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-   -   If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=67298)

Verruckter 05-6-2007 01:11 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OrganisM (Post 1501929)
...fail. Remember, this is a SATIRE website.

Ah, my bad.

OrganisM 05-6-2007 01:25 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Verruckter (Post 1501936)
Ah, my bad.

It happens :P

And, I think there's really nothing to discuss here.

devonin 05-6-2007 04:30 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by solopro (Post 1501787)
Yes, it does make a sound.

Like a bomb goes off about two or three miles away from you. You hear the bomb, if nobody is there to hear it.

I just had to respond to this one, even though the actual topic of discussion is pretty much moot.

You've just stated in your example that you were sufficiently close to the travelling sound wavesto interpret them as being sound...that means someone -was- there to hear it.

If you are close enough to hear it, you're close enough to hear it (yay tautology)

sk8mastr 05-6-2007 06:01 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Just because nothing is there to hear the sound does not mean it does not make a sound...
its not like someone can fall and make a sound and then another time fall and make no sound... if someone has a scenario where that occurs i would love to hear about it

AriesMalvis 05-6-2007 06:04 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
watch family guy
episode 6

devonin 05-6-2007 06:10 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Just because nothing is there to hear the sound does not mean it does not make a sound...
its not like someone can fall and make a sound and then another time fall and make no sound... if someone has a scenario where that occurs i would love to hear about it
Quote:

Sound requires three things:

1) A transmitter (something to create the vibrations/waves)
2) A medium (something for the waves to travel through)
3) A receiver (something to interpret the waves)
In one case, there is a 1) and a 2) but no 3). In another, the identical 1) and 2), -and- a 3). You have no sound in case a, and sound in case b.

Squeek 05-6-2007 07:25 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
It's already been said why, but it's true. Sound requires a transmitter, a medium, and a receiver to be called "sound".

If you miss a step, they're just pressure waves.

So, no. If nobody is around to hear it, it does not make a sound.

angelofthedead 05-6-2007 10:15 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
I'll give a dollar to whoever can guess how amny times I've been asked that question.

Tyren 05-7-2007 12:39 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Dont you think the phrase is a bit too symbolic and metaphorical for critical thinking to be done on its literal translation? The phrase has been beaten to death on whether it fits the proper syntax of "sound" but nowhere is it really considered what they intended to prove by asking the question itself.

It explains alot of similar ideas on whether "something happens" if noone is there to prove it ever occured. Take debating for example (considering this IS a critical thinking thread)...you dont necesarilly need to be correct in your arguement, as long as you can trump your opponent in discussion.Government conspiracies are littered with this type of concept of "if theres no evidence, it didnt happen", obviously giving these conspiracies their appeal to skeptics.

The same applies for whether a tree makes a sound if it hits the ground with nothing to hear it. It may have made a sound, may not have (regardless of what that word does or does not mean) but since there isnt anyone present the answer is all together irrelevent, and all that is left is interpretation of the truth.

Pippin667 05-7-2007 12:40 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seththelezzy (Post 1501704)
It does make a sound, regardless.

Logic

jamuko 05-7-2007 01:42 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Thanks, Tyren. I was honestly thinking the exact same thing as everyone else when I came to this thread, so I didn't post anything... but you've brought back the point that it's really getting at.

I'm not so sure about your debate example, but I think you've opened this up to more discussion nonetheless.

It's really a philosophical question about reality. We are merely humans with senses capable of giving us perceptions about our environment. If there is no perception, then to us, it is the same as if nothing was there. Our world consists entirely of our perceptions. We don't really know a desk to be a desk; it's simply a combination of how it looks when we see it, how it feels when we touch it, etc., and that's what we label "desk". If something were to somehow falsely give us the same perceptions of that space, we would also call it a desk, regardless of what true "reality" is.

Philosophy is kind of complicated and confusing to talk about, but hopefully what I said makes sense.

This kind of gets into "The Matrix"-type theories too. What is reality? How do we know that what we are experiencing IS "reality"? What we feel may seem as real as possible, but how can we prove it's not a dream?

"I had a dream that I was a butterfly. But when I woke up, I wondered if I was actually a butterfly dreaming of me."

What if there is no objective reality?

bluguerrilla 05-7-2007 01:50 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamuko (Post 1504640)
What if there is no objective reality?

Thank you!

devonin 05-7-2007 02:00 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Well, actually the question is (If I'm remembering correctly) a koan along the lines of 'what is the sound of one hand clapping?' I mean, the Simpsons demonstrated that one but misses the point completely.

If we approach the 'tree calls' question from a literal scientific standpoint, the earlier assertion about how it only makes a sound if there is a reciever to interpret the pressure waves as sound is true.

The philosophical portion of the question is, as mentioned above, designed to make you question the nature of reality, and whether you can believe that events can happen outside of intelligent observation. Quantum theory has just as much to say about this as Zen philosophy does, and is pretty much its own seperate thread as a question.

slipstrike0159 05-7-2007 06:51 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Reality in itself, for our sake, is basically just the general consensus of perception. Arguing whether or not we are experiencing reality is virtually pointless because in the general association with ones self and others around you will find a common sense of perception which gives you a firm grasp, or foothold rather, that you can start basing science off of.

As for those people who literally interpret this question and say no because no human was around to hear it, then what about sounds that only dogs can hear? We label them as sound without ever having heard it because of our difference in sound perception. I think for the most part we experience the effects of "sound" which lets us know it happened and that it existed (such as the whole dog whistle thing). So from this you deduce that sound was emitted because you could see the associated event that took place and from that result assume from all other previous experiences of perception that it did in fact create an audible sensation known as sound.

Relambrien 05-7-2007 07:10 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slipstrike0159 (Post 1505282)
Reality in itself, for our sake, is basically just the general consensus of perception. Arguing whether or not we are experiencing reality is virtually pointless because in the general association with ones self and others around you will find a common sense of perception which gives you a firm grasp, or foothold rather, that you can start basing science off of.

As for those people who literally interpret this question and say no because no human was around to hear it, then what about sounds that only dogs can hear? We label them as sound without ever having heard it because of our difference in sound perception. I think for the most part we experience the effects of "sound" which lets us know it happened and that it existed (such as the whole dog whistle thing). So from this you deduce that sound was emitted because you could see the associated event that took place and from that result assume from all other previous experiences of perception that it did in fact create an audible sensation known as sound.

The reason dog whistles create sound is because the three requirements of sound can be met...by dogs. A transmitter (the whistle), a medium (the air), and a receiver (the dog's ears) are all present. Thus, sound.

devonin 05-7-2007 07:12 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
When the question is posed saying "And nobody is around to hear it" they don't mean just and only humans. You could say "And nothing is present to recieve and interpret the waves" which makes for a much less catchy phrase but explains the situation far better.

Bear in mind once again though: The question as posed was philosophical, not literal, as evidence by the fact that the literal answer is so conclusive and easy to describe.

Relambrien 05-7-2007 07:16 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 1505341)
Bear in mind once again though: The question as posed was philosophical, not literal, as evidence by the fact that the literal answer is so conclusive and easy to describe.

This is very true. And the Wikipedia article linked to earlier is an extremely comprehensive article describing the implications. All we have to go by is seeing a tree on the ground, so that by our perceptions of reality, it must have fallen and therefore hit the ground with enough force to create a vibration, which, had something been close enough, would have evolved into sound. This is an assumption because we have no way of knowing for sure.

xinpig 05-7-2007 07:21 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
think about this if i start playing an ffr song and then when i hear it i walk away and then it stops making a sound?

it still makes sound even though i am not there

BAM!!!

arelik 05-7-2007 11:30 PM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quoted from Wikipedia, the 'sound' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
"By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard by humans, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas."

The scientific definition of sound shows that a "receiver" is not required for it to exist.

slipstrike0159 05-8-2007 12:23 AM

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien (Post 1505335)
The reason dog whistles create sound is because the three requirements of sound can be met...by dogs. A transmitter (the whistle), a medium (the air), and a receiver (the dog's ears) are all present. Thus, sound.

Read again... i said that for those that think that HUMANS have to be present.


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