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-   -   Free Will: An Illusion; Free Choice: An Oxymoron (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=7899)

Specforces 03-2-2004 01:39 AM

Free Will: An Illusion; Free Choice: An Oxymoron
 
I know I've been posting a lot of stuff lately, but bear with me, just trying to keep this forum flowing. Besides some of the best stuff comes from these forums. :D

Now,

Before considering free will lets consider what is being free?

Now does free means that there is an absence of conditioning, constraints and control over what we think, say and do? (And to be aware of and be able to set ourselves "free" from such in the first place.)

If that is so then we are certainly not free. We are certainly conditioned constantly, consciously and unconsciously, even from within our mother's womb, and even since then by our parents, peers, education, media, things we hear or read or see. We are constrained by our biological nature. Our genes determined the colour of our hair,eyes and skin, and many more things. We need to eat, drink and have sex. We need to have a warm dry sheltered place every night. And we all grow old and die, and cannot fly like the birds. And finally we have government and society: we just cannot do what we like to do, like kill the person whom we hate, who is evil and have killed those that I loved. But control is not only in the government, we are also constantly vulnerable by the unknown and uncertain, such as an earthquake or the stock market crashing, and there is very little we can do about it, except to buy insurance.

So again maybe freedom is therefore not absence of conditioning, constraints and controls. Freedom is merely our ability to decide between alternatives given the conditioning, constraints and controls.

But even if you can will anything within these limits, does it mean we have the means and ability to carry out what we willed. I can will to achieve the highest sales this year in my work place, or I can will to win the Noble prize for physics, or whatever. But is merely willing enough? Surely it is not. Our "free will" is further curtailed by our abilities or the lack thereof.

But let say somehow you do get access to the means, by whatever means, beg, borrow or steal, or imagine, hypothetically, that you have access to God, who hears you and does what you ask. (Now for those who dont like the idea of God, consider the Aladdin story, where instead of God you substitute it with the genie, granting you three wishes.)

Now what would you ask?

Do you know what to ask? Do you have the wisdom and knowledge to will and to ask that which is .... what? best for you? makes you richest? wisest? most powerful? best for you family? best for the world? or what? what is best?

What is the criteria for asking anything? Maximise your full selfish desires? Or maximise "good" or minimise "evil, or to ask for the "right" things? But as apparent here we do not really know what is good or what is bad. So do we really know what to ask?

(If I was Aladdin all I need is one wish. And my wish is that I have 2 more wishes. And then the first of these 2 wishes I wished anything I want/need/desire at the moment - money, food, sex, fly or whatever - and the second wish I wished for another 2 wishes, ad infinitum.)

Can you see the full consequence of any act of your own? It have been said that a butterfly flapping its wings in Bali caused a tornado in Kansas. So what more an act of man?

Now lets assume that there is "someone" - man or machine or yet something else - supremely wise, who knows all things and sees all things from beginning to end. And not only that this one loves you, ie you can trust him. And also he loves all, ie whatever he deemed "best" for you is also "best" for everybody else.

Would you not consult such a person before you decide what to will? And would you not listen and follow what he thinks is the best for you, even if you do not understand nor fully appreciate what he tells you?

Would not the best way of using your "free will" to will to follow the advice and wisdom of the one who knows and loves all? ie to freely align your limited free will with the will of the one who knows and loves all.

Now regarding free choice. As alluded you only have a restricted set of alternatives to choose within the limits of your freedom. Choosing a president between a Democrat and a Republican is hardly the notion of a free choice, is it? (And democracy by the way is not the best of governments, but Churchill said, merely the least worst.)

So you can choose freely but your choice is not free in two senses of the word. First, as mentioned, you really cant choose just anything but only from a limited set of choices, which may not be real alternatives at all, and secondly there are consequences, and some choices come back to bite you.

87x 03-2-2004 10:47 AM

did you think of all this by yourself, or steal it from somewhere?? if you wrote it good job, it made a lot of since in many ways.... if you stole it.. good find, not much critical thinking to do on this because its already well thought out and explained in your post.. the best i can come up with is that when you said the butterfly in bali flapping its wings causes the tornado in kansas, thats called the chaos theory... and that you only get 3 wishes... you can't wish for more.. thats part of the stipulations of the wishes..

Specforces 03-2-2004 11:28 AM

The text is mine. Glad you like.

87X, sometimes I get really bored and sit here and type out some off the wall question or some deep thought question, hoping to spark some sort of thinking.

Anonymous 03-4-2004 05:08 AM

Its a nice start.

Unlike alot of similar discussions you seemed to steer it towards a more religeous line of thinking. The belief of a supreme being is always a vague subject at best and when combined with a philosophical view of "free will", it appears to become a sort of set of psuedo random thoughts. But, that's exactly what you did though right? =)

This question has been asked many times before and people usually end up along the lines of "If there is such a thing as fate, and everything is predetermined, then choice is an illusion and consciesce thought is just the catalyst for the formula." But when basing your logic on the thoery predetermined events, you must also realise that in order for this to be possible, time would also have to be an illusion. Reason being: if no choices exist and only one possible future is available, then it has already occurred because the properties of the past that ensure it are already in place and irrefutable. Thus, the ability of "free will" cannot exist and neither does time; they are merely tools for which to measure differences of events and explain a perfectly straight line of logic in a sequence of events. So you see, because you suggest the possibility that free will doesn't exist, you are also suggesting that everything is predetermined and unchangeable and also that time doesn't exist.

Does that make sense? If not, let me try to draw out the paradox clearer.

Quote:

Now does free means that there is an absence of conditioning, constraints and control over what we think, say and do? (And to be aware of and be able to set ourselves "free" from such in the first place.)
If conditioning eliminates the possibility of free will, then everything must be predetermined or else nothing could exist at all. If everything is predetermined, then time itself is an illusion, along with thought. I already explained this, no need to go into further detail.

Now, if we have full choice, or even partial choice (even the tiniest amount negates this), this doesn't apply in the least bit. Instead the world
is always changing on an unpredictable path along a jagged line with a continuity of proportional existence equal to one (I'm referencing the "one universe theory" if you weren't sure) with an unlimited set of possibilities and probabilities calculated at infinitessimal intervals on the infinite tablet of matter.

NOW, I've explained the paradox in your question, here comes the REAL question. If I DO have free will, and thoughts that are unique to my persona that DON'T come from environmental influences nor genetic predetermination, then where DOES this "IDENTITY" of me come from?

Answer that question, or heck, come up with a good non religeous theory and you can color me impressed.

Anonymous 03-4-2004 05:11 AM

Its a nice start.

Unlike alot of similar discussions you seemed to steer it towards a more religeous line of thinking. The belief of a supreme being is always a vague subject at best and when combined with a philosophical view of "free will", it appears to become a sort of set of psuedo random thoughts. But, that's exactly what you did though right? =)

This question has been asked many times before and people usually end up along the lines of "If there is such a thing as fate, and everything is predetermined, then choice is an illusion and consciesce thought is just the catalyst for the formula." But when basing your logic on the thoery predetermined events, you must also realise that in order for this to be possible, time would also have to be an illusion. Reason being: if no choices exist and only one possible future is available, then it has already occurred because the properties of the past that ensure it are already in place and irrefutable. Thus, the ability of "free will" cannot exist and neither does time; they are merely tools for which to measure differences of events and explain a perfectly straight line of logic in a sequence of events. So you see, because you suggest the possibility that free will doesn't exist, you are also suggesting that everything is predetermined and unchangeable and also that time doesn't exist.

Does that make sense? If not, let me try to draw out the paradox clearer.

Quote:

Now does free means that there is an absence of conditioning, constraints and control over what we think, say and do? (And to be aware of and be able to set ourselves "free" from such in the first place.)
If conditioning eliminates the possibility of free will, then everything must be predetermined or else nothing could exist at all. If everything is predetermined, then time itself is an illusion, along with thought. I already explained this, no need to go into further detail.

Now, if we have full choice, or even partial choice (even the tiniest amount negates this), this doesn't apply in the least bit. Instead the world
is always changing on an unpredictable path along a jagged line with a continuity of proportional existence equal to one (I'm referencing the "one universe theory" if you weren't sure) with an unlimited set of possibilities and probabilities calculated at infinitessimal intervals on the infinite tablet of matter.

NOW, I've explained the paradox in your question, here comes the REAL question. If I DO have free will, and thoughts that are unique to my persona that DON'T come from environmental influences nor genetic predetermination, then where DOES this "IDENTITY" of me come from?

Answer that question, or heck, come up with a good non religeous theory and you can color me impressed.

[Prophecy] 03-4-2004 06:10 AM

I must be having some sort of problem with cookies or perhaps the site has an odd quirk I'm not aware of. (I'm the "guest" that just doubple posted) Even though I signed in before posting and checked the "Log in automatically" box, it failed to associate the post I submitted as being from this screen name and ruled it as anonymous instead............any idea as to why this is? Also, with the double post, I clicked submit only once, and never hit refresh or anything, so I'm not sure how the double post occurred as well......... I made the mistake once on another forum, ( I wasn't thinking for some reason) but I was able to just delete it. As one cannot "login" to the universal anonymous identity, I'm unable to solve this on my own. Mods?

Yes, and continue the discussion, metaphysical theories are always a fun item for debate.

tsugaruknight 03-9-2004 10:23 PM

I think morons should have the free will to breathe in as much f'n oxygen as they damn well please. Yeesh.

Specforces 03-10-2004 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsugaruknight
I think morons should have the free will to breathe in as much f'n oxygen as they damn well please. Yeesh.

How about a little bit of no and a whole lot of stfu n00b?

VxDx 03-10-2004 07:18 PM

At first I thought this topic was about Free Willy. Now I realize that this topic should be about Free Willy.

makaveli121212 03-10-2004 09:40 PM

stfu nUb...btw specs = smart

Omeganitros 03-10-2004 09:53 PM

Good job, Spec. I might be able to find some point of view to disagree with you, but that would take too much thinking for my own lazy good.

Specforces 03-14-2004 08:48 AM

Thanks.

psychic25 03-16-2004 01:47 AM

Geez, this is really impressive...

Quote:

If I DO have free will, and thoughts that are unique to my persona that DON'T come from environmental influences nor genetic predetermination, then where DOES this "IDENTITY" of me come from?
Tell me if i'm wrong, these are just my thoughts...

I don't think "identity" is the right word. Identity in this world is based on what? Feelings, friendships, reactions to events, etc. right? In other words, perception by others. Others- that implies that there was an outside influence already, which goes against the question. I think a better word would be, "definition". (After like 10 minutes thinking of that word :-P) This "definition" would mean the foundation in this world.


The definition of yourself comes from randomness. Now, if this were religious, I would say it was that unquantifiable object called the soul. However...

Everything in the universe breaks down to randomness. Quantum physics says that we can only know one aspect of a subatomic particle at any given time. What would the other aspects be? Since they cannot be clearly defined, they would be, in a sense, more random than anything, since an unknown quantity defies order, and therefore definition. Since every object of matter in our universe breaks down to some aspect of randomness, or some subatomic particle, every object is random, and therefore, fate does not exist. Fate is the embodiment of order- impossible in a quantum universe.

Since your brain controls your body and provides your link with this world, and your brain is an object which breaks down to randomness, your definition is random as well, because your definition is based in your brain- again, the foundation in this world. Your choices are therefore random, since bodily choices originate in the brain. However, there is some restraint, because quantum physics lets you know one aspect of a particle, there is some knowledge of your possible actions.

To sum up, objects are random, your brain is random, your brain makes your link, so your link (definition) is random. Free will is near- randomness.

(I really, really hope that made sense. Please critique if necessary. )

Specforces 03-18-2004 09:14 AM

I believe identity does not exist, only created by our minds, which yearn some sort of closure, thus the reason why spirituality and religion were created.


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