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Zythus 04-5-2008 08:24 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
The only way that your argument is valid is when the suicider has been proven that he/she is deluded by his/her insanity. However, I said that only people with a valid reason to suicide can be called legitimate. And there is the biggest question that I was tempted in my last post to throw out there but refrained from doing so because it may go off topic: Who has the call to say that a person's reasons for suicide is valid? Who has the supremacy to judge a person as insane or is right for treatment?

(In the context that the suicider is sane, by whatever form of judgment.)
I said in my last post "(by society's standards)". The problem with it is that the individual himself/herself can justify his/her reasons for suicide as valid when society does not. And thats the significance of human rights, how is it just that another person can forcefully throw you in a treatment when you possess the freedom to suicide backed by your own VALID justification? This isn't only suicide anymore, in general, it is the questioning of society's standards.

I'll let you answer my question.

rzr 04-6-2008 01:49 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
The only person who can judge the validity of ones suicide or suicide attempt is the suicide attempter. They're the only person who has suffered the individual trauma that has driven them to that point. Because socity tends to shelter itself from the atrocities that are in, many don't experience them. Those who don't are the majority. The majority gets deemed as the 'norm'. The norm dictates the 'abnormal' and deems them as suicidal. Furthermore they deem suicidal as insane. But since thy've never experienced it they have no right to judge it.

devonin 04-6-2008 04:00 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Who has the call to say that a person's reasons for suicide is valid? Who has the supremacy to judge a person as insane or is right for treatment?
Appropriately trained psychiatrists and psychologists do. If the person is found to be of sound mind and still wishes to kill themselves, then I support their right to do so 100%. If they are found to not be of sound mind, they should be treated as such.

Quote:

The norm dictates the 'abnormal' and deems them as suicidal.
Um...no. I'm pretty sure that they deem "People who want to kill themselves" as suicidal. There's nothing in there for societal norms to influence. You want to kill yourself? You are suicidal. You don't want to kill yourself? You aren't suicidal. It's an issue of what the word means.

Quote:

Furthermore they deem suicidal as insane. But since thy've never experienced it they have no right to judge it.
Seems pretty clear to me that people who are suffering from a chemical imbalance in their brain that is not the way the brain is supposed to function, and is leading them to act in ways that are not characteristic of how they would be acting were their brain operating as it was deisgned to don't need someone else to have personally gone through it to recognize it.

I mean this stuff is medically testable. They can simply tell you whether these things are properly in balance or not, so once again, I don't think a) Society concludes that suicidal people are -insane- so much as troubled of mind or b) that you need to somehow have been suicidal to analyze someone's brain chemistry and see that things aren't right.

Zythus 04-6-2008 11:21 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
controversial isn't it. I would say that:

"Appropriately trained psychiatrists and psychologists do. If the person is found to be of sound mind and still wishes to kill themselves, then I support their right to do so 100%. If they are found to not be of sound mind, they should be treated as such."

sums up the whole topic of suicide being acceptable.

Das Mustafah 04-6-2008 11:27 AM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Nothing is new or unique about suffering, and neither are the varying abilities of individuals to cope. The only thing to judge, which should be judged, is the severity/longevity of an individual's situation compared with their mental state.

How do you feel about someone who is just bored with life and doesn't want to continue? Assume that they are considered mentally stable.

Zythus 04-6-2008 12:10 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
If they wish to suicide, by all means do so.

rzr 04-6-2008 12:17 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Nobody is saying that suffering is a new experience. However, if a girl who was raped kills herself [hypothetically] and she is deemed insane that's not right. The people that stereotyped her that was most likely haven't experienced rape, therefore are unfit to judge the emotions of its aftermath.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Das Mustafah (Post 2107120)
Nothing is new or unique about suffering, and neither are the varying abilities of individuals to cope. The only thing to judge, which should be judged, is the severity/longevity of an individual's situation compared with their mental state.

How do you feel about someone who is just bored with life and doesn't want to continue? Assume that they are considered mentally stable.

Devonin: completely wrong. The people in power are the society and again are the majority. The vast majority hasn't suffered the pain that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt. So again, they are unfit to judge it.

UnkownMan 04-6-2008 02:41 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I find suicide acceptable when the suicidee is in great deals of pain. Not because they are "emotional". If you are drawing A LOT of blood but you don't wanna wait till the death, that is a good time to kill yourself. If you lost your girlfriend or your dad/mom/yiff died, NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA.

rzr 04-6-2008 02:56 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UnkownMan (Post 2107410)
I find suicide acceptable when the suicidee is in great deals of pain. Not because they are "emotional". If you are drawing A LOT of blood but you don't wanna wait till the death, that is a good time to kill yourself. If you lost your girlfriend or your dad/mom/yiff died, NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA.

Speaking from experience, cutting isn't necessarily about drawing blood. For the most part it's about two things: posing or control.

When a person is autho to pose their only doing it to fit into a certain crowd or be like their friends i.e. peer pressure.

When a person is doing it for control it's because they don't have any control in the rest of their lives. When they can control their pain they feel the strength. Personally, when I used to cut myself it was for control. I would do it slowly and up my arm because I could control how much blood was released and how much pain I felt.

FictionJunction 04-6-2008 03:00 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rzr (Post 2107185)
Devonin: completely wrong. The people in power are the society and again are the majority. The vast majority hasn't suffered the pain that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt. So again, they are unfit to judge it.

wrong. as a member of this 'vast majority [that] hasn't suffered the pane that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt' I can easily, and without remorse or guilt, state that suicide, despite the pain that may have instigated the consideration, is an abnormal reaction to circumstances people refuse to be in whether those are expected, unexpected, controllable, or uncontrollable - I believe it's human instinct to do what's best for ourselves, and this tendency can often end in considering suicide as a means to an end of the circumstances that people rather not be in. It's perspective. The vast majority will agree that living is better than being dead, and that suffering is just a part of it. Everyone struggles. I find people who commit suicide to be nothing but greedy cowards. Don't justify other people's suffering for the person committing suicide's own. Death doesn't warrant an escape from reality, it just erases them from it. No amount of suffering justifies putting one's self aside and hurting those who care.

What would be a justifiable reason to commit suicide? Things beyond one's control: medical conditions, etc, and even then it could be sketchy.

Why am I an adequate judge of character? Because everyone else is, too.
It is them who stray away from common sense and go down the path of greed. We are who reel them back in.

rzr 04-6-2008 03:19 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Just because they seek suicide as a final resort doesn't at all mean that they are cowards. In fact, it's more courageous than anything the 'vast majority' can think to do, or has the courage to do on their own.

The problem is, many people has commited suicide. Many. But they are dead and can no longer tell us of what drove them to do it or the suffering of which they endured.

FictionJunction 04-6-2008 04:23 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rzr (Post 2107462)
Just because they seek suicide as a final resort doesn't at all mean that they are cowards. In fact, it's more courageous than anything the 'vast majority' can think to do, or has the courage to do on their own.

anyone could do it if the mindset was adequate. They do it as an escape. When has escaping from a problem ever been affiliated to courageousness?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rzr (Post 2107462)
The problem is, many people has commited suicide. Many. But they are dead and can no longer tell us of what drove them to do it or the suffering of which they endured.

uh, this is an absolute statement and is far from the truth. People often express why they commit suicide through writing and recording prior to their death.

back to why it's a matter of perspective.

Perspective like opinion can be either educated or not. Educated opinions have much more value than a simple I don't like it or opinions influenced by what is inherently wrong, naive, and stupid under normal circumstances (i.e trying to eat soup with a fork, or insulting a friend who helped you get up after performing a stunt you didn't land just because your pride was hurt - it's wrong of you to insult your friend for helping you, and it is plain dumb to scoop liquid with a fork). If I were to claim I need to commit suicide because I cannot bear the troubles of my life I'd be wrong in claiming so. I wouldn't be aware of it at that present time as I would be influenced by the poison that catalyzed that channel of thought.

rzr 04-6-2008 04:47 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Well, don't neglect to bring up the other two types of suicide (off the top of my head). Suicide bombers and forfeiting one's life for anothers to be saved. Neither of those two are looking for a simple escape, but know perfectly well what they are doing.

devonin 04-6-2008 05:00 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Devonin: completely wrong. The people in power are the society and again are the majority. The vast majority hasn't suffered the pain that the 'insane and suicidal' people have felt. So again, they are unfit to judge it.
Rzr, give me -ANY- definition of "suicidal" other than "A person who wants to end their own life" that is valid and useful.

Then prove to me that it is a cultural majority judging out of ignorance to define "suicidal" as "Having the desire to end ones own life" It's what the word means. When you demonstrate that behavior, you have that term applied to you. This is the equivalent of trying to say that you only have black hair because the blond majority judges you as being different. It's a truism by definition: "Suicidal people want to end their own life" it's very simple and straightforward and culture has nothing at all to do with it.


Quote:

The problem is, many people has commited suicide. Many. But they are dead and can no longer tell us of what drove them to do it or the suffering of which they endured.
And yet the overwhelming majority of failed suicide attempters report that they last thing they thought before they passed out/thought they were going to die, was to regret having taken that step. The much more overwhelming majority of failed suicide attempters after having been tested and treated for the various conditions that usually lead to the decision also say they regret having tried it.

Biologically it is -NEVER- in your personal best interest to terminate your own life unless you have rationally concluded that the betterment of your tribe/species is assured. You'll also notice that I said if you can prove you are rational and in sound mind, I support your right to kill yourself.

If you have a terminal condition and are draining your family's money despite knowing you're going to die from this anyway, I support your right to suicide.

If you have a chemical imbalance in your brain that is lowering the production of endorphins leading you into clinical depression which doesn't reflect your healthy state of mind, and you can be easily treated, I don't support your right to suicide.

Quote:

Well, don't neglect to bring up the other two types of suicide (off the top of my head). Suicide bombers and forfeiting one's life for anothers to be saved. Neither of those two are looking for a simple escape, but know perfectly well what they are doing.
Suicide bombers are committing murder, not suicide, and I welcome them into whichever hell accepts people who think any western religion supports the killing of innocent people in the name of their faith. Someone who dies to save someone else's life is doing so rationally and logically and I support their right to do it.

Nothing you've said has addressed the basic premise of my position that several others seem to be willing to accept:

"If the person is found by appropriately trained psychiatrists and psychologists to be of sound mind and still wish to kill themselves, then I support their right to do so 100%. If they are found to not be of sound mind, they should be treated as such."

What objections remain to this position?

rzr 04-6-2008 05:25 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Because I don't feel like quoting everything you just said I will bed my input like this:

When my suicide attempt failed I most certaintly did not regret trying. I did regret than it was my own mother who found me hanging, and I did regret that I failed in the attempt, but I did not regret trying and (hypothetically) wouldn't have regretted it had I succeeded.

Also, my attempts were induced because of physical abuse. You say the suicide attempters can be easily treated etc? Well, again with the personal experiences, I was beat WHILE in the mental hospital for rehabilitating my state of mind.

Finally, obviously it is biologically irrational to commit suicide. However, if you were put in the following situation what would you do:

You and your life partner/mother/father/sibling etc have both been bitten by a poisonous animal. You have enough of the antidote to save one of you. You pick the other. That is technically suicide, but it would be a form of suicide to praise one for choosing.

devonin 04-6-2008 05:32 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
That is not suicide. Suicide is the act of ending your own life. This is not the same as allowing yourself to die to save someone else.

Sacrifice != Suicide

rzr 04-6-2008 06:15 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
No, it is suicide. One could just as easily sacrifice the other to save their own life.
They're in there right mind and are completely aware of their actions. Sacrifice does = suicide.

devonin 04-6-2008 06:17 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Sacrificing the other to save your own life = murder
Sacrificng yourself to save their life = sacrifice
Killing yourself in a largely consequential vacuum = suicide

rzr 04-6-2008 06:32 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 2107776)
Sacrificing the other to save your own life = murder
Sacrificng yourself to save their life = sacrifice
Killing yourself in a largely consequential vacuum = suicide

No. Sacrificing yourself is the same as suicide. Sacrificing others for yourself is murder. But sacrificing yourself to save others is also a form of suicide. You know what you're doing. You can control it. You can stop it. But you continue to do it.

KlingPosnot 04-6-2008 06:32 PM

Re: Acceptable Suicide?
 
I tend to view suicide as a personal decision to take your own life...thus I side with devonin in saying that sacrifice would not be suicide...in most situations...because you are not the one taking your life, you are simply being forced into a place where you or the other person will be killed...on the other hand there are "sacrifices" such as the japanese kamikaze or seppuku where you are merely asked to kill yourself to benefit others; I view these as a true form of suicide as the people committing them aren't put into a situation where death is guaranteed.


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