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-   -   If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=67298)

devonin 05-8-2007 02:26 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arelik (Post 1506044)
Quoted from Wikipedia, the 'sound' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
"By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard by humans, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas."

The scientific definition of sound shows that a "receiver" is not required for it to exist.


Actually that definition says nothing of the sort. It says "Things can be sounds that are not able to be heard by humans" That says nothing about sound with no reciever. It says something about sound with no -human- reciever.

Shashakiro 05-8-2007 03:30 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
The answer is all based on the definition of sound that you use

If you define sound to require a reciever, it makes no sound. Otherwise, it does.

Not really much of a debate to be made there. Unless I'm mistaken, it's just two different interpretations of the word "sound", neither of which has any reason to be more correct than the other. I personally think the idea that sound waves have to have a receiver before becoming sound is a rather stupid one, and I'm not sure why anyone would define it that way, but that's just me.

Tyren 05-8-2007 01:41 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Arelik, It should also be taken into consideration that anyone can write on wikipedia, so one is only attaining a definition relative to the individual writing it, rather then as something that has been socially agreed upon.

arelik 05-8-2007 04:05 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1506360)
Actually that definition says nothing of the sort. It says "Things can be sounds that are not able to be heard by humans" That says nothing about sound with no reciever. It says something about sound with no -human- reciever.

Alright, then that means the tree DOES make a sound because the sound waves are received by everything around it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyren (Post 1506741)
Arelik, It should also be taken into consideration that anyone can write on wikipedia, so one is only attaining a definition relative to the individual writing it, rather then as something that has been socially agreed upon.

You're not quite right because the sound article is important and has been read by many people, and if something wasn't right or socially agreed upon it would be corrected. The fact that the text I quoted is in the 2nd paragraph and it's the definition of what the whole article is about makes the chances of it being wrong very small.

theinsomniacnimrod 05-8-2007 05:03 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arelik (Post 1506912)
You're not quite right because the sound article is important and has been read by many people, and if something wasn't right or socially agreed upon it would be corrected. The fact that the text I quoted is in the 2nd paragraph and it's the definition of what the whole article is about makes the chances of it being wrong very small.

Hmmm idk people spam wikipedia for fun - I mean, I looked up sedimentary rocks once and it said the source for their creation was "poop" - wikipedia is never a reliable source, no matter how convincing or obvious the answer is, and any professor or teacher will tell you that. Just because a lot of people believe something to be true does not make it so; if that was what we based science on we would have lots of problems...

But back to the topic, either way the tree has to hit the ground when it falls, producing vibrations - unless it falls in empty space - then we have a different scenario. The sound is there, but the human isn't. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thats like saying dinosaurs didn't exist just because we weren't around to see them. Humans aren't the center of all happenings and events in the universe...

devonin 05-8-2007 06:18 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arelik (Post 1506912)
Alright, then that means the tree DOES make a sound because the sound waves are received by everything around it.

Er...assuming there are things around that are equipped to recieve sound waves ie. things with say...inner ears.

arelik 05-8-2007 07:07 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Do you agree with the above definition or not? It says that vibrations that travel through all forms of matter are sound. If you agree then the tree does make a sound. If you don't then we are using different definitions of sound, like Shashakiro said.

slipstrike0159 05-8-2007 09:25 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1507102)
Er...assuming there are things around that are equipped to recieve sound waves ie. things with say...inner ears.

Actually even other trees have the ability to "recieve", so to say, the sound waves. It has been known that sound waves do affect certain factors in a plants growth meaning that it has the ability to interpret or even feel the vibrations that come with the noise. So unless a tree is floating in non existence and falls onto cement that surrounds it, then the only practical answer is that yes sound is produced even if you take into consideration a receiver.

devonin 05-8-2007 10:36 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Well, because it reacts to the pressure waves, that doesn't mean it is translating those pressure waves into sound waves. I imagine some kinetic energy is being produced to which things can show a reaction.

I mean, but even then..if the tree can act as a reciever for sound waves, then yes, a tree falling near it makes a sound. Nobody said the original question was supposed to say anything far-reaching about sound.

ledwix 05-9-2007 01:01 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
As said before, it depends on your definition of "sound." Personally, I think it's a little absurd not to consider the vibrations changing the air's density in a wave pattern a sound unless there is a receiver present.

If a tree falls, why does it stop? Energy caused by the fall is dissipated through heat and sound. There's going to be a certain amount of energy dissipated through heat and a certain amount through sound every time, regardless of who is watching. The tree won't automatically say, "Oh, since no one is around, I think I'll dissipate ALL of my kinetic energy into heat energy, rather than releasing any of it through transmission of a wave in the air. Screw sound this time around."

ashleychauntel 05-9-2007 03:19 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I think that everyone got a bit too into this question. I mean, if you are around and the tree falls, it makes a sound. Therefore, in the event that you are not there it also has to make a sound - it's not like a tree knows whether or not anyone is around waiting for it to fall. Just because no one is there doesn't mean a sound isn't made - it just means you weren't around to hear it.


If anyone really wants to know - set a camera up and record where you think a tree is going to fall, then watch it and listen. If you thought there wasn't a sound, prepare to feel stupid.



Just my 2am thoughts on the deal...

jewpinthethird 05-9-2007 03:46 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Obviously not.

Geez, don't you guys no anything. Soundwaves are produced by Jesus Magic...and Jesus only exists where there are people...so therefore no people = no Jesus:: no Jesus=no sound:: no people=no sound.

I use the Bible as my one and only source. And to prove the Bible's creditability I cite the Bible itself.

jamuko 05-9-2007 09:00 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I like how we got this open to more discussion on the philosophical side, but then it just went right back to the literal.

And Ashley, a sound or video recorder is considered "someone around to hear it".

No one is arguing against the physics that tell us that of course a tree would make the same sound regardless of who is there... the debate has two sides, the philosophical one where we question reality, and the literal one where we basically just question what we consider to be "sound".

g4z33b0 05-9-2007 09:53 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
There is nothing critical about this "thinking". Yes it makes a sound.

devonin 05-9-2007 11:53 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by g4z33b0 (Post 1508379)
There is nothing critical about this "thinking". Yes it makes a sound.

Please refute the earlier logic that says that in order for "sound" to actually occur, you need a transmitter, a medium, and a reciever.

Quote:

If anyone really wants to know - set a camera up and record where you think a tree is going to fall, then watch it and listen. If you thought there wasn't a sound, prepare to feel stupid.
Well, in this example you have a transmitter (the tree falling) a medium (the air) and a reciever (the sound pickups of the camera). Sounds to me like you meet all three requirements of sound. Remove the reciever and you don't anymore.

g4z33b0 05-9-2007 12:26 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
When a tree falls and you hear it, it makes a sound. Every time. Scientifically, it makes so sense to say that just because the sound isn't heard that a sound won't be made. Sure I can't refute those statements, but logically speaking it seems pretty obvious that a sound occurs.

FyRe-AnT 05-9-2007 12:39 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
The tree will make a sound, the atmosphere around it would support the sound, and yea there is a sound but it is meaningless because there is nothing around to care ;)

The Mirror Image 05-9-2007 01:13 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Yes, a tree that falls in a forest makes a sound.
Just like when a wind blows across the artic, one COULD hear it, but there is nobody around to hear it.

Now if that tree hits a mime, that's hilarious, and no, then it WON'T make a sound. (Thanks to Gary Larson)

Lamoc 05-9-2007 02:11 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I say it doesn't. For something to be a sound, it has to be heard. If no one hears it, it can't be a sound.

jamuko 05-9-2007 03:16 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I like how people read the other posts.


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