Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums

Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/index.php)
-   Critical Thinking (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/forumdisplay.php?f=33)
-   -   Gay Churches? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=85063)

drakethelegend 01-5-2008 03:59 PM

Gay Churches?
 
(PLEASE JUST READ THIS SENTENCE... I know this looks like a lot but it's really not. I have re-read it a couple times, and it takes only 8 minutes. So if you have 8 minutes to spare, and to read some stuff that is very interesting (as well as entertaining...), then please take the time to at least glance through some of this. However, do not, under ANY circumstances, comment if you do not read the whole thing please...) :)


Okay. So recently I did the usual, same as you all did. I woke up, and the first thing I did was check my myspace. Lol. But when I looked at it I noticed something. I had a message from an interesting lovely friend that I haven't seen in years. Her name is Longtimefriend. (I don't want people judging her, whether good or bad...) And this is what she told me.

Longtimefriend told me that she needed advice about God and stuff, so I did the best I could. I am no saint, and I am no pastor or anything. But I am a soldier of Christ, (even though I don't look it... ;) ), and I gave her my opinion of the things she was going through. But when she was talking about stuff, specifically the church that she goes too, she mentioned something interesting. She said that her church is okay with homosexuality.

Now to be honest I wasn't too shocked. I have heard of these types of churchs before, so it was nothing new. But I had never actually KNOWN someone that went to one. So I asked her questions about it, and did some research, and here is what I came up with.

Now first of all I want to point out a few things, before you read what I have to say.
1. I am not, in any way, judging homosexuals. If you are a homosexual, please just read what I have to say, and take it or leave it. The same if you are NOT a homosexual but think it is okay, and the same for people who think that all gays are "gunna go da hell!". I don't want to offend anybody. I am just saying what I think. I don't ask that you agree with me or disagree, simply, to just see what I came up with. And if you do feel strongly about this, then PLEASE leave a comment, I would love to see what you have to say. Even if it's disagreement.
2. I want everybody to know something that I probably haven't told any of you. This is VERY personal. I want you to know that I used to be bi. For a while I thought I might be gay, and I had intimate relations with men. Guys. I did gay stuff. I won't say how much or how little, but it was enough to raise eyebrows. So don't feel I am being one sided about this. I am not one of those people that are like "ewwww yucky... gays.." I am NOT being one-sided about this. I am simply trying to point out a couple FACTS, and logically make a conclusion.

Okay, so here we go.

Now when we ask the question about whether or not being gay is wrong or not, we have to have a base, or a source from where we make our conclusions. And yes, I am a Christian, so i will make my base be from the bible. But that would be wierd right? Because some churches say it's okay and accepts gays, and some churches don't.

I am from a Church that says it doesn't, and let me explain.

The church is based on the bible. Without the bible you wouldn't even have the church, just a bunch of people walking around telling you what's bad and what's good, and you wouldn't know why. The bible IS the church, in essence, it is what it teaches, and we do what it says, and we go by it. That's why I don't agree with churches that say it is okay to be gay. Now wait. I am not saying here being gay is wrong. The person that reads what I just wrote and says "There it is, he is saying he is against gays and I am not listening to him..." that is being ignorant. Listen to me.

I am not saying being gay is wrong there, with that sentence. I am saying that a church that says it is okay to be gay, that doesn't condemn homosexual marriage, is wrong. And if you think about it, I think you will agree with me. The Church is BASED on the bible, how can something stand for something and not stand for all of it? That would be like the government saying some rules don't apply. That they are there for no reason. Or that would be like taking some of the rules and saying "Well Washington didn't mean THAT... he meant..." w/e, to achieve the selfish need the person had at the moment. I am not saying being gay is wrong there, I am saying Churches that take parts of the bible out to suit their needs is wrong. And I know, even if you are an atheist, even if you are a GAY atheist, will agree.

That's like a church saying "Well stealing is not ACTUALLY wrong...". Imagine if that happened. How ludicrous would that be? If churches started popping up all over the place, you would have the church that is okay to steal, the church that is okay to lust, the church that is okay with JUST killing.... how crazy would that be? Well, I think it is the same as the church that think it is okay to be gay. And right now your probably thinking, if your an atheist, or gay, or w/e, well what are the verses? What are they? If you showed me, Drake, that it specifically says so in the bible, then I can agree that this church is wrong. And that's all I ask for. I am not asking you to believe in god and love jesus, if you are an athiest, I am asking you to agree with the basic fundementality that if something is built on something, it should be BUILT on it! All of it, not part of it. Even atheists or hinduists or what the heck ever can agree with me on that.

So here are 4 quick verses that I believe are the core of it. Just glance through real fast, and see if you agree or disagree. Afterwards I want to also tell all of yall of one VERY important thing. So just glance through these and read what I have to say afterwards, I promise you I'm almost done, lol.

Deuteronomy 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (The Sodomites consisted of a lot of homosexuals...)

Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (here the author is talking about THE VAGINA AND THE PENIS. Lol. When you were 12 you may have seen a "nature" video about how a male and a female have babies. This is what he is talking about...)
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; (and again here...) men with men (right here...) working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (here...)
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:9-11 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, (again here...) for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

NOW STOP.
There is one thing I want to point out. Paul was the first person to start speaking of these thing, and what Paul meant was, that homosexuality is a sin. In the bible it says to God, all sin is equal. If this is true, that means that lying to your mom about going to the mall is the same when two gay guys do each other in the butts. (Gross? Why is it? Think about why you had that initial reaction...) If this is true, then all sin is equal. That means that a guy lusting after a hot guy is the same after a guy lusting after a hot guy.

What does this mean? This mean that Paul, among the other authors, is saying that homosexual ACTS are a sin. He is saying that a guy being tempted to have gay sex is the same as a guy tempted to have pre-maritatl sex with a woman. The world has this mixed up thing that God condemns the feelings of a homosexual. That is not true. God doesn't condemn feelings. Feelings, it says this in the bible, are not a sin. It is being tempted. FEELINGS = BEING TEMPTED. It is not wrong to be tempted, it is wrong to act on it. Don't forget that since I am a crazy christian, I believe the verse that says the authors of the bible only spoke from the holy spirit, from god. So god is saying this.

What I am saying here is that we should view Homosexuals as any other sinner. Whether you steal or lie or have sex with the same sex, you are still a sinner. Churches need to stop abandoning gays and lesbians because they are different "sinners", they are still sinners. And so are we.

So what am I saying? Am I saying we need to be a church that allows and accepts homosexuals?

Not at all. These churches think that homosexuals are OKAY... that they are going to heaven. That somehow if you are a MARRIED homosexual, you are not sinning. And that is ridiculous, as the scriptures CLEARLY point out earlier...

Even if you are athiest, even if you are gay, even if you are a gay atheist, you should be able to agree with me. Those churches are split. They are forming their own way, and it is wrong, because they are based on the bible. PLEASE leave me comments, I would love to know what you think. But please don't leave comments on whether or not being gay is wrong. I am not argueing that. I already said I am a christian and I agree with christian morals, but that is not what I am disproving or saying is wrong. I am saying churches that accept homosexuals, and don't condemn it, are wrong.

SOME EXTRA THOUGHTS...

I talked to this girl, Longtimefriend, and she told me a couple things. She said that, although one of her pastors is a lesbian, the church "chooses not to talk about those things..." and I can't help but wonder why. Why? What do you think? She also, when pressed about her personal beliefs, and evidence, said that she really didn't know, and that they mostly use a "prayer book" when in church. I asked her who wrote it. It seemed reasonable if you base your beliefs and morals on a book you should know all about it. She said she didn't know who wrote it, and neither did her parents.

What do yall think? Agree, disagree? Why or why not? Thoughts?

GuidoHunter 01-5-2008 04:22 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drakethelegend (Post 1966134)
(Churches need to stop abandoning gays and lesbians because they are different "sinners", they are still sinners. And so are we.

Who is "abandoning" gays and how? It's because they're sinners who need help that they're embraced.

As for your "One Church" idea, well, I couldn't agree more. The Bible is very clear on matters and doesn't leave room for "well, the Bible says this, but I think it's okay, so this is what my church believes."

Such an issue has split the Episcopal church in two, which is just plain bad for its followers. Problems with sacred authority create bigger problems worldwide.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

drakethelegend 01-5-2008 07:41 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
yeah i agree. most churches and people view them as "ewwww don't help them" or "oh their gay it's okay it's not wrong..." when the answer is neither of those...

Engler 01-5-2008 07:59 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
The Bible is not to be taken literally; only a fool would believe everything that is said in the Bible (and I am a Roman Catholic).

Homosexuality (for the most part) is something that cannot be helped by an individual. I can understand why you believe that homosexual SEX is wrong, but I feel as though you are leaving out the "general love" factor. What if two men were kissing each other? Would you consider that a sin? Basically, I for one believe that love is unconditional, and that God realizes this, and does not condemn the gays.

Furthermore, I feel as though you are saying that the gays should not be allowed to attend church because they are sinning. Is it not true that all humans sin? Perhaps you should not be allowed to attend church either, as I'm sure that you have also sinned.

In short, while I can see that you are not trying to offend a particular group, you fail to see that you are adhering to the Bible as though it was a factual book. This is causing you to single out and essentially shun every homosexual individual.

Crashfan3 01-5-2008 08:05 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
I also have to agree that this is quite strange indeed.
Churches exist to preach of God. God says to do certain things and not to do certain things. Then the churches, "representatives of God", if you will, turn around and say that it's okay to be homosexual. That means that these so-called "churches" are saying that God himself said it's okay to be homosexual, which obviously isn't true.
You said that the pastor is a lesbian? How long has she been a pastor? Ask your friend if she went to this church before this lesbian pastor took over. Who was the pastor before that? Was he/she homosexual? Did he approve of homosexuality?

This has me quite curious and perplexed.

drakethelegend 01-5-2008 08:40 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Lol, Engler clearly you didn't read my whole thing I wrote. I didn't say that at all, I said that churches should accept gays, they just shouldn't be open to thinking it's okay to be gay. they should think it a sin as all other sins, i never said they shouldn't be allowed because they are gay. that would mean all sinners should go to church, and that's what church is for.
And DUH I am stating that the bible is factual. Do you believe that Plato or Aristotle existed? Did you know they only have 26 historical documents from which scholars base their existence from? Jesus? 2,600 historical documents. People like to be ignorant because they can live their live however they want w/o guilt that way.

I agree crashfan3. It's absurd. You can't build something and cut corners like that. Especially something with eternal consequences.

devonin 01-5-2008 08:55 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crashfan3
God says to do certain things and not to do certain things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakethelegend
And DUH I am stating that the bible is factual.

You guys are both on warning one of breaking rule number 5 of posting in the CT forum.

crash: While it is the case that churches, and organised religion on the whole, tends to suggest that they know and are demonstrating the true and factual word of God, proving such is entirely beyond their abilities, often by their own admission.

drake: For one, documentation supporting the existance of Jesus is not REMOTELY the same thing as documentation supporting the factuality of the bible. For two, I've personally read more than 26 pieces of writing directly attributed to Plato and Aristotle, to say nothing for the myriad other documents that mention them that were written by contemporaries of both.

Watch that rule 5 guys, its a killer any and every time religion comes up.

drakethelegend 01-5-2008 09:03 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
where do i find these rules? i didn't even know there were some... should i delete this thread then?

GuidoHunter 01-5-2008 09:12 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Engler (Post 1966472)
What if two men were kissing each other? Would you consider that a sin?

Depends on the context. Amicable kissing between men was done in the Bible, and there's clearly no problem with it. Such kissing was not lust-filled, though, which is a completely different matter.

Quote:

Basically, I for one believe that love is unconditional, and that God realizes this, and does not condemn the gays.
Like both you and the OP have said already, homosexuality is not the sin; homosexual acts are.

Quote:

Furthermore, I feel as though you are saying that the gays should not be allowed to attend church because they are sinning. Is it not true that all humans sin? Perhaps you should not be allowed to attend church either, as I'm sure that you have also sinned.
This is just the opposite of what the OP clearly stated in his post.

Quote:

you fail to see that you are adhering to the Bible as though it was a factual book.
This is not a problem, especially in this context. As a Catholic, you should understand that.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

drakethelegend 01-5-2008 09:19 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
thanks guidohunter, you said everything i could say in better words, lol. And I just read the rules Devonin, thanks for the heads up. I didn't say anything offensive about gays or christians, but I'll watch it, now that I know there is a rule about that kind of stuff. Thanks for the heads up ill be careful :)
But another thing is that I feel yall are starting to talk about "gay rights" and whether it's wrong or not. I firmly don't believe being gay is wrong, like guidohunter said, "gay acts" are wrong. but that's because we believe in the bible. (at least i think so guidohunter?) but talking about whether it's wrong or not to be gay isn't the topic in this thread, opinions about whether or not churches should allow the "gay is okay" rule is being discussed...

devonin 01-5-2008 09:27 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
I can think of no compelling reason for any church to refuse to consider or discuss any concept.

Blind adherance to what has come before is a logical fallacy. Just because it was that way, means neither that it should continue that way, or that that way was correct.

That said, from the standpoint of the church, certain things are just simply anathema and will never change, as they are integral to the very tenets of the faith, and that's fine, as far as it goes, and is the reason why Rule 5 of CT exists. They are perfectly allowed to believe anything they like is the complete and ultimate truth, provided they don't attempt to claim that it is provably true to others without evidence.

If anything, the church should be keen to discuss all of these issues, including homosexuality, even if just to be an outlet for the church position, so that churchgoers can have their concerns dealt with. Refusing to talk about it at all just gets them pointed to as bastions of orthodoxy who refuse to even consider the mere possibility that they might be unable to stand up to a challenge.

Coming forward and explaining clearly and openly what the church position is and why the church holds that position is just as important as any other aspect of the church.

Rubin0 01-6-2008 10:37 AM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
I don't understand how you can accept homosexuality, but expect them never to act in a loving way towards another homosexual. I think denying one's feelings is the worst sin of all. Gay people are not hurting anyone by loving another person. We have one life. Everyone should be allowed to live it.

devonin 01-6-2008 11:06 AM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
The church position is that the bible forbids romantic interaction between man and man, and between woman and woman. Committing such acts is a sin. However, there is nothing necessarily intrinsically sinful about being a homosexual, and depending on the school of thought of the religious figure you ask, the constant temptation to sin in a way that most people are not tempted to sin actually makes you more laudable.

I suspect some might view it as God seeing some great potential in someone, and testing them with a more difficult lot in life.

GuidoHunter 01-6-2008 12:37 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 1967238)
I think denying one's feelings is the worst sin of all. Gay people are not hurting anyone by loving another person. We have one life. Everyone should be allowed to live it.

There's this big book called "The Bible". Maybe you should familiarize yourself with it before criticizing a church's teachings which are based on the book.

If you just want to argue that you don't like the rule, this thread isn't the place for that.

--Guido

jewpinthethird 01-6-2008 02:50 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes even his on life -he cannot be my disciple." - Luke 14:26

"Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you." -Deuteronomy 5:16

So, should I hate or honor my family? Should I honorably hate them...or hate them honorably? I'm kind of confused. This book has all the answers, but what if the answers contradict each other? There are many contradictions in the Bible that challenge it's "factuality." And certain churches acknowledge this fact.

Some believe the Bible to have been corrupted by men through the years and years of translation and re-interpretation. They believe that the Bible does have certain inherit truths, but that a large portion of it is extremely outdated. They don't bound themselves to dogmatic practices.

devonin 01-6-2008 03:28 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Holy context Batman.

Luke 14:25-33

Quote:

25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said:
26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28 "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it?
29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him,
30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'
31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace.
33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
The extreme language seems clear to me: In order to be a true disciple, you must give up everything, and you must decide beforehand, whether you are able and willing to make that sacrifice. God is of paramount importance, next to all other things.

drakethelegend 01-6-2008 05:09 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
ive read that verse many times and have told many of my friends whose parents are drug addicts. what it means is that you have to be able to sacrifice all before god, yourself, your life, your whatever. but that shouldn't be a problem, because w/o god we wouldn't even exist? it's also saying that everybody wants to not like the person that has made that sacrifice, because it's a hard thing to do. we cling to our pride.

Rubin0 01-6-2008 08:51 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter (Post 1967333)
There's this big book called "The Bible". Maybe you should familiarize yourself with it before criticizing a church's teachings which are based on the book.

If you just want to argue that you don't like the rule, this thread isn't the place for that.

--Guido


I went to Catholic school for fourteen years, and was a religious instructor for three years. I know a thing or two about the Bible. I no longer agree with a lot of things I was teaching people, and now choose not to associate myself with the Catholic church. I was just expressing my opinion. I don't see what the problem is. Don't assume me ignorant because I went a little off topic...

Corbin Wells 01-8-2008 01:36 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
The only thing I will never agree with is the fact that there are so many versions of the bible and so many branches of christianity. Whatever happened to just one message? What's with all of the different branches and what's the point of so many people trying to decipher the word of someone whom noone has ever seen or heard from and using the numerous versions of it as a base for deciding on what's right and wrong?

I love how there have been studies that have even show there are some homosexual relations in animals as well and that it was finally considered a NORMAL behavior and yet I can still be labeled as a "sinner" from a group of people who like to deny science and scientists, yeah you know, those people who actually work for an answer through discovery and observation? Yeah, those people? The ones with all the nifty gadgets? :p

GuidoHunter 01-8-2008 01:55 PM

Re: Gay Churches?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbin Wells (Post 1970193)
I love how there have been studies that have even show there are some homosexual relations in animals as well and that it was finally considered a NORMAL behavior and yet I can still be labeled as a "sinner" from a group of people who like to deny science and scientists, yeah you know, those people who actually work for an answer through discovery and observation? Yeah, those people? The ones with all the nifty gadgets? :p

First: define "normal".

Second: explain how having anal sex with another dude is "normal".

Third: understand that no matter your definition for "normal", that by no means removes a sinful nature from an act (emphasis on "act").

I'm pretty sure it's "normal" to be greedy, lustful, wrathful, avaricious, gluttonous, prideful, and slothful, but that doesn't make them okay.

Science has absolutely no say in what's sinful and what's not, so I don't see why you even bring them into it.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution