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-   -   The Political Game: Abortion/Murder (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=5335)

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 08:14 PM

The Political Game: Abortion/Murder
 
so this guy is pissed and kills his wife and unbrn child...and guess what? hes charged for, 2, yes 2 murders...but wait when a woman kills her unborn child, its legal, and unpunishable...your thoughts

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:32 PM

Hmm...that's actually a good topic. I'll adress each one separately.

I don't believe abortion is murder. First off, there's a limit to how late you can do it, so you abort two days after conception you're just stopping a bunch of cells from growing. You shed thousands of dead skin cells a day, and kill thousands more, so unless you want to count all of them as murders also...
Plus, look at abortion this way. Say a mother gets pregnant and doesn't abort, but can't afford another baby. So she either abandons the baby after its born to die (worse), leads it in a life of poverty and sickness (worse) or in extreme situations, sells it to an organ farm or something (much worse).

As for the murder of them, I'm assuming at the time of death the baby was nearly complete in its growth, in which case it would have the first inklings of conciousness, but beyond that its what it might have been that matters. The baby would have been born, and would have lead a life, so technically its still killing.

willson13 12-13-2003 08:34 PM

Wow. So many different opinions on this one. Here goes.

Honestly, I disagree with abortion. If the woman is careless enough to sleep around, she needs to be aware that when a SPERM meets an EGG there is a BABY. If she can't handle that, then maybe more than one condom is necessary. I don't really consider myself a very religious person, so I'm not taking this from a religious standpoint, but we all have morals, and one of mine is to NOT kill an unborn child if it's not wanted.

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:35 PM

What if the woman is responsible, though? What if she did use a condom, and it was with her husband, but the condom broke? She's not being careless, but she can't afford a baby. What then?

willson13 12-13-2003 08:37 PM

It depends on the stage of the baby within the womb.

willson13 12-13-2003 08:37 PM

Like you said, it it's just some embryo, do whatever the hell you want with it, but an actual fetus? That's just, ewwww.

jewpinthethird 12-13-2003 08:39 PM

Or what if the woman was raped? What then?

Until you have seen the results of an unwanted child born into a family who is barely getting by, you have no right to say anything.

"Keep your Rosaries off my ovaries."

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:39 PM

That's why there are laws against aborting after the first cycle of the pregnancy unless it endangers the mother's health, or some other circumstance that would require abortion.

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 08:39 PM

i dont know the specifics of the case...i should have known before i posted, but i can look it up...but to say that it would have a life, isnt right, i mean an aborted child would have a life too...what you are syaing makes sense that if a family cannot economically support the child. but what if they can, they still have a right to an abortion...yes you are stopping cells form growing, well not grwoing, multiplying...but you dont abort two days after conception...its ussually around, someone help me out here, 3 months...the baby is cut out of the womb and stabbed in the back of the head...also that poor mother could always put him/her up for adoption...in my mind everyone has the right to live, and so does each baby, born or uborn i dont care...killing is murder...if that man is charged for two murders, then so should every woman that has gotten an abortion

willson13 12-13-2003 08:40 PM

If she's raped, put it up for adoption. I know that most adoption agencies don't really need more kids, but it's better than killing them. But if they can support a kid, there's no reason to abort.

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:42 PM

But if its nothing but a few cells, its not really killing anything since it doesn't have a concious mind of any sort. And like you said, we don't need more starving, poverty-ridden kids filling up adoption agencies when there's only so many parents out there to take them.

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 08:43 PM

you cant detect and remove only a few cells it is impossible, what you are talking about is ludacris

willson13 12-13-2003 08:44 PM

Yeah, I agree with the cell thing. Like Anti said with that analogy, which btw was a very nice one, we kill more than just a few cells every day. It's not necessarily impossible. After all, it's going to be in the uterus (sp), we all know that, it may be a little hard to find, but if you let it develop just a little while longer, it'll be possible.

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 08:46 PM

don you get it, abortions dont take place early in the pregnancy, ever

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:47 PM

Except...they actually do. They have a thing called the 'morning after' pill, which aborts the pregnancy if taken within two days of unprotected sex.

willson13 12-13-2003 08:47 PM

Not certain types of abortions. And like I said, if you let it develop enough to actually see it, you can get rid of it before it's actually "human like".

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 08:48 PM

how

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:49 PM

Jesus and black magic.

It's possible, I know that much.

jewpinthethird 12-13-2003 08:50 PM

Whether you like it or not, abortion will always be an option. Whether it is right or wrong, will find out in the afterlife.

Just remember back to when abortion was outlawed. Hundreds of mothers were killed in home made abortion clinics.

willson13 12-13-2003 08:52 PM

That's just like everything else. We can't outlaw it for that reason. Just like the Prohibition, people never quit doing it. I DO think it's wrong, but I DON'T think it should be illegal.

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:55 PM

Well...if its not wrong enough to be illegal, its just like drinking and gambling, right? Wrong, but not illegal?

Would you say drinking and gambling would land you in Hell?

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 08:55 PM

ok i see, it is a type of birth control...i see not how that is like abortion at all, its like a condom or any other BC pill...

not so jewpin, when bush is reelceted, which he will be becuase the market is rising, and a few of supreme court justices retire, as expected, he will appoint some new antiabortion judges...abortion will not be here for much longer if W's plan works out

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 08:58 PM

Errr...I don't know about Bush's reelection there, Makaveli. You're right, the economy is rising, but prior to that it was at an almost all time low. Public opinion of Bush is falling in recent times. Or at least, my opinion on him.

Look, I don't want to get into a political debate, I just think that any man who can't eat a damn pretzel without nearly killing himself should not have his finger on the button.

jewpinthethird 12-13-2003 08:59 PM

Not if I can assassinate him first.

But really, the USA is turnning into a shit hole of a place to live. everyone hates us, we are still getting killed in Iraq, no progress has been made at all.

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 09:01 PM

hehe yeah that was awesome...but stocks being up is the number one factor for reelection for any party...plus there is no clear democratic candidate yet, which will hirt the party badly...i have alomst no doubt bush wull be reelcted, the history of politics saya so...plus ill vote for him

jewpinthethird 12-13-2003 09:02 PM

We'll see what happens.

willson13 12-13-2003 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909
Well...if its not wrong enough to be illegal, its just like drinking and gambling, right? Wrong, but not illegal?

Would you say drinking and gambling would land you in Hell?

It IS wrong enough to be illegal, but making it illegal would be so counter-productive it would, well, just very, very counter productive.

And...

No clear Dem. candidate, eh? Okay, if you mean ONE, sure, I believe you, but I can think of several that are quite clear. Oh, and Bush isn't getting reelected.

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 09:05 PM

I still think its funny that of all our losses in Iraq, only some 5% were from enemy warfare. The hell is Bush keeping them there for? We had them beat in two weeks, and we lost like 40 troops to their hundreds. But if you ask me, we've definitely overstayed our welcome. We did what we went there to do, now ship em the hell out...would you like enemy troops occupying your country?

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 09:05 PM

agreed...anyone got anything else on this murder issue

btw if you assassinate him, ill kill you

willson13 12-13-2003 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909
I still think its funny that of all our losses in Iraq, only some 5% were from enemy warfare. The hell is Bush keeping them there for? We had them beat in two weeks, and we lost like 40 troops to their hundreds. But if you ask me, we've definitely overstayed our welcome. We did what we went there to do, now ship em the hell out...would you like enemy troops occupying your country?

Which is exactly why Bush isn't getting reelected. His plan for execution was great, but for the conclusion of it all, well, let's just say it was lacking...quite a bit. We can't pull them out because the Iraqi gov't, or lack there of, isn't even somewhat stable without us. Our troops have to be used as police and military officers because the group that's being made isn't big enough. They DO however have a 40,000 man army, and every single day they're working to improve on that number, not to mention hire men for the Police force. Just whatever you do, don't listen to the media. They're all Liberals, every single one of 'em, except for Fox news and the less mainstream type.

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 09:13 PM

liberals suck; and by clear democratic candidate i mean one, hence the not-plural, you know only one runs for president...iraq was an excuse for bush to station troops in the middle east...we all, well we all politiaclly intelligent know that...our republican prez's have always wanted to be in there...now if OPEC tries to do something weird or something breaks out in Iran or Saudi Arabia, were right there to take care of it...at least for our best interest, and thats what matters, us

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 09:14 PM

Kind of true, about Bush's plan in Iraq. It was kind of a 'shoot first ask questions later' type of deal. He focused on getting Saddam out, and didnt' consider any implications of what to do afterword. Also, with the deficeit at the all time high that it is, I don't know what he's thinking borrowing what was it...$150 billion total from Congress?

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 09:16 PM

no i think 80 billion...its the patriot act who could vote against such a, dare i say, patriotic act...well one guy did...he did go in to get out saddam, but theres in doubt he had other implications as well

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 09:18 PM

Yeah, but Bush took out two loans, remember? Oh, it was actually $120 billion I think. $40 billion at the beginning of the war, and another $79 billion recently.

lightdarkness 12-13-2003 09:20 PM

Heres my thoughts
Killing a human being is wrong, just flat out, but before the child is born, i do not feel the child is "alive". It is the mothers decision to decided if they want to keep their child, but i do not feel that if they dont want it, the only alternative is to kill it. There are thousands of couples in the United States who are uncapable of having children, may it be disease or a heriditary thing. They would be very thankfull for a child to call their own. However, it is my understanding that there are certian laws prohibiting abortions after a certain point in the pregnacy. Although i think it is horrible, JUST after a woman because pregnent is the ONLY time they should be able to proform such an act. Afterwards the child develops a brain and i feel you will then be killing it.

About murder
murder is wrong, there should be none of it in society, i do not understand what would drive someone to kill, wheter it be their life aint going to great, or they have problems in their head. But, if they do kill.... they should be locked up for life, only if volentary of corse. If you do unvolentary manslaughter, you need to be punished, however not for life.

These are my views, they are mine, you may have others... but dont criticise me for them. and dont criticise my speeling ether

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 09:23 PM

yes actually lightdarkness, bush passed a partial-birth bill, saying that abortions cant take place like after 7 months after conception or something...but you said murder was wrong and abortions are okay...so how do you feel about the man being charged with two murders

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 09:23 PM

Quote:

If you do unvolentary manslaughter, you need to be punished, however not for life.
And here the debate continues. I want to say, I agree with you totally. However, here's the flip side. Say a woman's driving along when her car blows a flat. She swerves, hits a person, kills them. Its not her fault, but its still manslaughter. If she was a minor she could go to Juvi. No colleges or jobs will accept her. She'll be marked for life, for something that was a complete and total accident. Is that fair?r

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 09:25 PM

life isnt fair, plus i dont know if you could be charged on that

Anticrombie0909 12-13-2003 09:39 PM

You could at least be sued for every penny you own. Read my thread about the Judicial system that I just posted.

VxDx 12-13-2003 10:05 PM

Coat hangers = girl's best friend

makaveli121212 12-13-2003 10:09 PM

you - gayness = my best friend

kineom34 12-13-2003 10:47 PM

If I remember what I read correctly, there is no way out of the parrtial-birth ban. That is, no matter the threat to the mother, an abortion may not be performed. But I could bewrong, that's just what I remember reading.
Myself, I think that abortion is alright to a point, but I don't think that this point can be determined and used as a universal. It's something that may be different for each individual baby. So like, if it's possible at all to monitor the baby's brain's level of function, as well as clearly determine which parts of the brain are used for the more cognitive thinking and those used mainly for survival, then it could be (more) easily determined if the baby was more human-like, or merely an organism. That's not to say, though, that each life(organism, licing thing, etc . . . ) isn't important.
Does anyone know what costs more? The whole delivery process in the hospital or the aboriton procedure?

Oh, and makaveli, liberals do NOT suck :)

lightdarkness 12-13-2003 10:58 PM

About partial births
i feel that you cannot kill a child after its brain has developed
at that point, i belive the child is considered "alive"

and about involentary manslaughter, It is a shame that after an acident where you kill someone, your life goes to hell... the goverment should make it known it was not their fault and it is not "tottaly" a crime, however, you are going to start running into people who think that they can get a way with nothing by sayign it was an acident, the cycle continues...

kineom34 12-13-2003 11:00 PM

That's what I mean about the whole keeping track of the developement thing. Because brains may not all develope the same way, if there is a part of the brain that isn't as much developed, the fetus may not have consciousness yet.

lightdarkness 12-13-2003 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kineom34
That's what I mean about the whole keeping track of the developement thing. Because brains may not all develope the same way, if there is a part of the brain that isn't as much developed, the fetus may not have consciousness yet.

now this conversation is starting to lead about the debate with the steam cell research and taking them before they are developed. I am gonna look tonight and see if i can find anything about the subject.

And i must say, i am happy with the way this critical thinking board is going...

kineom34 12-13-2003 11:05 PM

Hmm . . . it is seeming to take that turn, but it's not a BAD turn. I mean, it could be worse. This board seems to be doing fairly well. But it could change. :| Let's hope not.

If the fetus is aborted, I don't see what's wrong with using the cells . . . Unless the parents was against that. OR ex-parent. Pre-ex-parent. Something.

lightdarkness 12-13-2003 11:07 PM

Yeah
as long as the parents BOTH agree and it is in the VERY early stages
if it means saving millions of lives in the future, then .... ok, but only with both parents consent's and if its early....

kineom34 12-13-2003 11:16 PM

Yes, definitely. OTherwise it's a tich unethical, I think.

87x 12-13-2003 11:34 PM

http://www.ninjapirate.com/abortion.html

everyone should read this

lightdarkness 12-13-2003 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 87x
http://www.ninjapirate.com/abortion.html

everyone should read this

A: Maddox rip off
B: that is an outragous claim, of corse thats true, but then again, if it WERE true, most of us would not be posting in this thread right now, and synth might not have created ffr, or the maker or konami might not have created bemani and ddr
i think that guy has a point, but i dissagree...

kineom34 12-13-2003 11:44 PM

True? Not really. Not really at all. There's no real way to predict who would or wouldn't have been aborted if it were legal. A big thing is that it IS legal, so Michael Jackson, the "Columbine Crew," adn Beyonce, love or loathe we have them regardless of the legality of abortion. That site is just disturbing.

lightdarkness 12-13-2003 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kineom34
True? Not really. Not really at all. There's no real way to predict who would or wouldn't have been aborted if it were legal. A big thing is that it IS legal, so Michael Jackson, the "Columbine Crew," adn Beyonce, love or loathe we have them regardless of the legality of abortion. That site is just disturbing.

I totally agree with you
there are too many "What If's?" in everyones mind
there is no way to change the past, look to the future

Anonymous 12-14-2003 03:23 AM

Yeah way to pick apart my page guys, and way to call me on ripping off Maddox. Wow, that must take some SERIOUS brain power.

"Derr.. if everyone were aborted, we'd all be dead.."

GOOD CALL GALILEO, That's some SERIOUS deductive logic skill you got goin' there.

Learn to laugh. Gimme a break.

lightdarkness 12-14-2003 09:32 AM

ha ha ha ha
no, your a maddox rip off plan and simple
anyways, if we were all aborted, there would be no world, and IF it were like that, there would be laws put into place to preserve man kind, stop living in the past and look forward to the future.

Anticrombie0909 12-14-2003 10:18 AM

Quote:

More examples of unaborted babies:

1. The Columbine Crew
2. Michael Jackson
3. Beyonce Knowles

Unaborted babies shoot up their school, molest children, and make shitty music. I don't even see why people want to have babies, it's insane. You could A) party all the time and not give a shit, or B) work two full-time jobs, get three hours of sleep each night, wipe a little maggot's ass EVERY DAY for four years, the list goes on. That's right, massage something's colon for four whole entire years. I don't think I've done anything for four years, maybe attended school, but there I don't have to clean up shit, only listen to it.

I don't understand why moms don't keep their aborted babies. It makes sense to me. An aborted kid is quiet, not as smelly, and doesn't require near as much oxygen as a living child. If I ever decide to have kids, I'm going to abort them and ask the doctor for a doggy bag. That's the way to go. Adults are so dumb.
Bahahaha this guy's an ass. I like him.

lightdarkness 12-14-2003 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anticrombie0909
Bahahaha this guy's an ass. I like him.

He is, but another maddox wannabe.

His views are completely unrational, however he is entitled to his opionion and i respect his opinion. However heres mine, he is just posting things like that to be known on the internet, but i bettcha a million bucks, you wont see him on tech tv like maddox is.


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