Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums

Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/index.php)
-   Critical Thinking (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/forumdisplay.php?f=33)
-   -   I'd like to know.. (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=50952)

DancingCow 10-2-2006 07:42 PM

I'd like to know..
 
I'd really like to know how "God" can condemn someone for something they can't control. For example, one does not make the choice to become homosexual, yet homosexuality is a sin?

I've been seriously questioning my faith lately, and I just don't believe any more. I want answers.

Please share your thoughts, feelings, etc.

GuidoHunter 10-2-2006 07:46 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Who says they can't control it?

Or rather, since some say it can be controlled and others say it can't, how do you know who is right?

Your question is based on uncertain premises.

And, whatever the answer is to that question, engaging in homosexual acts most certainly is a choice.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Nyokou 10-2-2006 08:09 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
How is someone born a homosexual is my question. A baby isn't born with the immediate thought that they've decided to like people of the same gender. Those feelings develop over time, and they CAN be controlled. When people say that they "can't help it", they're lying.
Therefore, homosexuality is something you choose to be. I know this is a weak argument, but I honestly don't understand how a small baby is born homosexual. Becoming homosexual is a choice, not something you're automatically born with. That's my input...
I'm Christian, actually, to be more specific, LDS (mormon). I thought that homosexuality was wrong, but, I really don't at all now because I'm bisexual. However, I do believe that an individual chooses to become whatever they want to be, and they choose to have feelings for whoever they want, no matter what gender, race, age, etc.

TheRapingDragon 10-2-2006 08:11 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Simple answer would be that "God" in the light that you percieve it, does not exist. There is no astral being who shines down their light on us and makes us follow rules. There may be higher beings, but they do not govern us.

What you are actually talking about as governing the faith of Christianity is that of the church, they are the ones telling you homosexuality and the like is wrong, and that is the information you are following and abiding by.

Gods will, ha.

Nyokou 10-2-2006 08:15 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Right about now, I would have started preaching the gospel to you, but I'll just keep it to myself. I don't want to appear like a complete idiot when it comes to arguing about whether or not there is a God.

TheRapingDragon 10-2-2006 08:22 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
You can attempt to "preach" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that what you are told to percieve comes from the Church. The bible is held in complete control by the church, they can change it how they want and make you believe it. They can tell you what is a sin in the eyes of god, they can tell you how to repent. It isn't god telling you all this, it is the church.

Just another democratic parliament under the blanket of false hope.

Nyokou 10-2-2006 08:26 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
The funny thing is that you have not realized that I am a mormon which means I base my religion mostly on the Book of Mormon. And the Bibles we have are different as well.

Afrobean 10-2-2006 08:37 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyokou (Post 917682)
The funny thing is that you have not realized that I am a mormon which means I base my religion mostly on the Book of Mormon. And the Bibles we have are different as well.

That doesn't negate the fact that all "holy" writings are written from a man's hand, not a god's. Basically, things are sins because people have said that they are. The only possible exception would be the commandments, but last I checked, there is no commandment against homosexual sex anyway.

TheRapingDragon 10-2-2006 08:38 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

You can attempt to "preach" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that what you are told to percieve comes from the mormom religious committee, whomever they may be. The mormom scripture, whatever thay may be, is held in complete control by the aforementioned council which I do not know, they can change it how they want and make you believe it. They can tell you what is a sin in the eyes of whatever you may currently believe in, they can tell you how to repay for your sins in whichever way that may be. It isn't [insert idol here] telling you all this, it is the [insert body of people who you must listen to].
Happy?

GuidoHunter 10-2-2006 08:58 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean (Post 917691)
That doesn't negate the fact that all "holy" writings are written from a man's hand, not a god's. Basically, things are sins because people have said that they are. The only possible exception would be the commandments, but last I checked, there is no commandment against homosexual sex anyway.

Do you just not know anything about the principle tenets of Christianity?

Let me rephrase: How do you know the Bible was written completely of the will of men? Physically? Sure, they transcribed, but according to anyone religious, the words all came from God, inspiring the men.

You have no basis on which to argue against that without making a completely unfounded assumption.

Also, how exactly would you disjoin the commandments from all other sins?

@Reaper: Where did you get the idea that any church can just change the Bible? Also, what religions dictate what is a sin without basing such a judgment in scripture? I'm not very up with Protestant religions, but I know the Catholic Church 100% does not.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

GuidoHunter 10-2-2006 09:01 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
New post for importance and completely different direction.

DancingCow: Go talk to a priest or a preacher or what have you. They have the answers; FFR doesn't.

Hell, ANYONE who has questions about religion: GO ASK PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW ABOUT IT. They could answer any question you have. ANY question, especially the ones that commonly come up.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Afrobean 10-2-2006 09:16 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter (Post 917731)
Do you just not know anything about the principle tenets of Christianity?

rofl

Quote:

Let me rephrase: How do you know the Bible was written completely of the will of men? Physically? Sure, they transcribed, but according to anyone religious, the words all came from God, inspiring the men.
Inspiration is not the same as the original source. Just because a person might have been inspired by some higher power doesn't necessarily mean that they got everything exactly from the said higher source.

Quote:

You have no basis on which to argue against that without making a completely unfounded assumption.
:|

rofl

You accuse me of making an assumption when in discussion over religion. How about this assumption: "Everything that the Bible says is accurate."

Quote:

Also, how exactly would you disjoin the commandments from all other sins?
I didn't. All I meant was that everything in the Bible is second hand from mankind. The commandments are supposed to be straight from God himself.

Quote:

Where did you get the idea that any church can just change the Bible?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I just can't not respond to it.

Long story short, the church can and has changed the Bible. In recent years they haven't made literal changes, however, but just look at the early times of Christianity. Ever hear of the Dead Sea scrolls? You know why they're important, don't you? It's because they're parts of the Bible that the church cut out. In other words, they changed the Bible.

Aside from that, they can change meanings behind things in the Bible. Isn't there something in the Bible about stoning women for being adulterers? "An eye for an eye"? psh.

Laharl 10-2-2006 09:34 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyokou (Post 917682)
The funny thing is that you have not realized that I am a mormon which means I base my religion mostly on the Book of Mormon. And the Bibles we have are different as well.

<- Born and raised Mormon, and I can attest to the fact that isn't exactly true. Our keystone religious text is actually the King James version of the Bible. Most the governing ideals of our faith stem from that source. The Book of Mormon serves to reinforce those ideas, and the Doctrine and Covenants is modern-day revelation to our first few prophets.

What I mean is that our bibles aren't any differernt from any other Christian faith. We just sort of have more scripture.

@ TheRapingDragon:

First off, I have no idea how your name is appropriate for this forum. Rape is no laughing matter.

Second:
"You can attempt to "preach" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that what you are told to percieve comes from the Church. The bible is held in complete control by the church, they can change it how they want and make you believe it. They can tell you what is a sin in the eyes of god, they can tell you how to repent. It isn't god telling you all this, it is the church.

Just another democratic parliament under the blanket of false hope."

Yeah, because everyone that follows a religion does so because it's what they are told and not because it's what they believe for themselves, just as everything you think is entirely derived from your own head and not from the views of society at large enforcing their ideas through the media.

@ Afro:
"Aside from that, they can change meanings behind things in the Bible. Isn't there something in the Bible about stoning women for being adulterers? "An eye for an eye"? psh."

At least in my own religion, we're told to interpret the Bible to get out of it what we can. We're told to study it to get out of it OUR OWN BELIEFS. Anytime someone puts out an idea about what the meaning behind, say, the parables Jesus taught, it's someone doing just that (for any religion or NON religion, for that matter). You interpret it as men putting their ideas down on paper. *shrugs* Okay. Other people see it as divinely inspired works. We deal with you, you deal with us.

Laharl 10-2-2006 09:37 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRapingDragon (Post 917663)
Simple answer would be that "God" in the light that you percieve it, does not exist. There is no astral being who shines down their light on us and makes us follow rules. There may be higher beings, but they do not govern us.

What you are actually talking about as governing the faith of Christianity is that of the church, they are the ones telling you homosexuality and the like is wrong, and that is the information you are following and abiding by.

Gods will, ha.

"BLAH BLAH THERE IS NO GOD YOU ARE FOOLISH FOR BELIEVING SO"

Much like I'm sure there's lots of people, probably many much more educated than yourself, that feel the exact same way about you for not believing in a God.

Going "HAHA UR WRONG" to someone won't ever work. Saying "I believe this thing" might actually have them look at what you say with any sort of real introspection on their own beliefs. Try it sometime if you really want people to accept your own views.

Cavernio 10-2-2006 09:41 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Umm, was that Reaper thing addressed to me? I haven't said anything in this post. I talked about the Bible undergoing changes in a post about evolution awhile back though. The King James Bible is a known, documented revision of the bible. I didn't say that the church randomly changes the bible ever, did I?
I don't know about too many religions besides Christianity, but do Buddhists have scripture? I haven't heard of any if they exist.
Of what religion dictates, I'm sure there's a passage where Jesus is supposed to tell one of his apostles something like "Whatever you release on earth, you will release in heaven" and I guess I've always taken that to be that what is decided as moral by people is what will be decided as moral in heaven. Not sure if that interpretation was from my own head or from a priest.
Also, there's the passage where Jesus says that there're only 2 commandments, that you love God and love your neighbour as you love yourself. (A literal interpretation I suppose would mean that people who go awol and kill people because they hate themselves aren't sinning then :-p)

I'm not convinced of the choice to become homosexual. I'm more convinced right now that people are born that way, but really, I'm unsure. The only thing I know is that I'm not and never have been attracted to women (err, I'm a woman), but if I were in a situation where one were to be doing sexual things to me, I'm sure I would physically respond. Doesn't mean I'm bisexual though. I mean, a guy can be forced to rape someone.

Faith to me was a feeling. When I lost the feeling, I lost my faith, but that's another story. But for some reason, I didn't make an issue about the church not accepting things like homosexuality. I thought/think that it was/is perfectly alright to be homosexual, and I think I thought the church was wrong, but I just thought of that as inacceptance of some people. Again, I based my faith in my feelings, not in the church.

Squeek 10-2-2006 09:46 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter (Post 917736)
Hell, ANYONE who has questions about religion: GO ASK PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW ABOUT IT. They could answer any question you have. ANY question, especially the ones that commonly come up.

Why haven't we taken this stance before?

This is a classic example of 'betr go post it on ffr'

If you're questioning your faith, either talk to a priest / minister or drop the religion. It's really that simple. Nobody on this website is a priest. I doubt anyone here has even read any 'holy book' in its entirety (hey, I read FSMism all the way through.. does that count?).

And what's with all the religion threads anyway? I'm surprised religion still exists these days with all the children questioning faith on websites based on a flash game emulation of a dancing game with arrows.

Afrobean 10-2-2006 09:58 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 917790)
Of what religion dictates, I'm sure there's a passage where Jesus is supposed to tell one of his apostles something like "Whatever you release on earth, you will release in heaven" and I guess I've always taken that to be that what is decided as moral by people is what will be decided as moral in heaven. Not sure if that interpretation was from my own head or from a priest.

This is mentioned in the movie Dogma. Good movie.

That said, I always hated this idea. It basically says "whatever the church says has power over God" which to be blunt, doesn't make any sense. God supposed to be all powerful and yet he is to be controlled by a church?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek
Nobody on this website is a priest.

:roll:

Laharl 10-2-2006 10:02 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 917790)
Umm, was that Reaper thing addressed to me?

I'm pretty sure he was referring to TheRapingDragon saying this:
Quote:

The bible is held in complete control by the church, they can change it how they want and make you believe it. They can tell you what is a sin in the eyes of god, they can tell you how to repent. It isn't god telling you all this, it is the church.
As to your other comments, especially the one about faith being based on feelings, I for one understand how that goes. I'm also trying to put a stop to that in my own life because I've started to realize just how fickle emotions and feelings can be. A lot of people here fail to realize I still feel like I'm in a position where I am trying to define what it is I believe and do not believe. Some of the ideas I have concerning the faith I personally follow are considered heretical by most of the other members of my religion, and that doesn't really bother me so much. I'm just trying to be a better person.

Cavernio 10-2-2006 10:05 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Damn you Dogma! I thought I was original.

No one said it was referring to the church. It could be referring to society.

Well, when my faith went away, ALL my emotions became ****ed up. My faith was pretty constant before then.
I'm far too much of a pragmatist to nurture my faith back to myself now though.

GuidoHunter 10-2-2006 10:06 PM

Re: I'd like to know..
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean (Post 917751)
Inspiration is not the same as the original source. Just because a person might have been inspired by some higher power doesn't necessarily mean that they got everything exactly from the said higher source.

In this case, yes, yes it does. You're a little too focused in your interpretation of the word "inspired". It doesn't just mean "given the general ideas". There's a reason the Bible is called the Word of God, and it's because it is full of God's words, not man's.

Quote:

You accuse me of making an assumption when in discussion over religion. How about this assumption: "Everything that the Bible says is accurate."
That has absolutely nothing to do with the context in which the quote was made.

The assumption I was implying that you made was that God doesn't exist. And considering doing in an argument about whether or not what God says is real or whether or not he exists, yes, I am completely okay in attacking your assumption on the grounds that it's circular logic!

Quote:

I didn't. All I meant was that everything in the Bible is second hand from mankind. The commandments are supposed to be straight from God himself.
Did you not just argue that the Bible was written by man? The basis for all sins is in the Bible. Commandments? In the Bible. Not engaging in homosexual acts? In the Bible. As such, you cannot disjoin the two. Just as the commandments came straight from God, so did all the other details of sins, so you can't say that the commandments are somehow extrabiblical or any more special than any of the others.

Quote:

In recent years they haven't made literal changes, however
Or, ever. The words of the Bible have been and always will be the same.

Quote:

Ever hear of the Dead Sea scrolls? You know why they're important, don't you? It's because they're parts of the Bible that the church cut out.
Right, and the pope buried them in the caves so that they would neeeeever be found and his scheme to control the world would go unruined!!!

Sure, there are old religious texts that aren't in the Bible, but they're not there for a conscious and legitimate reason. Namely, because they don't belong there. Just because a text is old and religious doesn't necessarily mean it belongs in the Bible. Ever look into why, say, Jasher's book wasn't included? How do you even know that those texts were available to be considered Biblical material? And then, now that we've had fifty years to mull over them and study them, why hasn't anyone put any of the texts into their Bible? The apocryphal books were good enough to be in the Catholic Bible, but nobody seems to think the Dead Sea Scrolls should make it.

Quote:

Aside from that, they can change meanings behind things in the Bible. Isn't there something in the Bible about stoning women for being adulterers? "An eye for an eye"? psh.
Isn't there some important distinction in the Bible between the Old and New Testaments?

P.S. Eye for an eye was Hammurabi, if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT:
Quote:

That said, I always hated this idea. It basically says "whatever the church says has power over God" which to be blunt, doesn't make any sense. God supposed to be all powerful and yet he is to be controlled by a church?
GROSS misinterpretation. God is by no means controlled by the Church.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:35 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution