes when they die. Samurai who committed seppuku were freed of any dishonor they got upon losing a battle. If their daimyos died, they also committed seppuku.

So in both cases, I do not see a person killing themselves a coward. They died because it was their obligation (Though others may not agree with it, but if they must do so by their code of honor or religion, so be it). And for the first reason...it's hard to comment on that. I nor you will ever understand unless you or somebody close to us was tangled in such a sad state. But really, other than the aforementioned exceptions, suicide is for cowards. Even if they were family, it would be a dishonorable way to go, and they would not be remembered well, even if their death is sad. (Or at least I wouldn't remember them well, I cannot speak for others).

This is largely an opinion, so please don't take all of what I said in verbatim.


~Bynary Fission

Huntington's Disease usually does not develop until later in your life though.
It is rare for symptoms to start showing before you are even 50.
It is also a genetic disease.
My grandmother has it.
And I am pretty sure my father does as well.
Guess what the means?


And no, I will not commit suicide.

devonin 03-10-2008 08:56 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

And no, I will not commit suicide.
Like everyone in relative good health and a good mental state, you cannot possibly know how you might feel decades from now, suffering through intense and terminal pain.

Frozen Beat 03-10-2008 08:58 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
You guys all got a point. However, the average human will only believe what they want to, and a human's beliefs as an individual, is for themselves, and who will understand? If they believe that they will go to heaven, it is probably what the want to believe. If they want to believe that they're doing a good deed, that is what they'll believe, and.

Suicide...one thing that humans fear, loathe, hate, and yet. Come to accomplish for their own decision. Sick.

devonin 03-10-2008 09:17 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I'm finding it difficult to unpack exactly what you're trying to get at here, you're a little unclear in your phrasing, could you reiterate?

The impression that I'm getting is you're arguing for the claim that people make their own decisions entirely independantly in a way that can't be understood by anybody else? That a person's reasoning for why they hold a belief can't be communicated to someone else in a way that lets them comprehend it?

I'm really not sure I can support that. There are enough things intrinsic to all people to give us a medium of communication to explain why we believe how we believe.

As to your last claim, I don't think you can speak absolutely like that. I don't fear suicide, I don't loathe suicide, and I don't hate suicide, and yet I'm human. I suspect there are others (Like everybody speaking in support of acceptable circumstances to justify suicide) who feel the same way.

You can say that someone who kills themselves is sick in the sense of unwell, on the grounds that the drive to survive is intrinsic to a properly functioning living human, and if someone loses the will to live, that they must be unwell in some capacity, but I get the impression that you were using 'sick' in the 'disgusting' sense, and I don't really think I can support that.

Frozen Beat 03-10-2008 09:33 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Lol. Lets put it this way. Who wants suicide?

sjoecool1991 03-10-2008 09:35 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2065972)
Like everyone in relative good health and a good mental state, you cannot possibly know how you might feel decades from now, suffering through intense and terminal pain.

my grandmother never wanted to commit suicide, and she has lived with it for a long time now.

operationstrawbarry 03-10-2008 09:43 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Bottom Line:

There is always 2 sides to a story. All opinions are correct (In many cases), but the fact is, you can still get arrested for assisting to help someone suicide if they wanted you're help. Its still considered murder but in an assistant lv. So its a loose loose situation. Wheather you think its acceptable or not, you will still be helping to take a life away and it just depends if you can either get away with it or if you could suffer through feeling guilty about taking someone's life away. This all changes if its a direct order from a high authority (not god), or if there is permisson. If not, then the morality is a lot more complex and its wheather you want to cope with the results at the end. I would never assist someone to suicide and even if I had permission, I would never do it.

my 2cent.

devonin 03-11-2008 12:44 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Beat
Lol. Lets put it this way. Who wants suicide?

People who feel that death is preferable to their current standard of life. People with clinical depression that gets too severe or goes unmedicated, people suffering from painful terminal illness, people facing the liklihood of brain death. There are people, and not just crazy people. Personally if there were a legal way to assert such, I would leave instructions with my family to euthenize me in the event that I suffered permanant loss of brain function. I don't think I'm sick, I don't think I'm crazy, I don't think there is anything hateful or loathesome about wanting to avoid that situation.

Quote:

my grandmother never wanted to commit suicide, and she has lived with it for a long time now.
So? One anecdotal case doesn't prove or disprove anything. You aren't your grandmother, I'm not you're grandmother. Neither of us can -guarentee- that we would react in that situation in the same way your grandmother did. Perhaps she has a strong will, perhaps she believes that suicide will damn her to hell, I don't know, because I don't know her or her beliefs. But one case doesn't prove the whole.

Izzi 04-2-2008 07:47 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I think people should have the right to end their own life if they are in their right state of mind. Shouldn't be an option under the influence of drugs or alcohol though. If anyones read the giver that had an interesting way of letting people do that.

Lipidman 04-2-2008 09:25 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2043576)
But is it enough to justify your motives to only yourself? Someone who murders having completely justified the act in their own mind are still held accountable by the existing laws against murder, unless their reasoning happens to coincide with the accepted justifications (Self-defense etc)

But is that really a fair comparison? You're life is your own, but murder is taking the life of someone else, that which isn't yours to claim.

devonin 04-2-2008 12:54 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
The defense was "I can justify my motives to myself, which should make it acceptable" and I simply pointed out "You can justify all kinds of things to yourself, which doesn't make them acceptable, why should this be an exception?"

I was waiting for a response from Tsugo that never came.

I have no fundamental problem with people killing themselves as long as by so doing they aren't screwing over any dependants.

devonin 04-2-2008 09:53 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Except I mean it in the literal official sense. I could care less if your suicide makes your best friend really sad. What I care about is if you have a child who is financially dependant on you for survival etc.

When I say "A dependant" I mean it in the sense of "Depends on you for having their basic life necessaties met" If someone is going to starve, or become homeless because you killed yourself, I have a problem with it. If they just care about you a lot, that's your decision to inflict it on them or not.

Lipidman 04-3-2008 03:02 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2101059)
The defense was "I can justify my motives to myself, which should make it acceptable" and I simply pointed out "You can justify all kinds of things to yourself, which doesn't make them acceptable, why should this be an exception?"

But you're generalising what was said which was intended to be exclusive in the first place. In this case, some people believe that suicide is an exception in which self-justification is all that really matters.

Zythus 04-4-2008 12:50 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KgZ (Post 2101754)
I understand what you mean, however you don't think love and affection is a necessity?

Let's say you're a teenager who committed suicide. Although you may be right that economical necessaties probably won't be affected, but emotional necessities will definitely be inflicted. For example, If you had a younger brother or sister, it could be traumatic. They might have to go into psychological therapy, and they might never be the same way again. Is that okay with you, as long as you think you made the right decision for yourself regardless of the people around you?


I believe this was discussed in the last two pages. Devonin said basic life necessities met, and I would agree. People who are affected emotionally by a suicided friend or family, it is their weakness. They cast grief upon themselves, its not justified to blame the suicider for his/her actions because it is his/her life. They justified to themselves that suicide is honorable or as eventuality, and so be it.

Humans have such wasted empathy, especially love.

devonin 04-4-2008 02:05 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
As long as everybody involved in something is a consenting adult in sound mind, I support the right of those people to do absolutely anything they want. That certainly extends to killing themselves.

Though as I said, if you are the sole provider for dependants who would suddenly lack in basic necessities of life (And no, love is not a necessity to be blunt) those are people who are involved in your decision, and being not consenting adults in sound mind, mean that you don't have the right to do it. If no such other people exist, knock yourself out, as it were.

Das Mustafah 04-4-2008 02:17 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2104064)
That certainly extends to killing themselves.

lol cuz ur canada

I think that legally the results of the subconscious can be considered not to be the will of the individual, like those people who go crazy and kill people and don't go to jail for it.

OP, I'm guessing you're talking about moral accountability since you didn't mention anything about legal issues.

Personally I find suicide to rarely be a well thought out and rationally considered option, like when people kill themselves over money matters or other (to me) trivial things like interpersonal relationships.

Kill yourself because your wife or child died and I'll understand. Kill yourself because people make fun of you or you're broke, and I'll scorn you. Kill yourself because you're chemically imbalanced or otherwise mentally ill (or maybe physically), and I'll be intrigued.

Zythus 04-4-2008 04:44 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
For your information, US legitimacy does not differ far.

devonin 04-4-2008 05:12 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Also, Canada has the same laws against attempted suicide that the US does, though we'd probably be more inclined to put people into counselling rather than jail or an institution. Sure we're more left-wing than the US, and generally Canadians seem to be more lefty in general, but my support for individual rights doesn't stem from Canadian law, it just is happily in line with a lot of Canadian law.

Das Mustafah 04-4-2008 09:18 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2104298)
Also, Canada has the same laws against attempted suicide that the US does

Oh, I had no idea. I had thought for years that suicide is legal in Canada.

rzr 04-5-2008 11:04 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Having a law against suicide in general is stupid. Most of the people who commit suicide are 'rebels' and aren't going to listen to authority and abide my the law as is, so tempting them isn't a very good idea. However, with suicide comes the grief in everyone near that person, hence the emotions behind the laws.

But, shadowcliff, your point is obvious. If one commits suicide than one will be unable to suffer the laws wrath. But like I said, the temptation endured by the suicidal person just for thor laws being there adds to everything.

And both of your posts are pointless. Stay out of CT if you're inimit write sentences like that and think they're intellectual. They're not.

devonin 04-5-2008 01:06 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Having a law against suicide in general is stupid.
I don't think making it illegal is going to "tempt" people to kill themselves. Quite the opposite. Besides the purpose of the law is that it allows police to take into protective custody those people that try and fail to kill themselves. And by bringing them up on charges, the court can then rule psychiatric evaluations and for the large percentage of suiciders who are clinically depressed or suffering a chemical imbalance, get them the treatment they need to deal with the problem.

People always crack jokes about laws against suicide without ever seeming to realise that without them, these people could never be forced to deal with their problems.

rzr 04-5-2008 01:38 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Protective custody is a joke with the mass of undiscovered police brutality.

But think of the psychology of the suicidal people. Most are a rabble and have a thing for defying authority. Perhaps tempt isn't the best word, but making suicide illegal is stupid. It's going to happen anyway. Like drug trafficing, murder, rape, robbery, intoxicated driving, and fraud. They keep happening and have been illegal for centuries.

It's not that suicide being illegal is like the forbidden fruit, it's just that a rebellious person may simply see it as a way out of a rough situation and the chance to defy authority at the same time. Killing two birds with one stone for them.

devonin 04-5-2008 01:53 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Protective custody is a joke with the mass of undiscovered police brutality.
Once again you need to provide evidence to support a claim like "Mass police brutality" Further, if it is undiscovered, how do you know it exists? Yet further, do you have any idea how suicide watch functions in a prison?

Quote:

But think of the psychology of the suicidal people. Most are a rabble and have a thing for defying authority.
Wow, you've simply never known a depressively suicidal person have you. Well, let me give you a first hand account: I've -BEEN- a suicidally depressed person, and I'm not rabble, I don't have a thing for defying authority, and even if I did, those things had NOTHING AT ALL to do with my being suicidal.

And did you even READ what I posted? The purpose of a law agianst attempting suicide isn't supposed to be a deterrant to commit suicide. It is to give the state a legal right to force you to seek treatment and help for your problems. If you got to the point where you tried to kill yourself, clearly the best intentions of your friends and family weren't enough to make you admit you had an issue that needed treatment, so the law exists because you can then be MADE to seek help. If you've ever known someone who needed to be in rehab for drug or alcohol problems, you will know how close to impossible it is to make someone get that vital help voluntarily. The law enables the state to step in and force you to be treated.

I think you need to learn a little more about clinical and manic depression, as well as suicide.

rzr 04-5-2008 02:37 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Though I prefer to leave personal experiences out of a debate, I will tell you, devonin, I have been locked up in metal hospitals twice for repeated suicide attempts. As for undiscovered police brutality, it's more of a matter of it being unreported. Again, personal experiences which I will elaborate on if you do so wish.

Now, I agree with the state right's to force a suicidal person to seek help, but making it illegal is again, stupid. Like I just said, making it lillegal isn't going to stop it. However, putting more money and effort into creating new and more efficient programs for assisting mentally unstable individuals is a much more productive method. Making suicide illegal is like saying sex is illegal (bad analogy but you get my point). Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's going to stop. But putting the money used for enforcing it into making it safer is much wiser.

devonin 04-5-2008 03:20 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

However, putting more money and effort into creating new and more efficient programs for assisting mentally unstable individuals is a much more productive method.
You still don't get it do you. So they make these wonderful programs, they are efficient, effective and helpful....and NOBODY GOES TO THEM. Why? Because most people who seriously need these things refuse to do so, either they don't care, or they insist they don't have a problem. The way we -make- them get that help is just that, to MAKE them get that help.

Let me state it again more clearly: The purpose of making suicide illegal is not in any way, shape, or form, designed to make people not do it. It is NOT a deterrant law. It is a law created solely to allow the state to force people to seek treatment. It is a convenient excuse to enable the state to help people.

rzr 04-5-2008 03:37 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Perfectly stated. I withdraw my argument.

I do see why it should be illegal. However, I also see why it shouldn't be illegal. I mean, it seems pointless to outlaw something that's going to happen anyway, but I understand the benefits of it. What there should be is a program for the suicide attempters to be forced or volunteer to go to that helps them without the law riding their backs.

devonin 04-5-2008 03:43 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
The only way to force them into that program is if the laws of the state already dictate that such is a suitable consequence for attempting suicide. Why have to muck around in each and every case trying to demonstrate why someone should be put into one of these programs when you can just make a law that says "You try this, you go here"?

rzr 04-5-2008 03:59 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
The thing is, there should be a system for helping emotionaly unstable people enforced by the law without making it illegal. Sounds like an oxymoron, huh? Well, the American founding fathers were stuck and had to invent something completely new, so it's not impossible.

devonin 04-5-2008 04:12 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Um...the state can only make people do things by force of law. There's no other way for the state to make you do something. What do the founding fathers (Who based most of their constitution off the british constitutional modelanyway) have to do with anything?

rzr 04-5-2008 06:37 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
They were an analogy. I'm saying that they were put in a tight situation. And there had never been a successful democracy (not counting Rome and Greece) and they needed to do the impossible which at the time was to have Thomas Jefferson draft the constitution (which, for the record, was mostly theorized based on John Locke's perspectives). And they did it. They did the impossible.

Well, if you're saying that finding a way to force people to not commit suicide is impossible unless enforced my the law then you're wrong. Think about it. The law isn't perfect. Hypothetically, use a more embracing method of enforcement such as being polite and thoughtful. Like a salesmen. He wouldn't say 'you're hong to buy this or else' he'd say 'hello there. I'm selling this and I think it'd be good for you because...'
See?

Das Mustafah 04-5-2008 06:41 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Not adding anything new or original here, but rape and murder will also continue to happen despite laws against them. People will always do these things, and though this doesn't go along the same purpose Devonin stated about suicide laws, legal restraints are necessary.

Also, the law needs to be as harsh as the people who want to break it. Requesting that someone please not rob a store or kill innocent people doesn't seem to cut it. Again, not really in the same vein as suicide, but what's the point in having soft laws for hard crimes? The system has limitless flaws, but it got where it is through trial and error.

Zythus 04-5-2008 06:54 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Suicide laws? For a healthy person, this law does not in any way affect them. It only applies to the people who are indulging themselves in their trauma, etc. Now, the ironic thing is, why would they abide to such a law when they are not in the (by society's standards) right mind, even to regard such a rule as the law? It seems absurd to have such pointlessness.

However, I see luminosity in the prevention of suicide, say a, like Devonin said, "You try this, you go here." If this was placed in effect, I would think it may violate human rights issues, seeing how it would be forceful "quarantine".

In my opinion, suicide as a whole is personal freedom, its an option and a final unregrettable resort that, in part, takes much courage or blight to accomplish.
Did it sound like a good thing? By society's stereotypical standards, no. But I do respect those who do it for valid and honorable reasons.

rzr 04-5-2008 07:06 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Das Mustafah (Post 2106022)
Not adding anything new or original here, but rape and murder will also continue to happen despite laws against them. People will always do these things, and though this doesn't go along the same purpose Devonin stated about suicide laws, legal restraints are necessary.

Also, the law needs to be as harsh as the people who want to break it. Requesting that someone please not rob a store or kill innocent people doesn't seem to cut it. Again, not really in the same vein as suicide, but what's the point in having soft laws for hard crimes? The system has limitless flaws, but it got where it is through trial and error.

The first part of that I already said (as long as I understand it correctly).

Now, zythus, I completely agree with every single word you just said.

devonin 04-5-2008 07:47 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
So having apparantly admitted that you feel these people are NOT in their right mind, you also think they should be able to exercise personal freedom to suicide? Doesn't really work both ways. Personal freedoms are only applicable when you are mentally capable of making free decisions. Acting under the influence of a chemical imbalance in your brain chemistry doesn't constitute a free choice.

The purpose of these laws is to help people who won't or can't help themselves when it is clearly in their best interests to recieve that help. If you get shot and are unconscious, the doctor is able to "violate human rights" as Zythus said and treat you despite your not having given them permission to do so, because it is clearly in your best interest to be helped, and you are not currently in a state of lucid mental awareness to say so.

How is manic or clinlical depression any different? You are demonstrably not in your right mind, and not thinking logically or rationally, so why shouldn't people who are be able to act in your obvious best interests? Treating you so that you don't want to kill yourself certainly seems like an improvement in your life situation.


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