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slipstrike0159 11-20-2007 12:51 AM

United States eventual future?
 
I was thinking about this idea when i was debating gay marriage, the war in iraq, and abortion in my government class. It becomes more and more apparent to me that with this country's continuing need to have security and order they end up wanting the government to solve the problems associated with this lifestyle. When the people want a set rule for more and more things like gay marriage and abortion we continually give the government more power to decide these things for the country. Now i can eventually see a excess of these conflicts arising which will revert this country back to the way it was before it was created, where congress creates set rules and standards for everyone regardless of the minority. We cant have the ability to govern ourselves while have someone in a higher position govern us as well. Its a give and take relationship and i fear is becoming more and more unbalanced.
Has anyone else considered this revert of government power in relation to the country's needs?

travman301 11-20-2007 12:56 AM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
It sounds to me like you are assuming that Repulicans are going to rule the government for the rest of this country's existance.

Lol, not going to happen.

devonin 11-20-2007 02:30 AM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
This thread as stated is missing too much information, contains too much bias and too many assumptions...

Slipstrike, could you perhaps rephrase this in a little more balanced of a way?

Zythus 11-20-2007 06:15 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
hold on, thats why its critical thinking, we need to expand his line of thought.

Anyways, I feel that humans hate to take responsibility. We like to have a leader to make rules so we can feel free and procrastinate about their decision, with the assurance that we did not make these rules and take no blame in decision. However, we also love to feel some kind of devotion to particular thoughts, for example, fighting for abortion and against abortion. From my point of view, theres always a certain amount of equilibrium between government power and citizen views, but it was the order that a citizen technically obeys the ideas of the government. Those who rebel will always be present, but as we are talking about things like abortion and gay marriage, I don't think its to die for or to wage some kind of major conflict. I think I will stop there...I don't want to bring other concepts with a stronger pull/push factor into this comment...

MixMasterLar 11-20-2007 07:07 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
It is unbalanced, but I have a feeling it will turn into Russia before it compleatly fails.

Also like Trav said, Since diffirent people with diffirent views come and go at a fairly regular rate, it's hard for us to get stuck in too much of a rut.

devonin 11-20-2007 09:17 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

It is unbalanced, but I have a feeling it will turn into Russia before it compleatly fails.
What does that even mean? Turn into Russia circa when? We talking Tzarist Russia? the Soviet Union? Russia now? Turn into it how? Politcally, economically, socially?

Zythus 11-20-2007 09:30 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1884233)
What does that even mean? Turn into Russia circa when? We talking Tzarist Russia? the Soviet Union? Russia now? Turn into it how? Politcally, economically, socially?

Hopefully, hes referring to Russia's communism.
I get the feeling that the US is going to collapse of its own accord, the higher you go, the harder you fall. These issues, gay marriage, abortion and all, they are only within the American border. However, worldwide and internationally, US is being a nuisance, a prime example would be the jig in Iraq, with Bush's failing ambitions on his treasured little oil. Pulling on another country's affairs along with dragging neighbors, Canada, into this nonsense. That, is how US declares supremacy and rises above other countries, but as sept 11 has once shown us, US will be a considerable target for retribution, terrorism, just because its so egotistic and arrogant. You may go on flaming me about this "Canada pulled into the war" but its true. Stephan harper couldn't refuse the calling of bush to help with the US affairs, he didn't want to have a bad record with the US.

devonin 11-20-2007 09:40 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
I think you woefully underestimate how ingrained the capitalist ideals are in the American people if you think there is -any- chance of the United States remotely resembling communism.

And while I won't flame you for saying that Bush pulled Canada into the War in Iraq, I will assert that your statement is false. We along with many nations got involved in Afghanistan (and rightfully so) but so far as I'm aware, we have no troop presence in Iraq at all, and are no part of Operation Iraqi Freedom

coldsunlight 11-20-2007 09:42 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
if the other countries don't obey what the US ask them to do, they cannot export and import, they will lose their stand in global affairs. Cuba is a good example for disobeying stronger force. LOL
-----------------------
Still, when Bush called out for the wars, a bunch of people eagerly supported. And those Republicans most of the time win the congress, anyway, that there are nothing really involve communism

Zythus 11-20-2007 09:45 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1884267)
I think you woefully underestimate how ingrained the capitalist ideals are in the American people if you think there is -any- chance of the United States remotely resembling communism.

I was suggesting that the Americans think of a form of a deviation of the communism idea. It is apparent that US feels that it can interfere with international affairs, and bring "peace" to such issues. That is a form of a forced control much similar to the same aspect in a communist way of thinking.

devonin 11-20-2007 09:48 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coldsunlight
if the other countries don't obey what the US ask them to do, they cannot export and import, they will lose their stand in global affairs. Cuba is a good example for disobeying stronger force. LOL

Um...do you actually know anything about the trade embargo between the US and Cuba?

The embargo forbids -Americans- from doing business with Cubans. Cuba is welcome to trade with anybody else they feel like, but American markets are closed to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zythus
That is a form of a forced control much similar to the same aspect in a communist way of thinking.

You seem to be a little confused about how communism works, or rather, you seem to take it as fact that previous regimes that claimed to be communist states were actually communists.

Zythus 11-20-2007 09:57 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1884267)
And while I won't flame you for saying that Bush pulled Canada into the War in Iraq, I will assert that your statement is false. We along with many nations got involved in Afghanistan (and rightfully so) but so far as I'm aware, we have no troop presence in Iraq at all, and are no part of Operation Iraqi Freedom

Afghanistan was like a stage set for the US with the cast of the other various nations. Its more "peer pressure" that we the Canadians were pulled into this fiasco in the first place. Bush was gloating his little inspirational freedom act and to seem more supported, called the others to join him up in stage. Other nations had no choice but to join, fearing disfavor by the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1884286)

You seem to be a little confused about how communism works, or rather, you seem to take it as fact that previous regimes that claimed to be communist states were actually communists.

Confused or not, its a legitimate answer. I don't actually believe US will EVER be or turning communists, but the ideas they weild are certainly very rash and organized, like an idea from the communist's scrapbook.

MixMasterLar 11-20-2007 09:59 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Hopefully, hes referring to Russia's communism
Bingo

Im in no way saying we are like communist, just that before we fail we will be more like them

plus I wrote that when I misread the title as "US Eventual Failur"

Quote:

Other nations had no choice but to join, fearing disfavor by the US
Agree'd. Dont anger the US. It makes me angry that my people feel that they are always right. Now I do support our troops make no mistake, but there are a few things wrong with this entire war(but that's for another thread)

devonin 11-20-2007 10:10 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zythus (Post 1884288)
Afghanistan was like a stage set for the US with the cast of the other various nations. Its more "peer pressure" that we the Canadians were pulled into this fiasco in the first place. Bush was gloating his little inspirational freedom act and to seem more supported, called the others to join him up in stage. Other nations had no choice but to join, fearing disfavor by the US.

Um...I think you need to read up a little bit on these particular conflicts and the political process surrounding them. Afghanistan was actually under the hostile control of a foreign and oppressive power, and I think almost everyone involved in the overthrow of the Taliban viewed what was going on, and rightly so, as liberation. Canadians are still there in fact, cleaning up the US's mess and trying to keep the peace while Taliban holdouts still try to retain control over portions of the country.

In my opinion, going into Afghanistan was completely a good choice. That the person claiming responsibility for the 9/11 attacks was known to be involved with that group, and heavily suspected to be located in that country provided an excellent justification for liberating a nation under the control of foreign conquering powers.

Iraq is completely different, and that is why Bush lost basically -all- of his support when he moved into the Iraqi theatre. There, the nation was under the control of a domestic government that, no matter how suspect their methods, was elected and holding legitimate authority. It had no connection whatsoever to the Taliban, to Al-Quaeda, or to Bin Laden, and you will never convince me that the US ever thought otherwise, though they liked to claim such very loud and often.

Quote:

Confused or not, its a legitimate answer. I don't actually believe US will EVER be or turning communists, but the ideas they weild are certainly very rash and organized, like an idea from the communist's scrapbook.
Rash and Organized are almost contradictory terms when you're talking about a political system. Somehow I think you're forming some bizarre portmanteau from communism and the anarchists's cookbook, but I'm pretty sure that actual marxist communism, as written, bears very little resemblance to what you're trying to describe here.

The US is looking more like a far-right wing authoritarian state, closer akin to facism than communism (See how I neatly avoid getting Godwin'd) and even if many of the ideologies are similar at the extreme ends (The politcal line is a curve not a straight line) their methods and methodologies are completely different.

Zythus 11-20-2007 10:27 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1884318)
Iraq is completely different, and that is why Bush lost basically -all- of his support when he moved into the Iraqi theatre. There, the nation was under the control of a domestic government that, no matter how suspect their methods, was elected and holding legitimate authority. It had no connection whatsoever to the Taliban, to Al-Quaeda, or to Bin Laden, and you will never convince me that the US ever thought otherwise, though they liked to claim such very loud and often.

Rash and Organized are almost contradictory terms when you're talking about a political system. Somehow I think you're forming some bizarre portmanteau from communism and the anarchists's cookbook, but I'm pretty sure that actual marxist communism, as written, bears very little resemblance to what you're trying to describe here.

The US is looking more like a far-right wing authoritarian state, closer akin to facism than communism (See how I neatly avoid getting Godwin'd) and even if many of the ideologies are similar at the extreme ends (The politcal line is a curve not a straight line) their methods and methodologies are completely different.

I somewhat do agree that US is authoritarian. Facism:

fas·cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

From this definition, its a deviation of communism, not marxist whatsoever.

devonin 11-20-2007 10:30 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Um...Facism and Communism are at the exact opposite ends of the political spectrum. Neither one is a "deviation" of the other, they are seperate and distinct political systems.

IE. By posting the definition of Facism you've also pretty well posted a defintion for the exact opposite of actual marxist communism.

Zythus 11-20-2007 10:33 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1884360)
Um...Facism and Communism are at the exact opposite ends of the political spectrum. Neither one is a "deviation" of the other, they are seperate and distinct political systems.

IE. By posting the definition of Facism you've also pretty well posted a defintion for the exact opposite of actual marxist communism.

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power.
If that isn't a deviation of communism , then I'll eat my newly bought $300 dollar surround sound speaker system for my PC.

devonin 11-20-2007 10:35 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Read Marx. I'll expect pictures of the eating process.

Zythus 11-20-2007 10:44 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
Karl Heinrich Marx (May 5, 1818 – March 14, 1883) was a 19th century philosopher, political economist, and revolutionary. Marx addressed a wide range of political as well as social issues; he is most famous for his analysis of history, summed up in the opening line of the Communist Manifesto (1848): “The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles”. Marx believed that like all other socioeconomic systems, capitalism will be displaced by communism, a classless society after another transitional period in which the state would be nothing else but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.[1][2]


capitalism will be displaced by communism, a classless society after another transitional period in which the state would be nothing else but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, that what marxism states.
___________
1.Facism ---------------------------communism--------------2.Marxist



they both come back to communism ....

devonin 11-20-2007 11:27 PM

Re: United States eventual future?
 
And you completely and thoroughly don't understand what the "dictatorship of the proletariat" means as compared to "A facist Dictatorship" Just because the word dictatorship is in both, doesn't mean they are the same.

Consider "Tyrrany" and "The Tyrrany of the Majority" the same word appears in both, the utterly do not imply the same things.


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