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-   -   Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=59767)

coberst 02-7-2007 10:22 AM

Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?

“It seems that the majority of men are suggestible, half-awake children, willing to surrender their will to anyone who speaks with a voice that is threatening or sweet enough to sway them.”—Fromm

If we, women and men, are merely sheep then why is our history so different from a sheep-like society? Even the half-awake child will note that our history has been written in blood. Such a situation has led people, such as Hobbes, to say “man is a wolf to his fellow man”.

Is it our true nature to be wolves and only inhibitions prevent us from exposing our fangs? I do not think so, for there are countless opportunities each day to bare our vicious fangs if such was our nature. There are many possible explanations for this conundrum.

Building things only to destroy them and killing others seems to be our human purpose. But massive destruction and killing are really the result of leaders who seek to further their own interests. These leaders are no different from you or I; it is the power they hold that makes it possible for them to escalate the ordinary selfish motives we all harbor. “The ordinary man with extraordinary power is the chief danger for mankind—not the fiend or the sadist.”

Of course Hitler alone did not threaten civilization; he required the herd of citizens who harbored passions of hate and fear to act as an accomplice to destruction and death. Fromm sites the three forms of human orientation as being the fault that makes such a history of destruction possible.

A ‘syndrome of decay’ that “prompts men to destroy for the sake of destruction, and to hate for the sake of hate” form the basis for “the most vicious and dangerous form of human orientation; these are love of death, malignant narcissisms, and symbiotic-incestuous fixation.”

Would you say that humans resemble more as wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?

Ideas and quotes from “The Heart of Man: Its Genius for Good and Evil” by Erich Fromm

Kilroy_x 02-7-2007 11:50 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Good questions. I'm in the middle of "the anatomy of human destructiveness" right now. You've kind of answered them yourself already though. Human beings are half-awake children, and this disposition is what allows them their wolf like nature from socio-psychological factors.

coberst 02-8-2007 08:28 AM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Kilroy, what are these "wolf like nature from socio-psychological factors"? Is it what we see in the nature of capitalism?

Kilroy_x 02-8-2007 04:18 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Not neccesarily. The presumed role of capitalism in prolonging the "predatory phase of human development" as various socialists with lamarckian delusions have labeled it, is a non-issue. We can see quite clearly that the wolf like nature is present in all of the human populace, and its excessive presence in environments like Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia demonstrate capitalism has very little to do with it's promotion, and perhaps even the opposite. As you see, Capitalism is individualist. It promotes selfishness, which has the odd effect of countering the syndrome of decay by forcing human beings to interact symbolically through the proxy of self. In this way agression is not channeled by outsiders as easily towards destructive ends.

coberst 02-8-2007 05:41 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Kilroy

I have been studying "Beyond Alienation" by Ernest Becker who disagrees with you. The problem is not that humans have an evil nature but that the society they have created is conducive to that evil behavior. Becker devotes 50 pages to show that psychology, sociology, and psychiatry agree that human nature is neutral and that the problem results from the society we have created.

Kilroy_x 02-9-2007 01:08 AM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
I have not read becker. However, the notion that human beings are channeled towards evil by society is a moot point. This happens in every society, and happens predominately in more developed societies. Hunter-Gatherer societies universally have the least problems, going up to Pastoral societies, then up to agrarian societies, until we reach industrial societies. Along this path various negative things also increase, like sexism, class divisions, warfare, etc. The "blank slate" human being is contested in all three fields, btw. Usually the more modest components of that, such as the critical stage theory, are what are widely accepted.

It's fine to say society has a huge effect on individual human beings, or even that human beings are a product of society. However, the problems of society are not problems of capitalism, nor socialism, but rather of the type of lifestyle to which human beings have maladapted themselves on the large.

coberst 02-9-2007 07:03 AM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Kilroy

I must disagree with your statement “However, the notion that human beings are channeled towards evil by society is a moot point.” This is the essential point. If the evil we see in history resulting from human behavior is inherent in our genes, any attempt to change must be based upon this reality. If, however, this evil is a result of the society we have created and that humans genetically are neutral then we have a different problem.

It seems to me that we now know that humans are not genetically evil but are neutral. Our problem is to recognize this and to change the social structures that we have created that cause these evil acts.

Kilroy_x 02-9-2007 12:30 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
That would require a return to primitivism, which is unfeasible.

On another side note, evolutionary psychology actually has a number of explanations for evil behavior based on perceived benefits. Sociopathy, for instance, is sometimes explained as an adaptive mechanism to promote breeding by eliminating competition.

coberst 02-9-2007 04:45 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 1171570)
That would require a return to primitivism, which is unfeasible.

On another side note, evolutionary psychology actually has a number of explanations for evil behavior based on perceived benefits. Sociopathy, for instance, is sometimes explained as an adaptive mechanism to promote breeding by eliminating competition.


Nonsense. What it would require is that a significant % of the adult population get an intellectual life.

Vishnal 02-9-2007 05:16 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coberst (Post 1165394)
Lots of tuff.

This is a great topic. I find that we all have a little of all three inside us. May I cite examples?

Wolves: We tend to relish competition, and we consistently sharpen our talons and fangs by crushing others who dare challenge us. That is, if we're not the victims.

Sheep: Ever hear of a little something called peer pressure? Sheep are known as the, quote, "followers."

Children: Not only do these fall under the passive, non-resistant force, they are also the ones who take the world and its wonders for granted. Do we always appreciate what we have? No. We yearn to be a child forever, but waste that precious, irreplacable time.

All in all, think about it. Do you love competition? Do you fall victim to the pressure of the popular majority? Are you passive and feel you wasted your youth?

Likely, you will answer yes to each. If not, I believe you haven't fully examined yourself.

aperson 02-9-2007 08:18 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coberst (Post 1170728)
It seems to me that we now know that humans are not genetically evil but are neutral. Our problem is to recognize this and to change the social structures that we have created that cause these evil acts.

I don't get it. 'Evilness' and 'Neutrality' as they stand above are socially created concepts. I do not believe that any society would even have to develop a model of these two concepts, and even if they did, their conceptual models would probably not be the same.

You're trying to examine the true nature of human beings by measuring them in units based on social constructs... What?

coberst 02-10-2007 03:58 AM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
The question is does this generation, your generation, have the greatness of the generation that fought WWII. Your generation is being called upon to display some greatness; if it does not step up to this demand it may be the last hope. Humans are playing with matches while sitting in a pool of gasoline. Is there any people of quality in your generation to take on the task?

coberst 02-10-2007 03:59 AM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
The question is does this generation, your generation, have the greatness of the generation that fought WWII. Your generation is being called upon to display some greatness; if it does not step up to this demand it may be the last hope. Humans are playing with matches while sitting in a pool of gasoline. Are there any people of quality in your generation to take on the task?

Reach 02-10-2007 09:53 AM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
The act of war itself to me does not shed even an ounce of greatness.

I'm trying to understand what exactly you mean by 'greatness' here, because aperson makes a good point.

Kilroy_x 02-10-2007 01:31 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coberst (Post 1172630)
Nonsense. What it would require is that a significant % of the adult population get an intellectual life.

I'm not sure that would help. While promoting understanding is a good thing in general, it wouldn't neccessarily improve society. First of all, intellectualism isn't entirely pragmatic. It doesn't by itself advance the state of society in most forms. Surely applied sciences do, even soft sciences such as psychology and sociology, but unless practiced, and unless researched in optimal environments such as graduate school, they don't have the same effect. I.E. , amateur intellectualism isn't guaranteed to have the same benefits as other kinds.

Also, intellectualism doesn't rule out violence or negativity. Both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had a high percent of the populace educated, leading up to their sordid state of affairs and to lesser degree during them.

The fact of the matter is that most of the evil that occurs in this world does so because society is complicated enough to give it room to do so. This is true regardless of level of education, or of economic structure. Contrarily if you look like societies like the Amish, or the few populations of hunter-gatherers that still exist without too much interference from other societies, you will see they have almost no such problems.

This isn't to say, of course, that evil cannot be reduced, simply that it seems to be a common and perhaps neccessary component of societies that carry a great deal of complexity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coberst (Post 1174567)
The question is does this generation, your generation, have the greatness of the generation that fought WWII. Your generation is being called upon to display some greatness; if it does not step up to this demand it may be the last hope. Humans are playing with matches while sitting in a pool of gasoline. Are there any people of quality in your generation to take on the task?

I agree Reach and aperson. Please define what you mean by greatness. Also, please be more specific and less allegorical about what exactly "playing with matches while sitting in a pool of gasoline" entails.

coberst 02-10-2007 01:58 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reach (Post 1174673)
The act of war itself to me does not shed even an ounce of greatness.

I'm trying to understand what exactly you mean by 'greatness' here, because aperson makes a good point.


The world was in a war to save civilization in the years 1939 to 1945. The men and women who fought that war saved us all and they did it with courage and dignity.

It is important to comprehend history to understand today. There is a book "The Greatest Generation" that speaks specifically about why that generation is considered by many as the Greatest. Your generation is now being called forward to become intellectually sophisticated so that you might be able to prevent my generation from destroying human kind.

coberst 02-10-2007 02:01 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Kilroy

History, history, history you must begin to read history so that you can comprehend these fundamental facts. A few words on a forum cannot enlighten you, only books can do that.

Kilroy_x 02-10-2007 03:09 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Well that's a cowards way of defending himself, but ok. Any specific book reccommendations?

coberst 02-10-2007 06:02 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 1175124)
Well that's a cowards way of defending himself, but ok. Any specific book reccommendations?

Start with history of WWII, WWI, and if you are an American, then the American Civil War. Follow your interests. You will discover that it will become the most delightful hobby you will ever have.

aperson 02-10-2007 06:52 PM

Re: Are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coberst (Post 1174987)
The world was in a war to save civilization in the years 1939 to 1945. The men and women who fought that war saved us all and they did it with courage and dignity.

It is important to comprehend history to understand today. There is a book "The Greatest Generation" that speaks specifically about why that generation is considered by many as the Greatest. Your generation is now being called forward to become intellectually sophisticated so that you might be able to prevent my generation from destroying human kind.

That's pretty ethnocentric. We're the greatest generation? Greatest in what? We're a single generation in a single region of space with millions of generations to come before and after us. Civilizations will come and go; countries will rise and fall, that's the inevitability of time.

Maybe intellectual sophists like you should understand your own direction before you attempt to guide others.


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