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-   -   If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=67298)

coolade123 05-6-2007 11:02 AM

If A Tree Falls When Nobodys Around Does It Make A Sound?
 
No this is not a joke. I have been in some arguments with people about this question. If a tree falls does it make a sound? I, personally, believe there is no true answer to this. It depends on what you think sound is. If you think sound is sound waves traveling through the air than it does make a sound. If you think something has to intercept the sound waves than it wouldn't make a sound because nothing is there to intercept the sound the tree would make.

Discuss.

Edit: I meant to say when nobody is around sorry lol.

seththelezzy 05-6-2007 11:04 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
It does make a sound, regardless.

Cyanite 05-6-2007 11:10 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Yeah, you basically summed it up in the original post.

Sound is purely a human perception of sound waves. It will still produce the sound waves to cause a perception of the sound of a tree falling and crashing, there will just be nobody around to hear them.

However, since the sound waves are being produced regardless, I don't really know what side to take.

madmatt621 05-6-2007 11:13 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Here's your answer. YES, it does make a sound.

Read on: http://www.getodd.com/stuf/treefall.html

Engler 05-6-2007 11:16 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Yes, it will make a sound.

ffrrocksya 05-6-2007 11:24 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I believe most people would be thinking if it actually make a sound- like you would hear something. Knowing that most people would be wondering that way, yes it would make a sound. Not all people would be asking it that way though.

Overall, what people are expecting from it, they would here a sound.

Relambrien 05-6-2007 11:27 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
No, it will not make a sound. Sound requires three things:

1) A transmitter (something to create the vibrations/waves)
2) A medium (something for the waves to travel through)
3) A receiver (something to interpret the waves)

Until the vibrations are received and interpreted as sound, whether by an ear or a tape recorder, they are not sound. They are merely waves. Thus, if no one (and I include animals, tape recorders, anything that could interpret sound waves) is around to interpret the waves, the waves do not become sound.

There are still waves, but they are not sound until they are interpreted.

And no, I did not make this up. This was the response of a graduate of the United States Naval Academy specializing in oceanic physics, which sound plays a large part of.

sammo123 05-6-2007 11:28 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyanite (Post 1501714)
Yeah, you basically summed it up in the original post.

Sound is purely a human perception of sound waves. It will still produce the sound waves to cause a perception of the sound of a tree falling and crashing, there will just be nobody around to hear them.

However, since the sound waves are being produced regardless, I don't really know what side to take.

i take the side of no it doesnt make sound it just releases sound waves when it falls cause by vibrations, if no one is around to get the sound waves converted into sound then it wouldnt make a sound

Adamaja456 05-6-2007 11:35 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien (Post 1501745)
No, it will not make a sound. Sound requires three things:

1) A transmitter (something to create the vibrations/waves)
2) A medium (something for the waves to travel through)
3) A receiver (something to interpret the waves)

Until the vibrations are received and interpreted as sound, whether by an ear or a tape recorder, they are not sound. They are merely waves. Thus, if no one (and I include animals, tape recorders, anything that could interpret sound waves) is around to interpret the waves, the waves do not become sound.

There are still waves, but they are not sound until they are interpreted.

And no, I did not make this up. This was the response of a graduate of the United States Naval Academy specializing in oceanic physics, which sound plays a large part of.

come on, Trees usually fall in forests right?
It seems like you saying that there will be no animals to hear it. there will ALWAYS be an animal somewhere in the general place a tree falls down. if we as people dont hear it, im sure other animals can, so yes, trees do make a sound

Relambrien 05-6-2007 11:38 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamaja456 (Post 1501757)
come on, Trees usually fall in forests right?
It seems like you saying that there will be no animals to hear it. there will ALWAYS be an animal somewhere in the general place a tree falls down. if we as people dont hear it, im sure other animals can, so yes, trees do make a sound

You're forgetting the fact that the entire question is hypothetical. "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Obviously there will ALWAYS be someone or something around to hear it. This question is completely hypothetical and will never happen, therefore a hypothetical response that will never happen is acceptable.

tsugomaru 05-6-2007 11:41 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Oh come on, this can't possibly count as critical thinking. Also, there is nothing hypothetical about it.

My answer is yes, sound is a wave and when the tree hits the ground, a wave will be made. Sound is human perception? Are we to say that colors do not exist on some far away planet because they are all human perception and no one's there to see them? Light, like sound is a wave and will exist whether or not we're there to experience it.

~Tsugomaru

seththelezzy 05-6-2007 11:41 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien (Post 1501745)
No, it will not make a sound. Sound requires three things:

1) A transmitter (something to create the vibrations/waves)
2) A medium (something for the waves to travel through)
3) A receiver (something to interpret the waves)

Until the vibrations are received and interpreted as sound, whether by an ear or a tape recorder, they are not sound. They are merely waves. Thus, if no one (and I include animals, tape recorders, anything that could interpret sound waves) is around to interpret the waves, the waves do not become sound.

There are still waves, but they are not sound until they are interpreted.

And no, I did not make this up. This was the response of a graduate of the United States Naval Academy specializing in oceanic physics, which sound plays a large part of.

It will produce SOUND waves. Sound waves are sound, so yes it does. It doesn't matter if there's nothing to interpret it. It's still sound.

Relambrien 05-6-2007 11:47 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seththelezzy (Post 1501766)
It will produce SOUND waves. Sound waves are sound, so yes it does. It doesn't matter if there's nothing to interpret it. It's still sound.

Wrong. It will produce waves on a frequency that can be interpreted as sound. These are not sound until interpreted.

But I agree with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsugomaru
Oh come on, this can't possibly count as critical thinking.

I think we all agree that waves are produced, and the difficulty is in determining whether or not the waves are sound until interpreted. But hey, there's absolutely no way to test if they're sound before interpretation, because in doing so, we would be forced to interpret them.

As far as I'm concerned, this debate could go on forever and we'd never know exactly what happens. But I'm sticking by the answer of the oceanic physics specialist, because he's, you know, an oceanic physics specialist -.-

concertm 05-6-2007 11:47 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by madmatt621 (Post 1501717)
Here's your answer. YES, it does make a sound.

Read on: http://www.getodd.com/stuf/treefall.html

Everyone's pretty much saying the same thing...
Anyways, trees are getting stressed out because of us...

bluguerrilla 05-6-2007 11:49 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Nah, if no one is there to hear it then no one can even prove it existed. All we have is our intuition that "this tree was standing and now it's on the ground, it was probably loud when it fell" but that doesn't prove anything.

If nothing is there to measure it, it might as well not exist. Animals don't count unless that can tell you (once you get there) that the tree made a noise that scared it or whatever.

Personally, I think that it doesn't depend on your definition of sound.

Edit: Any site with "Ultraviolet Gasses" is automatically crap.

Edit: A better site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tr...ls_in_a_forest

solopro 05-6-2007 11:56 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Yes, it does make a sound.

When the tree is chopped down (or burnt down by lightning or whatever), it falls to Earth, then, on impact, there is a vibration, thus causing sound.

Like a bomb goes off about two or three miles away from you. You hear the bomb, if nobody is there to hear it.

OrganisM 05-6-2007 12:47 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by concertm (Post 1501775)
Everyone's pretty much saying the same thing...
Anyways, trees are getting stressed out because of us...

You do realize that that Get Odd site is a satire and parody site, right? :roll:

Verruckter 05-6-2007 12:50 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by madmatt621 (Post 1501717)
Here's your answer. YES, it does make a sound.

Read on: http://www.getodd.com/stuf/treefall.html

This article is bull****. There is no such thing as "UV Gas".

bluguerrilla 05-6-2007 01:00 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OrganisM (Post 1501869)
You do realize that that Get Odd site is a satire and parody site, right? :roll:

Lol, I didn't even realize. Wish I had though, it's hilarious.

OrganisM 05-6-2007 01:09 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Verruckter (Post 1501881)
This article is bull****. There is no such thing as "UV Gas".

...fail. Remember, this is a SATIRE website.

Verruckter 05-6-2007 01:11 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OrganisM (Post 1501929)
...fail. Remember, this is a SATIRE website.

Ah, my bad.

OrganisM 05-6-2007 01:25 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Verruckter (Post 1501936)
Ah, my bad.

It happens :P

And, I think there's really nothing to discuss here.

devonin 05-6-2007 04:30 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by solopro (Post 1501787)
Yes, it does make a sound.

Like a bomb goes off about two or three miles away from you. You hear the bomb, if nobody is there to hear it.

I just had to respond to this one, even though the actual topic of discussion is pretty much moot.

You've just stated in your example that you were sufficiently close to the travelling sound wavesto interpret them as being sound...that means someone -was- there to hear it.

If you are close enough to hear it, you're close enough to hear it (yay tautology)

sk8mastr 05-6-2007 06:01 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Just because nothing is there to hear the sound does not mean it does not make a sound...
its not like someone can fall and make a sound and then another time fall and make no sound... if someone has a scenario where that occurs i would love to hear about it

AriesMalvis 05-6-2007 06:04 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
watch family guy
episode 6

devonin 05-6-2007 06:10 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Just because nothing is there to hear the sound does not mean it does not make a sound...
its not like someone can fall and make a sound and then another time fall and make no sound... if someone has a scenario where that occurs i would love to hear about it
Quote:

Sound requires three things:

1) A transmitter (something to create the vibrations/waves)
2) A medium (something for the waves to travel through)
3) A receiver (something to interpret the waves)
In one case, there is a 1) and a 2) but no 3). In another, the identical 1) and 2), -and- a 3). You have no sound in case a, and sound in case b.

Squeek 05-6-2007 07:25 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
It's already been said why, but it's true. Sound requires a transmitter, a medium, and a receiver to be called "sound".

If you miss a step, they're just pressure waves.

So, no. If nobody is around to hear it, it does not make a sound.

angelofthedead 05-6-2007 10:15 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I'll give a dollar to whoever can guess how amny times I've been asked that question.

Tyren 05-7-2007 12:39 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Dont you think the phrase is a bit too symbolic and metaphorical for critical thinking to be done on its literal translation? The phrase has been beaten to death on whether it fits the proper syntax of "sound" but nowhere is it really considered what they intended to prove by asking the question itself.

It explains alot of similar ideas on whether "something happens" if noone is there to prove it ever occured. Take debating for example (considering this IS a critical thinking thread)...you dont necesarilly need to be correct in your arguement, as long as you can trump your opponent in discussion.Government conspiracies are littered with this type of concept of "if theres no evidence, it didnt happen", obviously giving these conspiracies their appeal to skeptics.

The same applies for whether a tree makes a sound if it hits the ground with nothing to hear it. It may have made a sound, may not have (regardless of what that word does or does not mean) but since there isnt anyone present the answer is all together irrelevent, and all that is left is interpretation of the truth.

Pippin667 05-7-2007 12:40 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seththelezzy (Post 1501704)
It does make a sound, regardless.

Logic

jamuko 05-7-2007 01:42 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Thanks, Tyren. I was honestly thinking the exact same thing as everyone else when I came to this thread, so I didn't post anything... but you've brought back the point that it's really getting at.

I'm not so sure about your debate example, but I think you've opened this up to more discussion nonetheless.

It's really a philosophical question about reality. We are merely humans with senses capable of giving us perceptions about our environment. If there is no perception, then to us, it is the same as if nothing was there. Our world consists entirely of our perceptions. We don't really know a desk to be a desk; it's simply a combination of how it looks when we see it, how it feels when we touch it, etc., and that's what we label "desk". If something were to somehow falsely give us the same perceptions of that space, we would also call it a desk, regardless of what true "reality" is.

Philosophy is kind of complicated and confusing to talk about, but hopefully what I said makes sense.

This kind of gets into "The Matrix"-type theories too. What is reality? How do we know that what we are experiencing IS "reality"? What we feel may seem as real as possible, but how can we prove it's not a dream?

"I had a dream that I was a butterfly. But when I woke up, I wondered if I was actually a butterfly dreaming of me."

What if there is no objective reality?

bluguerrilla 05-7-2007 01:50 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamuko (Post 1504640)
What if there is no objective reality?

Thank you!

devonin 05-7-2007 02:00 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Well, actually the question is (If I'm remembering correctly) a koan along the lines of 'what is the sound of one hand clapping?' I mean, the Simpsons demonstrated that one but misses the point completely.

If we approach the 'tree calls' question from a literal scientific standpoint, the earlier assertion about how it only makes a sound if there is a reciever to interpret the pressure waves as sound is true.

The philosophical portion of the question is, as mentioned above, designed to make you question the nature of reality, and whether you can believe that events can happen outside of intelligent observation. Quantum theory has just as much to say about this as Zen philosophy does, and is pretty much its own seperate thread as a question.

slipstrike0159 05-7-2007 06:51 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Reality in itself, for our sake, is basically just the general consensus of perception. Arguing whether or not we are experiencing reality is virtually pointless because in the general association with ones self and others around you will find a common sense of perception which gives you a firm grasp, or foothold rather, that you can start basing science off of.

As for those people who literally interpret this question and say no because no human was around to hear it, then what about sounds that only dogs can hear? We label them as sound without ever having heard it because of our difference in sound perception. I think for the most part we experience the effects of "sound" which lets us know it happened and that it existed (such as the whole dog whistle thing). So from this you deduce that sound was emitted because you could see the associated event that took place and from that result assume from all other previous experiences of perception that it did in fact create an audible sensation known as sound.

Relambrien 05-7-2007 07:10 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slipstrike0159 (Post 1505282)
Reality in itself, for our sake, is basically just the general consensus of perception. Arguing whether or not we are experiencing reality is virtually pointless because in the general association with ones self and others around you will find a common sense of perception which gives you a firm grasp, or foothold rather, that you can start basing science off of.

As for those people who literally interpret this question and say no because no human was around to hear it, then what about sounds that only dogs can hear? We label them as sound without ever having heard it because of our difference in sound perception. I think for the most part we experience the effects of "sound" which lets us know it happened and that it existed (such as the whole dog whistle thing). So from this you deduce that sound was emitted because you could see the associated event that took place and from that result assume from all other previous experiences of perception that it did in fact create an audible sensation known as sound.

The reason dog whistles create sound is because the three requirements of sound can be met...by dogs. A transmitter (the whistle), a medium (the air), and a receiver (the dog's ears) are all present. Thus, sound.

devonin 05-7-2007 07:12 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
When the question is posed saying "And nobody is around to hear it" they don't mean just and only humans. You could say "And nothing is present to recieve and interpret the waves" which makes for a much less catchy phrase but explains the situation far better.

Bear in mind once again though: The question as posed was philosophical, not literal, as evidence by the fact that the literal answer is so conclusive and easy to describe.

Relambrien 05-7-2007 07:16 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1505341)
Bear in mind once again though: The question as posed was philosophical, not literal, as evidence by the fact that the literal answer is so conclusive and easy to describe.

This is very true. And the Wikipedia article linked to earlier is an extremely comprehensive article describing the implications. All we have to go by is seeing a tree on the ground, so that by our perceptions of reality, it must have fallen and therefore hit the ground with enough force to create a vibration, which, had something been close enough, would have evolved into sound. This is an assumption because we have no way of knowing for sure.

xinpig 05-7-2007 07:21 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
think about this if i start playing an ffr song and then when i hear it i walk away and then it stops making a sound?

it still makes sound even though i am not there

BAM!!!

arelik 05-7-2007 11:30 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quoted from Wikipedia, the 'sound' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
"By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard by humans, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas."

The scientific definition of sound shows that a "receiver" is not required for it to exist.

slipstrike0159 05-8-2007 12:23 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien (Post 1505335)
The reason dog whistles create sound is because the three requirements of sound can be met...by dogs. A transmitter (the whistle), a medium (the air), and a receiver (the dog's ears) are all present. Thus, sound.

Read again... i said that for those that think that HUMANS have to be present.

devonin 05-8-2007 02:26 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arelik (Post 1506044)
Quoted from Wikipedia, the 'sound' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
"By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard by humans, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas."

The scientific definition of sound shows that a "receiver" is not required for it to exist.


Actually that definition says nothing of the sort. It says "Things can be sounds that are not able to be heard by humans" That says nothing about sound with no reciever. It says something about sound with no -human- reciever.

Shashakiro 05-8-2007 03:30 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
The answer is all based on the definition of sound that you use

If you define sound to require a reciever, it makes no sound. Otherwise, it does.

Not really much of a debate to be made there. Unless I'm mistaken, it's just two different interpretations of the word "sound", neither of which has any reason to be more correct than the other. I personally think the idea that sound waves have to have a receiver before becoming sound is a rather stupid one, and I'm not sure why anyone would define it that way, but that's just me.

Tyren 05-8-2007 01:41 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Arelik, It should also be taken into consideration that anyone can write on wikipedia, so one is only attaining a definition relative to the individual writing it, rather then as something that has been socially agreed upon.

arelik 05-8-2007 04:05 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1506360)
Actually that definition says nothing of the sort. It says "Things can be sounds that are not able to be heard by humans" That says nothing about sound with no reciever. It says something about sound with no -human- reciever.

Alright, then that means the tree DOES make a sound because the sound waves are received by everything around it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyren (Post 1506741)
Arelik, It should also be taken into consideration that anyone can write on wikipedia, so one is only attaining a definition relative to the individual writing it, rather then as something that has been socially agreed upon.

You're not quite right because the sound article is important and has been read by many people, and if something wasn't right or socially agreed upon it would be corrected. The fact that the text I quoted is in the 2nd paragraph and it's the definition of what the whole article is about makes the chances of it being wrong very small.

theinsomniacnimrod 05-8-2007 05:03 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arelik (Post 1506912)
You're not quite right because the sound article is important and has been read by many people, and if something wasn't right or socially agreed upon it would be corrected. The fact that the text I quoted is in the 2nd paragraph and it's the definition of what the whole article is about makes the chances of it being wrong very small.

Hmmm idk people spam wikipedia for fun - I mean, I looked up sedimentary rocks once and it said the source for their creation was "poop" - wikipedia is never a reliable source, no matter how convincing or obvious the answer is, and any professor or teacher will tell you that. Just because a lot of people believe something to be true does not make it so; if that was what we based science on we would have lots of problems...

But back to the topic, either way the tree has to hit the ground when it falls, producing vibrations - unless it falls in empty space - then we have a different scenario. The sound is there, but the human isn't. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thats like saying dinosaurs didn't exist just because we weren't around to see them. Humans aren't the center of all happenings and events in the universe...

devonin 05-8-2007 06:18 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arelik (Post 1506912)
Alright, then that means the tree DOES make a sound because the sound waves are received by everything around it.

Er...assuming there are things around that are equipped to recieve sound waves ie. things with say...inner ears.

arelik 05-8-2007 07:07 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Do you agree with the above definition or not? It says that vibrations that travel through all forms of matter are sound. If you agree then the tree does make a sound. If you don't then we are using different definitions of sound, like Shashakiro said.

slipstrike0159 05-8-2007 09:25 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1507102)
Er...assuming there are things around that are equipped to recieve sound waves ie. things with say...inner ears.

Actually even other trees have the ability to "recieve", so to say, the sound waves. It has been known that sound waves do affect certain factors in a plants growth meaning that it has the ability to interpret or even feel the vibrations that come with the noise. So unless a tree is floating in non existence and falls onto cement that surrounds it, then the only practical answer is that yes sound is produced even if you take into consideration a receiver.

devonin 05-8-2007 10:36 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Well, because it reacts to the pressure waves, that doesn't mean it is translating those pressure waves into sound waves. I imagine some kinetic energy is being produced to which things can show a reaction.

I mean, but even then..if the tree can act as a reciever for sound waves, then yes, a tree falling near it makes a sound. Nobody said the original question was supposed to say anything far-reaching about sound.

ledwix 05-9-2007 01:01 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
As said before, it depends on your definition of "sound." Personally, I think it's a little absurd not to consider the vibrations changing the air's density in a wave pattern a sound unless there is a receiver present.

If a tree falls, why does it stop? Energy caused by the fall is dissipated through heat and sound. There's going to be a certain amount of energy dissipated through heat and a certain amount through sound every time, regardless of who is watching. The tree won't automatically say, "Oh, since no one is around, I think I'll dissipate ALL of my kinetic energy into heat energy, rather than releasing any of it through transmission of a wave in the air. Screw sound this time around."

ashleychauntel 05-9-2007 03:19 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I think that everyone got a bit too into this question. I mean, if you are around and the tree falls, it makes a sound. Therefore, in the event that you are not there it also has to make a sound - it's not like a tree knows whether or not anyone is around waiting for it to fall. Just because no one is there doesn't mean a sound isn't made - it just means you weren't around to hear it.


If anyone really wants to know - set a camera up and record where you think a tree is going to fall, then watch it and listen. If you thought there wasn't a sound, prepare to feel stupid.



Just my 2am thoughts on the deal...

jewpinthethird 05-9-2007 03:46 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Obviously not.

Geez, don't you guys no anything. Soundwaves are produced by Jesus Magic...and Jesus only exists where there are people...so therefore no people = no Jesus:: no Jesus=no sound:: no people=no sound.

I use the Bible as my one and only source. And to prove the Bible's creditability I cite the Bible itself.

jamuko 05-9-2007 09:00 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I like how we got this open to more discussion on the philosophical side, but then it just went right back to the literal.

And Ashley, a sound or video recorder is considered "someone around to hear it".

No one is arguing against the physics that tell us that of course a tree would make the same sound regardless of who is there... the debate has two sides, the philosophical one where we question reality, and the literal one where we basically just question what we consider to be "sound".

g4z33b0 05-9-2007 09:53 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
There is nothing critical about this "thinking". Yes it makes a sound.

devonin 05-9-2007 11:53 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g4z33b0 (Post 1508379)
There is nothing critical about this "thinking". Yes it makes a sound.

Please refute the earlier logic that says that in order for "sound" to actually occur, you need a transmitter, a medium, and a reciever.

Quote:

If anyone really wants to know - set a camera up and record where you think a tree is going to fall, then watch it and listen. If you thought there wasn't a sound, prepare to feel stupid.
Well, in this example you have a transmitter (the tree falling) a medium (the air) and a reciever (the sound pickups of the camera). Sounds to me like you meet all three requirements of sound. Remove the reciever and you don't anymore.

g4z33b0 05-9-2007 12:26 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
When a tree falls and you hear it, it makes a sound. Every time. Scientifically, it makes so sense to say that just because the sound isn't heard that a sound won't be made. Sure I can't refute those statements, but logically speaking it seems pretty obvious that a sound occurs.

FyRe-AnT 05-9-2007 12:39 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
The tree will make a sound, the atmosphere around it would support the sound, and yea there is a sound but it is meaningless because there is nothing around to care ;)

The Mirror Image 05-9-2007 01:13 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Yes, a tree that falls in a forest makes a sound.
Just like when a wind blows across the artic, one COULD hear it, but there is nobody around to hear it.

Now if that tree hits a mime, that's hilarious, and no, then it WON'T make a sound. (Thanks to Gary Larson)

Lamoc 05-9-2007 02:11 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I say it doesn't. For something to be a sound, it has to be heard. If no one hears it, it can't be a sound.

jamuko 05-9-2007 03:16 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I like how people read the other posts.

devonin 05-9-2007 03:17 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Or even the -first- post, instead of just responding directly to the thread title.

jewpinthethird 05-9-2007 03:50 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
If there is no one there to hear the sound the tree makes when it falls, then it both does and doesn't make a sound.

Of course the tree, when it falls, is going to produce vibrations that are going to travel through the air, therefore the tree does make a sound. However, if no one or nothing is there to react to the vibrations the tree's falling produces (or rather, if no one hears it), then it doesn't make a sound in the audiological sense.

Despite all that mumbo-jumbo, a sound unheard is still a sound nonetheless.

Reach 05-11-2007 09:51 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Semantic nonsense...just define your terms to save everyone a whole lot of trouble.

The receiver thing is wrong. Sound is an energy disturbance in mechanical wave form. Sound as perceived through the sense of HEARING requires a receiver but this has nothing to do with the sound itself.

There are also many sounds humans are completely unable to hear, and yes, if there is a sound around you and you can't hear it, there is still a sound there. If you want a receiver that badly, you can think of the matter around the tree through which the sound propagates to be one or many receivers, since you do not need to interpret anything for there to be a sound.

The answer is yes, it does make a sound.

SpoOkyMagician 05-11-2007 10:09 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Well, at a logical view point, it WOULD make a sound. Even thou nobody is there to hear it. Everything has some kind of sound of hitting/banging aginst something. (ground/floor/etc.) But from the other point of view, i really do not agree with that it DOESNT make a sound. I explained it above. so yea... =|

Lamoc 05-11-2007 03:03 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Since when is nothing, something? Ok there are "sounds" that we can't hear. But if I can't hear it, it's not a sound. As far as i'm concerned, it doesn't exsist. You have to be able to hear something to have it be called a sound.

Reach 05-11-2007 07:41 PM

Re:If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamoc (Post 1512968)
Since when is nothing, something? Ok there are "sounds" that we can't hear. But if I can't hear it, it's not a sound. As far as i'm concerned, it doesn't exsist. You have to be able to hear something to have it be called a sound.

A sound wave isn't nothing...

And sorry, much like you can't see me right now, I do exist, and so do the sound waves you can't hear. This argument holds no water at all. Just because YOU can't happen to perceive something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If it did our communication systems wouldn't work very well.


But uh...

You're basically arguing this based on popular misuse of the word 'sound', which has to do with hearing.

A sound, in physics is vibratory disturbances in a gas, liquid, or solid medium and has nothing to do with perception. The question specifically asks if it makes 'a sound' which really doesn't imply the other use such as 'the sound of music'. Music is only our brains perception of mechanical waves. Its 'sound' is inherently incoded into the wave it is making, to the point where the 'sound of music' really is how the sound wave is constructed, because sounds are waves.

So yes, the tree does make sound.


But anyway, for the sake of slaying this:


It's a faulty question that purposely misleads people into arguing with eachother.

slipstrike0159 05-12-2007 12:45 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamoc (Post 1512968)
Since when is nothing, something? Ok there are "sounds" that we can't hear. But if I can't hear it, it's not a sound. As far as i'm concerned, it doesn't exsist. You have to be able to hear something to have it be called a sound.

Dont mistake being naive or oblivious with being right about perceptions in reality. Just because you cannot witness it first hand with your own perception through the senses doesnt mean it didnt or doesnt happen. Its like what reach said about communications, "as far as you would be concerned" history in all its entirety did not happen merely cause you specifically werent there to witness it.

Also, what if you are deaf? Just cause you cant hear sounds doesnt mean they arent there. Existing factual science cannot be discredited because of the difference in perception.

Nezeru 05-12-2007 01:04 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I have read the numerous arguments by the same two people saying that sound requires a receiver, and it seems pointless to argue with them as they are not going to change their opinion (and yes, it is an opinion).

1. Nobody cares what an oceanic physics specialist has to say about what is or isn't sound.
2. I still haven't read a reply to the comment about colors on another planet - are they colors if nobody's around to see them? Of course they are. They're on the visible spectrum, and if a person or other color-sensitive creature were there to see them, they would conclude that the colors are there. And guess what? Even if they turned away from the planet, they would still believe that the colors were there.

Here's another example. Say I fire a gun within 100 meters of another person. They will hear a sound. Will they then later think, "Well, maybe it only makes a sound when I'm around!"? If you honestly answer that with a 'yes,' then please stop reading my post and don't reply to it, because you're just going to be reposting the same thing as other people. So let's say this person thinks a gun only makes a sound when fired sometimes, and sets up an experiment in which a series of different kinds of guns are fired 10,000 times each. He will conclude that each and every time a gun successfully fires, it makes a sound. Does that mean that if some mechanism fires off a gun in space, it doesn't make a sound? Here you could argue that it doesn't, because there is no medium for the sound to travel. Except in the gun itself. So there is still sound, you would just have to have your ear pressed against the gun to hear it. (Please don't argue with me about the physics of being able to fire a gun in space, it's just an example.)

However, sound (which I am defining as waves that can be perceived as sound by some living being) does not change its kinetic form just because there's nobody around to hear it. Thus, yes, a tree that falls in a forest makes a sound.

lord_carbo 05-13-2007 12:14 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
"...the nature of our Universe is determined by the existence and, more particularly, by the number of intelligent beings that exists in it."

http://www.scitizen.com/screens/blog...ntribution=271

AquaTeen 01-19-2009 06:00 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
If it makes sound wave vibrations it makes a noise. So when the tree falls it causes vibrating sound waves so it makes a noise.


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