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zildjian133 07-11-2006 11:54 AM

Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Before anyone misunderstands our government we live in a Republic not a Democracy, we have few democractic features, which would be letting the people decide or vote on how everything is run. If we were truely democractic the majority of an idea always wins no matter how ethical or unethical it may be so in the middle east, in Iraq the Shiites and Sunii are going to be divided and if I'm not mistaken the Shiites are the majority and are the biggest threat to American's in Iraq so it seems pretty backwards for all the political talk to be about how great a Democractic state is when we aren't one and would most likely make a biased split population and more violence...

Tps222 07-11-2006 12:23 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Actually, we live in a representitive democracy.

Pure democracy is a stupid idea in my opinion, even with educated people, it never works well.

zildjian133 07-11-2006 12:32 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html

stealth 07-11-2006 01:09 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

In constitutional theory and in historical usages and especially when considering the works of the Founding Fathers of the United States, the word "democracy" refers solely to direct democracy, whilst a representative democracy where representatives of the people govern in accordance with a constitution is referred to as a republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra....22Republic.22

They are both correct terms, I guess, just Republic is the word that was used by the founding fathers.

jewpinthethird 07-11-2006 02:48 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
I think Democracy is a great system. And a Republic is a good system too, as long as the representatives actually represent their constituents. At one people, 59% of the population was unsatisfied with the job President Bush was doing, which means he was a failing at doing his job, which is to keep the people of his country safe and happy. Now, I am no attacking GWB, there's been enough of that, I just using him as an example. The problem with our Government is Capitalism. Our representatives are not listening to the demands of the people, but the demands of big business. It is the dollar that is driving every major decision in our Government.

People also dont realize that their power extents farther than just voting rights. The people do have the ability to purpose laws and have the right to speak with their representative.

mrb1019 07-11-2006 05:40 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
The US is a democracy, one cannot simply define democracy as government with rule directly by the people, there are numerous variations, the US being a representative democracy.

Prince_Kheldar 07-11-2006 06:05 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Hmmm...Let's see..U.S.A. is one of the few countries that use democracy. Considering that USA is the most powerful country in the world, yes, i'd say democracy is pretty damn good!

Prince_Kheldar 07-11-2006 06:07 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Dang, I'm in the mood for a good arguement :)

jewpinthethird 07-11-2006 06:16 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_Kheldar
Dang, I'm in the mood for a good arguement :)

Fine then, what about China's growing economy? Economists estimate that within 10 years, China will be the world's dominate economic super power. China is ruled by a communist dictatorship. Huh? What now?

Of course, it hasn't happened yet, so dont use that argument.

mrb1019 07-12-2006 12:52 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Not to "use that argument" however, the PRC is a mixed economy, although regulated heavily by the government, their economy has become and is becoming more market- oriented. The main reason for China's economic growth is its incorporation of capitalist elements into the economy such as allowing the formation of private businesses and an ease on government price regulations, without such reform their economy would have continued to suffer.

Anyways, democracy is not an economic system, so to rate democracy as ideal or not, based on a comparison of the economies of democratic nations wiht the economy of Communist China isn't valid.



(Just trying to contribute here not "attack" anyone.)

Psycho9003 07-12-2006 01:24 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
I can't say that I know much on the issue, but there is one thing that bugs me. Why is it that the United States in the past has tried to stop the spread of other forms of government, yet now we try to impose our own form on other countries, like Iraq? To me, it seems the U.S. is being hypocritical. I know this is kind of off topic, but does anyone here agree with me?

mrb1019 07-12-2006 01:33 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Well, justification for stopping the spread of other forms of government, such as communism is the Truman Doctrine, in which the US vows to prevent the spread of communism, but not to overthrow existing communist governments. I disagree with Psycho only because the US attempts to stop the spread of forms of government that are threats to global peace, not just to prevent stronger nations from imposing their form of government on weaker ones, which the US does.

GuidoHunter 07-12-2006 01:41 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince_Kheldar
Hmmm...Let's see..U.S.A. is one of the few countries that use democracy. Considering that USA is the most powerful country in the world, yes, i'd say democracy is pretty damn good!

It's more that capitalism is pretty damn good, not democracy.

That is, capitalism is more the cause of our power than democracy is. I wouldn't trade my form of government for anything.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Tps222 07-13-2006 01:05 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
mrb is right. Iraq has attempted to impose their regime on other countries for at least 10 years, referencing the Desert Storm conflict. With our heavy dependence on oil, and Iraq's corrupt goverment that abuses the economic and social state of it's country (Which is almost reason enough for us to get approval to intervene, looking back at the Geneva Convention), and the fact that Iraq could have had WMD's to seize oil rich nations(Such as Kuwait again) is a good reason to invade.

We attacked them to prevent them from spreading a corrupt system of government that would infect other innoncent nations, that who we are protecting. Our invasion has nothing to do with imposing our system upon that nation, our's just happens to be the best in all aspects of civilization.

B3NJ1 07-13-2006 10:24 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Everyone has their disagreements which lead to conflict. Take us (United States) for example. We kill indians for land so we can expand. We look back at mistakes like this and think, "What was our government thinking." (At least I did when we did american history this year). A vast majority of the people at the time didn't think anything of what they were doing. Give the current history that is being made now a good fifty years and we may look back and think how wrong our political system/morals were. We also have the other problem of China being a superpower which was addressed by someone else. If/when we go to war with China for some reason or another, we would both be destroyed. The ony way I can think of a government working with the least war/hate/death/etc. is to become completely united as a planet under one world government. Like the U.N. except with more power and that would be the supreme government. I think I got a little off topic somewhere in there but if a world government was to be initiated it would not be perfect but it would be the best thing we could get.

So no, for the world governent, democracy would not be ideal. I'm still trying to work this all out in my head though. Give me a minute.

rant/10

trillobyite 07-13-2006 10:35 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird
I think Democracy is a great system. And a Republic is a good system too, as long as the representatives actually represent their constituents. At one people, 59% of the population was unsatisfied with the job President Bush was doing, which means he was a failing at doing his job, which is to keep the people of his country safe and happy. Now, I am no attacking GWB, there's been enough of that, I just using him as an example. The problem with our Government is Capitalism. Our representatives are not listening to the demands of the people, but the demands of big business. It is the dollar that is driving every major decision in our Government.

People also dont realize that their power extents farther than just voting rights. The people do have the ability to purpose laws and have the right to speak with their representative.

I disagree. I don't believe the very economic system of capitalism is at fault, but rather the corruption currently inherent in the US goverment and the fact that many congressmen are susceptible to bribes. Take the Abramoff case for example. With no doubt big business has an influence in government, but the fault lies, imo, much more in the politicians themselves than capitalism. After all, a controlled economy would probably not be purged of corruption or the abuse of power by a dictator. The most corrupt countries in the world tend to be countries in Central Asia (the Stans, bandgladesh etc), many of which, while capitalist in essence, have very little big business and are actually dominated more by agriculture (though metal production is important too), and hell, a quasi-bargain economy with market stalls and everything, at least in the non-major cities.

aperson 07-14-2006 12:31 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
The best form of government is totally dependent on the collective mindstate and moral system of its constituents. Therefore, there is no 'ideal' government.

trillobyite 07-14-2006 12:47 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
The best form of government is totally dependent on the collective mindstate and moral system of its constituents. Therefore, there is no 'ideal' government.

But isn't that form, by definition, a democracy?

talisman 07-14-2006 12:53 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
not if the mindset is "yay totalitarianism". it's not like people vote for what government they want. someone decides and others follow.

trillobyite 07-14-2006 01:10 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
not if the mindset is "yay totalitarianism". it's not like people vote for what government they want. someone decides and others follow.

My favorite paradox (and I guess an argument against democracy) is that if the people vote in a totalatarian government, which proceeds to, legally, amend and destroy democratic priviledges, then the democracy doesn't work in the end and the only way the people can achieve their will of liberty would be in revolution. That's why it's always important for checks and balances and the like, but even that can go awry.

Of course, what you said is right. Whatever government is decided upon by the general culture of the people, without democracy already in operation, will kick off and others will follow.

Grandiagod 07-14-2006 02:01 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
You want to know why the govt. is shity?

Human error and corruption. The human factor is the most destructive force on this planet.

aperson 07-14-2006 02:33 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by trillobyite
My favorite paradox (and I guess an argument against democracy) is that if the people vote in a totalatarian government, which proceeds to, legally, amend and destroy democratic priviledges, then the democracy doesn't work in the end and the only way the people can achieve their will of liberty would be in revolution. That's why it's always important for checks and balances and the like, but even that can go awry.

Of course, what you said is right. Whatever government is decided upon by the general culture of the people, without democracy already in operation, will kick off and others will follow.

You are assuming that the society in which this regime is built will execute non-meritocratic authority. This is the case in our society, but this is not the case in all societies.

In radically different societies it is very possible that communism or totalitarian rule would be the optimal form of government.

trillobyite 07-14-2006 12:21 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
You are assuming that the society in which this regime is built will execute non-meritocratic authority. This is the case in our society, but this is not the case in all societies.

In radically different societies it is very possible that communism or totalitarian rule would be the optimal form of government.

I can't agree with that. Like grandiagod said, there is a human factor. If one man has too much power he will create a rigid social structure at his leisure if it means preventing non-supporters from attaining government jobs and positions. In fact, I'd say the USA is pretty meritocratic, while most nations that experimented with totalatarianism, like Cambodia, Germany, USSR, N Korea....usually had no good come out of it. The only exception I can think of is China, in regards to which you may be right.

aperson 07-14-2006 03:11 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by trillobyite
I can't agree with that. Like grandiagod said, there is a human factor. If one man has too much power he will create a rigid social structure at his leisure if it means preventing non-supporters from attaining government jobs and positions. In fact, I'd say the USA is pretty meritocratic, while most nations that experimented with totalatarianism, like Cambodia, Germany, USSR, N Korea....usually had no good come out of it. The only exception I can think of is China, in regards to which you may be right.

Uhh what? You can't agree with it because you can't conceptualize any societal model outside of the western mentality. And, uhh, the US is not very meritocratic. If you take a few glances at congress, you'll realize that all they want is money and power, not what is good for the nation. Also, as an example of a successful dictatorship, just go look at Singapore.

Shashakiro 07-14-2006 04:31 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this. Personally, I believe that in most cases, people are too dumb to make the right decisions for themselves, so in my opinion no, democracy is not ideal.

But AP is right--it totally depends on the country, and that country's people.

trillobyite 07-14-2006 06:55 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
Uhh what? You can't agree with it because you can't conceptualize any societal model outside of the western mentality. And, uhh, the US is not very meritocratic. If you take a few glances at congress, you'll realize that all they want is money and power, not what is good for the nation. Also, as an example of a successful dictatorship, just go look at Singapore.

Meritocratic means the society is based on promoting individual achievement. Work ethic and economic advancement have been an ideal in American culture for centuries (though that right was denied to many- so I'm talking about modern times). Singapore, China....these are exceptions, albeit major exceptions. The ones I listed, and most other countries that rode the path of totalatarianism, ended with nothing more than millions dead and civil wars...

aperson 07-14-2006 10:28 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by trillobyite
Singapore, China....these are exceptions, albeit major exceptions. The ones I listed, and most other countries that rode the path of totalatarianism, ended with nothing more than millions dead and civil wars...

They're not exceptions you retard. They're examples of other forms that can succeed with a different harmony between the ruling and the working. All you're doing is casting aside counterexamples to your crappy hypotheses as 'exceptions' rather than trying to understand why they actually work. You shouldn't be in critical thinking, you should be in elementary school.

trillobyite 07-14-2006 11:14 PM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
They're not exceptions you retard. They're examples of other forms that can succeed with a different harmony between the ruling and the working. All you're doing is casting aside counterexamples to your crappy hypotheses as 'exceptions' rather than trying to understand why they actually work. You shouldn't be in critical thinking, you should be in elementary school.

The majority of totalatarian countries, fundementalist or secular, in which the right of the people to actively participate in government is restricted, historically are filled with horrid corruption, mass-murder, and ethnic conflict. Very, very few countries do actually succeed, the ones you mentioned in particular because the people's culture historically tolerated that type of rule and the leadership is not oppressive enough or following twisted ideals. Singapore is a Parliamentary republic, and the least corrupt one in Asia (and on the lowest 10 of the TR international corruption index). True, it has a one-party system, but laws to restrict freedom of speech are intended not to halt criticism of the government but to stamp out racism. The goals and culture of Singapore make it very fit for an active government, but when a powerful government is plagued with corruption, seeks to destroy all dissension, and promotes twisted policies that ultimately lead to genocide (which occurs much of the time), then that powerful government is NOT optimal. Your personal attacks don't affect me. I know more about myself than you do, so shut up.

Kles 07-15-2006 02:26 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
"Democracy is four wolves and a sheep voting on dinner." - Robert Heinlein

I don't like it, but it's the best we've got for our purposes.

But it sucks to fall in the minority in almost everything, as I do.

glone 07-15-2006 04:11 AM

Re: Democracy: Ideal or not?
 
I really think that the problem isn't so much the form of government (democracy in this case) as it is the people within it. As the US has progressed, it has gone through it's stages of improvement and decline, but with the technology boom in the past 100 years (and more recently the past 30 years), I really feel like it's going through those stages at a far more accelerated rate than in the past and it won't remain the way it is much longer. People in this country are becoming more ignorant, stupid, apathetic, and lazy overall compared to other nations like Japan, Sweeden, and Germany to name a few. Not to say they don't have their own problems, but the US's state is degenerating rapidly.

If I'm coming off as anti-US , believe me, I'm not. I would love nothing more than to see the political and social conflicts associated with this country ended and new measures taken to restore the US to contendable power on nearly all fronts. Not just military and monetary as seems to be the trend as of late.

Somewhat off topic: I really am not looking forward to seeing the next candidates for office come election time. This is going to be one hell of a turning point is US history as most Americans are now in disapproval of Bush's decisions and would like to see someone more on the opposite end of the political spectrum take over. This doesn't mean it's the correct train of thought however, it's just the opinion of the masses tends toward a self centered mindset.

That's my 2¢.
- Glone


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