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-   -   A question about gays/lesbians (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=42475)

ckj846 05-20-2006 09:49 PM

A question about gays/lesbians
 
STOP. Before you come in here with the mindset of flaming me/gays or lesbians in general, please do not even think about posting in here. This is a question (or more like a theory) as to how gay/lesbians are still here on the planet. There will be no flaming at all, just debating on what you think. Now that that is over... here is my question.

In science, we learned in depth more about natural selection. I really was thinking, why are gays/lesbians still on the planet? If it is ideal to be "straight" in order to have children and pass on your traits, wouldn't the "gay" genes eventually be elimiated? I understand that the gene might be recessive (thus having a 25% chance of appearing in offspring) but you would think that EVENTUALLY all gays/lesbians would cease to exist. This really does bring up the question, what decides whether you are gay or straight? Is it a genetic mutation or some error while you are still in the womb? Please discuss.

Mods, if things DO get out of hand (and I hope they don't) feel free to lock this topic or move it if this isn't CT material.
O_o

EDIT: Reading it over again, it really does sound like I hate gays/lesbians, and the truth is, I don't. As long as they don't start hitting on me, I'm cool with them. I do have a few gay friends and I have asked them about this and they didn't know. Sorry about that if you are gay and I sound like one of those super religious gay bashers. My apologies.

talisman 05-20-2006 10:10 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
There's probably more than one gene involved in determining sexuality. As to your main question, I don't know. I had a book called "Biological Exuberance" by a guy named Bruce Bagemihl that I think offered one explanation, but I can't remember quite how it worked.

Afrobean 05-20-2006 10:52 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I would say that being gay is more based on your upbringing than on your genes.

ckj846 05-20-2006 11:06 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Well it is pretty much proven it is a genetic mutation in this book. Sorry I couldn't get the actual official site.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155
I think that the enviroment that one grows up in has an influence to an extent, but I don't think that it is the major part in determining one's sexuality.
O_o

BluE_MeaniE 05-20-2006 11:14 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
It's generally accepted that you're born with it. So like everything, it's most likely a mix of genes and environment. A mutation is possible. But it's pretty common.

But in any case, there is a distinct fact of the matter on the truth.

Chrissi 05-20-2006 11:25 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
It's hard to see the forest for the politically correct trees.

Afrobean 05-20-2006 11:37 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ckj846
Well it is pretty much proven it is a genetic mutation in this book. Sorry I couldn't get the actual official site.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

Nice try. However, you could have at least given me a BS link that supported what you said, but instead linked me to a buying a book page (which actually gives no indication of what you said being true-- and if the book does prove such a gay gene to exist, it would obviously be identified in the synopsis).

Until I hear from a reliable source that genes cause homosexuality, I'll stick to what I said before. Your argument is the equivalent to saying that genes decides what kind of food you'll like or what kind of music you'll like. There might be things in your genes that affect it, but the end result of your taste in whatever subject comes from your environment.

jwcgator 05-20-2006 11:39 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I remember something about being that the Y Chromosome being smaller than the X, it sorta gets "beat up" by the X chromosome, or something to that effect. Eh, I dunno i saw something about it on the discovery channel, dont quite remember it all.

talisman 05-20-2006 11:42 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...al_orientation

for afro.

Afrobean 05-20-2006 11:49 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman

Quote:

Originally Posted by that wiki article
An increasing number of studies have investigated this link, but no scientific consensus exists as to the specific biological factors that may play a role, nor to the precise nature of their influence on sexual orientation.

oh.

DarkVampiress21 05-21-2006 12:05 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I don't think anything makes you gay/straight. Well, maybe your environment.

But it's just whatever turns you on..

I suppose it's like asking, "What determines whether you like Rock or Techno?"

ckj846 05-21-2006 12:10 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Sorry afro. I was thinking of the book I read about the Genome and I was kinda rushing for a source. Totally didn't think of wiki. Well none of you guys really answered my intended question, why are do gays/lesbians exist. Doesn't this go against the idea of natural selection?
O_o

EDIT:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki
Male homosexuality appears likely to be influenced by a complex genetic interaction which may be mediated by H-Y antigens in the mother’s immune system (see "fraternal birth order"). Whichever genes are implicated they almost certainly cause male brains to differentiate in a female typical direction. As for female homosexuality, there remains little evidence from replicated genetic linkage studies.

oh. Afro, don't go yelling at me please for not having a reliable source when you don't even read the whole article that talisman provided...

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 12:24 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Heh, well, there's a few takes on this.

First off, it highly depends on your view of a few things:

Do you believe your sexuality is a free choice? IE... I consider myself to be straight. I could go eff some dude in the ass right now. Does that make me gay? Was I ever gay? What if I choose to never have sex... does that make me gay or simply anti-procreation? Or just a weirdo? Or is it a matter of your DNA that determines your sexuality?

Regardless of that... the current trend of this topic is to believe it's genetic, so I'll go with that. It brings up some interesting thoughts... perhaps humans don't have that instinctual behavior to continue the species. Perhaps there's too many of us and this is mother nature's way of of controlling our population. Maybe it's a fluke. I honestly don't know, but it's certainly something I've thought a lot about, but I've yet to reach any conclusions.

Afrobean 05-21-2006 12:24 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ckj846
Sorry afro. I was thinking of the book I read about the Genome and I was kinda rushing for a source. Totally didn't think of wiki. Well none of you guys really answered my intended question, why are do gays/lesbians exist. Doesn't this go against the idea of natural selection?
O_o

Not really. Homosexuals aren't made in the way you're talking. Homosexuality isn't passed from generation to generation. I am certain that preferences are not passed down from generation to generation in ANY form, so why would sexual preferences?

Quote:

oh. Afro, don't go yelling at me please for not having a reliable source when you don't even read the whole article that talisman provided...
I never yelled. And why should I read the whole thing when the first few sentences basically say "people study links but it hasn't been scientifically proven." What good is anything that's not scientifically proven?

Really, they're just looking at correlations anyway. correlation!=causation;

DarkVampiress21 05-21-2006 12:27 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Maybe they just want to be different/get attention. I know that's true by some of the people I know >_<

But if they're truly gay/lesbian, well I suppose they found someone who makes them happy but they're of the same sex. To them it doesn't matter, because they truly love that person and decide that they are gay/lesbian.

And does it matter if it goes against natural selection? They aren't thinking, "Oh man, I love him, but oh darn! It goes against natural selection! I'm going to impact the human race out of 6 billion people!"

Although, if the whole world becomes gay/lesbian, then that would definately be a problem. I seriously doubt that would happen though.

JKPolk 05-21-2006 12:29 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
There's enough people on the planet that we could use some more gays/lesbians/people just plain not reproducing.

ckj846 05-21-2006 12:32 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I agree with you afro. Iw as thinking of homosexuality as a trait but it really isn't. I guess this thread brings in the idea of what it is to really be homosexual. I think that someone who is homosexual is basically a person who prefers someone of the same sex over someone of the opposite sex. It really just confuses me though because if homosexuality isn't passed from generation to generation, are you saying its a random mishap? It seems as though it is more of a hormonal imbalance during pregnancy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki
A 1993 U.S. study found a correlation between male homosexuality and maternal lineage, suggesting that mothers have some special role in determining the sexual orientation of their male offspring. Studies since the 1960s (eg Slater, 1962) have noted that homosexual men tend to be the later-born among a group of siblings. Many recent studies (see Fraternal birth order) have indicated that homosexual men are more likely to have older brothers than the general male population. (This difference is not observed among women.)

A chemical called the histocompatibility Y-antigen (the "HY antigen") is found on the surface of the cells of male mammals. It is hypothesized (Wachtel, 1983; Blanchard & Bogaert, 1996) that the "fraternal birth order effect" may be related to increasing levels of antibodies produced by the mother in response to the presence of this chemical during pregnancy with the oldest son. These antibodies could then somehow trigger different brain development patterns in later male children, either in the uterus or in early childhood through breast milk. Later sons would then more likely to have a homosexual orientation as adults. At least one genetic study attempting to verify this theory claimed to find a correlation with a certain area of the X chromosome (of which all women carry two copies, and all men carry one), but these findings could not be replicated by other researchers.

An alternate theory was proposed by Italian researchers in 2004 (Camperio-Ciani et al. 2004), supported by a study of about 4,600 people who were the relatives of 98 homosexual and 100 heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men tended to have more offspring than those of the heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men on their mother's side tended to have more offspring than those on the father's side. The researchers concluded that there was genetic material being passed down on the X chromosome which both promotes fertility in the mother and homosexuality in her male offspring. The connections discovered, however, would explain only 20% of the cases studied, indicating that this might not be the sole genetic factor determining sexual orientation.

Wouldn't this maybe be a genetic mutation on the mother's behalf? Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki
Homosexuality has also been correlated with elevated testosterone levels in adult males, which may indicate an indirect genetic influence.

Interesting stuff here. =D
O_o

EDIT:
Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkVampiress21
Maybe they just want to be different/get attention. I know that's true by some of the people I know >_<

But if they're truly gay/lesbian, well I suppose they found someone who makes them happy but they're of the same sex. To them it doesn't matter, because they truly love that person and decide that they are gay/lesbian.

And does it matter if it goes against natural selection? They aren't thinking, "Oh man, I love him, but oh darn! It goes against natural selection! I'm going to impact the human race out of 6 billion people!"

Although, if the whole world becomes gay/lesbian, then that would definately be a problem. I seriously doubt that would happen though.

Well the thing was, I was asking why they gays still existed if they didn't care about natural selection and they did not reproduce. Of course this lowered the population for future generations, but then if this WAS a genetic mutation (which I'm still not sure on) then why are there still homosexual people here? That was my real question.

Sorry for this extremely long post =/

Afrobean 05-21-2006 12:35 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Trying to find the roots of homosexuality is like trying to find the roots of S&M or pedophilia.

It's all environment, guys.

EDIT: By the way, notice how they use the word correlate. That's a fancy word meaning that as one goes up, the other changes. This however does not necessarily mean that one caused the other.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 12:36 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
However, from a sexual standpoint, it seems that homoesexuality would be the way to go. Your partner is more likely to be looking for the same relationship (sexually) as you are. For males, assuming buttsex and giving head doesn't bother you (it does me), it would seem to be a pretty sweet deal.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
Trying to find the roots of homosexuality is like trying to find the roots of S&M or pedophilia.

It's all environment, guys.

Very good point.

jewpinthethird 05-21-2006 12:44 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Natural Selection means survival of the fittest. As you should well be aware, the human species is at the top of the food chain. Homosexuals are still members of the human species.

Homosexuality is not a trait that can be passed on from generation to generation. It's a genetic mutation, a mixed up combination of X and Y chromosomes, individual to each person. Just because someone is homosexual doesnt mean the are any less fit for survival than heterosexuals.

Deaths_Melancholy 05-21-2006 12:55 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Umm just posting my thoughts on this...

I think that the factors for being gay are hormonal and environmentally influenced. Now I know that the genes eventually control how much of what hormones you got going on in the blood, but you never know if the parents smoking or something affected that in the long run. Please do not flame me on this post as I do not hate any gay peoples untill they decide to make me uncomfortable by staring or something. Slight genetic differences can change a lot of things... I personally think it's more upbringing and environmental, as is with most things. I'm not saying that it isn't freedom of choice. There are probably a decent pecentage of gay people who do choose it without other factors. And now to answer the topic question. It cannot be just a gene that causes it, seeing as it just hasn't disappeared off the face of the planet, and genetic mutations take hundreds of years to form(as there are no offspring being produced to continue the gene spread. which is also now making me think whoever started this thread has no logic... If it isn't gone and nothing to spread the gene then it cannot be just the "gene" that makes it happen).

Overview: Cannot be just gene or it would've just dissappeared already.
My standpoint is that a "gene" could help but isn't the main factor

edit: forgot to throw into the overview that I AM NOT against gay people. I also have many gay friends and am usually comfortable with them around as long as they respect me and do not make me feel uncomfortable

edit2: in the main paragraph somewhere... meh.. more of my opinions.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 12:59 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Situational perhaps? As are most things.

Afrobean 05-21-2006 01:03 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
And what of the common homosexual behavior among animals? Do they all have mutant genes as well?

BluE_MeaniE 05-21-2006 01:04 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Z3ratul
Situational perhaps? As are most things.

Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaths_Melancholy
edit: forgot to throw into the overview that I AM NOT against gay people.

Oh, you are more than you think. Admit it first. Then you can fix it.

Afrobean 05-21-2006 01:06 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BluE_MeaniE
Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

Even behavior? I'd say that behavior is by far more environment.

PS homosexuality is a behavior.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 01:19 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BluE_MeaniE
Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

Hence situational. -_-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
Even behavior? I'd say that behavior is by far more environment.

PS homosexuality is a behavior.

I'd have to agree with you there. Unless people are saying that genetics determines behavior... in which case, there's no sense in talking about this because we fall back into that Determinism hole. It seems the debate right now is about whether or not homosexuality is a choice (environmental factors) or a fate (genetics). Which, as has been said, is probably situationally some combination (not necessarily balanced) of the two. If anybody has some emperical evidence that proves the case for one side or the other (like that book), I'd like to hear it.

ckj846 05-21-2006 01:35 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia
Natural selection is the process by which individual organisms with favorable traits are more likely to survive and reproduce. Natural selection works on the whole individual, but only the heritable component of a trait will be passed on to the offspring, with the result that favorable, heritable traits become more common in the next generation. Given enough time, this can lead to adaptation and speciation (see evolution).

Natural selection is the survial of the fittest to reproduce. Homosexuals obviously cannot reproduce.
O_o
Sorry, I didn't realize how many people posted. This is in reponse to jewpin's post.

Deaths_Melancholy 05-21-2006 02:42 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BluE_MeaniE
Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.


Oh, you are more than you think. Admit it first. Then you can fix it.

I don't get it...

talisman 05-21-2006 03:40 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
afro there isn't "proof" either way... evidence that supports the environmental stance is also all correlational. It's a logical fallacy to assume that a certain position is incorrect when in reality it only may or may not be correct, especially when the alternative position is in the same state of flux.

Point is that there's evidence to both sides, and if you actually want to make a real argument, you should find some that supports yours instead of just dropping your opinion in a vacuum.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 03:50 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
Point is that there's evidence to both sides, and if you actually want to make a real argument, you should find some that supports yours instead of just dropping your opinion in a vacuum.

I prefer the vacuum personally.

Chrissi 05-21-2006 10:53 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Homosexuals can reproduce if they wish. They might not wish to though.

aperson 05-21-2006 10:55 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Before we get too drawn out the original poster needs to learn what the difference between 'Darwinism' and 'Social Darwinism' is.

Hint: One is full of crap, the other isn't.


Edit:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrissi
Homosexuals can reproduce if they wish. They might not wish to though.

Uhh, if homosexuality is genetic, so much for genetic persistence... You might want to turn your brain on before you come into critical thinking again.

falconsfan14 05-21-2006 11:40 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Seems like a matter of choice, or something sick and wrong happened to you at childhood, like being raped by someone. Or say you grew up with 2 or 3 sisters that were older than you. Maybe you looked up to them, and wanted to be like them and when they started to like guys, so did you? Just a quick thought. =|

Afrobean 05-21-2006 11:58 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
afro there isn't "proof" either way... evidence that supports the environmental stance is also all correlational. It's a logical fallacy to assume that a certain position is incorrect when in reality it only may or may not be correct, especially when the alternative position is in the same state of flux.

Point is that there's evidence to both sides, and if you actually want to make a real argument, you should find some that supports yours instead of just dropping your opinion in a vacuum.

Yeah, I have no substantial proof.

However, the fact that the other side has no substantial proof as well is enough for me to assume that my side is correct. Why is that?

Because my side is the side of logic. Why would sexual preference be genetic? Yes, we should all be ingrained with the survival instinct which would lead us to want to reproduce. However, even this can be beaten (suicide, or people who have no wish to have children), so why wouldn't any naturally innate draw to the opposite sex be just as easily beaten, especially with certain people supporting the switch.

That aside, it is shown in many individuals that certain sexual behavior (ie S&M, pedophilia, exhibitionism) all seem to stem from traumatic childhoods or other special instances which result from their upbringing (for example, I heard a long time ago that males who are raised without fathers are more likely to be homosexual than if they had fathers). Why would homosexuality be any different in having it's roots in such things?

And by the way Talisman, me posting something which supports my side would serve no purpose. If you won't listen to the logic I post here and say "hmm that sounds right" then why would you believe a wikipedia article stating something like this:

Quote:

Since 1962 when our volume was published, I have interviewed about 1,000 male homosexuals and 50 pairs of parents of homosexuals. The classic pattern was present in more than 90% of cases. In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual. I have concluded that there is a causal relationship between parental influence and sexual choice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

aperson 05-21-2006 12:40 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
Yeah, I have no substantial proof.

However, the fact that the other side has no substantial proof as well is enough for me to assume that my side is correct. Why is that?

Because my side is the side of logic.

If logic proved everything we'd all be philosophers.

Actually the correct stance is "Not enough information."

talisman 05-21-2006 01:03 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
uh, afro, I WOULD listen more to that wiki quote than your logic. Why should I listen to your logic? Am I to assume that you are an expert in the area? Citing a source like that helps your position immensely.

Btw, I'm not trying to take a position here because I don't really know myself, I've heard conflicting evidence. For example, I believe there was a study recently which found that as number of older male siblings increased, a males chances of being homosexual increased by a 33% factor each time.

talisman 05-21-2006 01:07 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
oh and for the sake of debate, the qualifying paragraph you didn't cite:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki
These reports have been criticized, particularly for confusing cause and effect. In other words, any tendency for gay males to bond more with their mothers than their fathers is more likely the result of homosexuality than the cause. The American Psychological Association has also criticized such reports, noting that the percentage of homosexuals is relatively constant across cultures, which is not what you would expect if parental influence were significant. The theory also fails to explain why homosexuality was nearly universal among males in ancient Greece, pre-modern Japan, and other cultures, or why animals exhibit homosexuality, particularly those species such as the Black Swans of Australia, where a male same-sex couple are the only parents of the brood. Animal biological research is beginning to parallel human research in its findings. The study of homosexual rams (Roselli et al. 2004 cited in LeVay, 2006) [16] revealed that in homosexual rams, the analogous brain structure indicated to be involved in human homosexuality showed similar size differences to those in humans.


Chrissi 05-21-2006 03:21 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
Before we get too drawn out the original poster needs to learn what the difference between 'Darwinism' and 'Social Darwinism' is.

Hint: One is full of crap, the other isn't.


Edit:


Uhh, if homosexuality is genetic, so much for genetic persistence... You might want to turn your brain on before you come into critical thinking again.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.... I never intended that. I'm quite WYSIWYG.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 03:45 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
Actually the correct stance is "Not enough information."

Pretty much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
Btw, I'm not trying to take a position here because I don't really know myself, I've heard conflicting evidence.

Pretty much.

Yes, I know it's not really apropriate to simply 'agree' with somebody in CT, but when they've said the thoughts, I see no need to simply reiterate them. I've nothing to add.

All I can say is possibility and probability.

ckj846 05-21-2006 04:35 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Ok, I was rereading the book Genome by Matt Ridley and I found some interesting stuff on the "gay gene".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genome Page 116
Forgive the digression into intelligence. Let's get back to sex. Probably one of the most sensational, controversial and hotly disputed genetic discoveries was the announcement by Dean Hamer in 1993 that he had found a gene on the X chromosome that had a powerful influence on sexual orientation, or, as the media quickly called it, 'a gay gene'. Hamer's study was one of several published about the same time all pointing towards the conclusion that homosexuality was a 'biological' - as opposed to being the consequence of cultural pressure or conscious choice. Some of this work was done by ggay men themselves, such as neuroscientist Simon LeVay of the Salk Institute, keen to establish in the public mind what they were convinced about in their own minds: that homosexuals were 'born that way'. They believed, with some justice, that prejudice would be less against a lifestyle that was not a deliberate 'choice' but an innate porpensity. A genetic cause would also make homosexuality seem les threatening to parents by making it clear that gay role models could not turn youths gay unless they had the propensity already. Indeed conservative intolerance of homosexuality has recently taken to attacking the evidence for its genetic nature. 'We should be careful about accepting the claim that some are 'born to be gay', not just because it is untrue, but because it provides leverage to homosexual rights organisations', wrote the Conservative Lady Young in the Daily Telegraph on 29 July 1998

Ridley goes on to talk about the research and the statistics. I'll quote them for you if you want me to.
O_o

Afrobean 05-21-2006 05:15 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
oh and for the sake of debate, the qualifying paragraph you didn't cite:

I honestly didn't read the whole thing. I just scanned for something which supported my side and posted since you seemed to take offense at me not supplying anything.

Either way, I doubt anyone could convince me that homosexuality is innate. Maybe a tendency to be ok with homosexuality (ie the type to experiment with it but not necessarily be gay, even though some of them may decide to be gay), but preferences should always come back to your environment.

SethSquall 05-21-2006 05:21 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Being gay isnt a disability. So I dont think it will not become extinct. I think that now theres more of a freedom to your sexuality. It will never die.

dore 05-21-2006 06:04 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I firmly believe that it is society that causes gays to be gays and heteros to be heteros. At one point in Japan, homosexuality was practiced by the majority of people (I don't know the whole story, I heard it in passing on the Discovery Channel or something). They probably asked the question: "Why are heterosexuals heterosexuals?"

Today, those who are homosexual tend to be more progressive, open, liberal, and against traditional values. We are in a society that is dominated by a religion which believes in monogamy and heterosexuality. Therefore, those who are gay must fight against the norm and be different. If heterosexuality was frowned upon by the average person, than the more progressive and open people would tend to be gay.

I think that it is partially genetic, as those traits I speak of above could be partially attributed to genes, but I mostly believe that society's constraints cause gays to be gay.

-Izzy- 05-23-2006 03:52 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
to bad society today is completly not dominated by religion at all. and thank god for that.
pretty positive being gay is about 99.99% not influence.

stretchypanda 05-23-2006 04:03 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
My mother and her sister were treated the same way by their parents, but my aunt was rebellious, got pregnant out of wedlock, married a guy her parents hated (well, they hated my dad, too, but for different reasons), then left him for a woman. Meanwhile, my parents are coming up on their 25th anniversary and, as far as I know, my mom has never entertained thoughts of leaving my dad for a person of either sex, and is really very bothered by homosexuality.

Likewise, my sister and I have grown up in the same environment, and my sister came out of the closet last year, while I'm happily straight.

Afrobean 05-23-2006 04:12 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Simply being raised in the same household does not result in the same childhood.

That is interesting though. The thing about your aunt/sister, that is.

stretchypanda 05-23-2006 04:40 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
It's true. Apparently my sister was abused by some schoolmates and has all kinds of emotional problems.

Just saying, though. My mom was raised in a pretty sheltered home, as were my sister and I.

Z3ratul 05-23-2006 05:53 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dore
I firmly believe that it is society that causes gays to be gays and heteros to be heteros. At one point in Japan, homosexuality was practiced by the majority of people (I don't know the whole story, I heard it in passing on the Discovery Channel or something). They probably asked the question: "Why are heterosexuals heterosexuals?"

Today, those who are homosexual tend to be more progressive, open, liberal, and against traditional values. We are in a society that is dominated by a religion which believes in monogamy and heterosexuality. Therefore, those who are gay must fight against the norm and be different. If heterosexuality was frowned upon by the average person, than the more progressive and open people would tend to be gay.

I think that it is partially genetic, as those traits I speak of above could be partially attributed to genes, but I mostly believe that society's constraints cause gays to be gay.

That's all great, and makes sense but the thing that it doesn't consider is the fact that homosexuality (not in practice, but theory) is anti-procreation.

Grandiagod 05-23-2006 06:39 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Maybe it's a gene that manifests equally but is not passed down?

Afrobean 05-23-2006 07:58 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Z3ratul
That's all great, and makes sense but the thing that it doesn't consider is the fact that homosexuality (not in practice, but theory) is anti-procreation.

So I guess people who simply don't like children and plan on not having them have mutated genes as well.

Oh, and don't forget people who commit suicide. They definitely have mutated genes too.

Z3ratul 05-23-2006 10:36 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
So I guess people who simply don't like children and plan on not having them have mutated genes as well.

Oh, and don't forget people who commit suicide. They definitely have mutated genes too.

That's not what I implied and you know it.

T0rajir0u 05-23-2006 10:45 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Not bothering to read the rest of this thread (it's probably retarded), but I promise not to flame or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckj846
I really was thinking, why are gays/lesbians still on the planet? If it is ideal to be "straight" in order to have children and pass on your traits, wouldn't the "gay" genes eventually be elimiated?

Keyword: "eventually."

The major problem with your question, though, is that you assume gayness is absolute, and encapsulated in a single gene: that people are either genetically, 100% gay or genetically 0% gay.

This is almost definitely wrong.

It's more likely that homosexuality is a complicated mixture of hormonal conditions, not all of which are even going to be genetic (the condition of the mother's womb, etc., will all play a part), which means that people will still be passing on genes that make them susceptible to hormonal conditions because they'll still be straight.

Or, in other words, that there are plenty of people who may have a genetic predisposition of some kind to homosexuality but that are not themselves homosexual, and those people aren't dying off from natural selection.

ruifio894 05-28-2006 10:01 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Dude, I may not be right but I don't think sexual attraction has anything to do with genes or the human body. I just think it is perspective. Some people start out straight then end up gay. If it was genetics then wouldn't they be gay from the start of puberty and so on? Just adding a thought.

Kinjiro 06-1-2006 06:42 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Uhh, my brother is gay, and its not like he made an active choice to become gay. He actually hated that fact that he was for a long time and wouldn't tell anyone. So its not like "oh im gonna rebel and be gay to piss of my parents". It just happened, and there's nothing he can do about it. People act like its a choice to be evil. WHY WOULD PEOPLE STAY IN THE CLOSET IF IT WAS A CHOICE? It goes with the territory that they are different, hence feared, misunderstood, and they are afraid too. Gay people can't help what they are. I hate it when people (especially evangelical douchebags) that insist they are gay on purpose, and the whole "You are going to hell, i don't care who you are, you're gay" thing makes me mad. Its not a choice, it just happens. I have a few gay friends, and they all said they didn't choose. Why don't people just ask them, wouldn't that answer a lot of questions instead of people speculating? They are people.

Moogy 06-1-2006 07:32 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I like how most/all of the people arguing about this aren't even gay.

Meh.

MalReynolds 06-1-2006 10:44 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Moogy
I like how most/all of the people arguing about this aren't even gay.

Meh.

This thread more than proves they are.

Kles 06-2-2006 09:57 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
It's not a conscious choice. As you grow up, you simply find yourself more attracted to members of your own gender. Sometimes, you may still be attracted to the opposite gender. Sometimes, you're attracted to certain things about men, and certain things about women. The issue of sexuality is as far from black and white as possible. It's all grey. The only choice you make is the choice to act on what you truly are in nature or the choice to fake being straight.

The same can be said about transexuality as well as nonsexuality.

businessman07 06-4-2006 04:21 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kles
It's not a conscious choice. As you grow up, you simply find yourself more attracted to members of your own gender. Sometimes, you may still be attracted to the opposite gender. Sometimes, you're attracted to certain things about men, and certain things about women. The issue of sexuality is as far from black and white as possible. It's all grey. The only choice you make is the choice to act on what you truly are in nature or the choice to fake being straight.

The same can be said about transexuality as well as nonsexuality.

This person summed it up... and I agree with afro
end of story


YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK GOODBY!!!

COBOL 06-6-2006 12:32 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I'm pretty sure its as simple as preference.

Moogy 06-7-2006 01:51 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kles
It's not a conscious choice. As you grow up, you simply find yourself more attracted to members of your own gender. Sometimes, you may still be attracted to the opposite gender. Sometimes, you're attracted to certain things about men, and certain things about women. The issue of sexuality is as far from black and white as possible. It's all grey. The only choice you make is the choice to act on what you truly are in nature or the choice to fake being straight.

The same can be said about transexuality as well as nonsexuality.

<3

D.S.C. 06-15-2006 05:31 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Maybe all of your theories are correct, well... most, it could be a combination of different things. Things that no one really remembers, lack of a certain parental presence, or parent abusal. Different levels of hormones, state of mind, manner of thinking. I believe that if there IS a particular pattern or cause for homosexuality, that it shouldn't be found. It wouldn't come to me as a surprise if homophobic people would try to stop whatever that pattern or cause from happening. We're all individuals, one has the ability to do what he/she pleases if it doesn't infringe other people's same rights or happiness if you prefer

Snowcrafta 06-15-2006 05:39 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Gay Marrige is about money and tax issues. They can get married as they please under the eyes of god, just not in the eyes of the state.

Oh wait this isn't a gay marrige topic. What the hell.

Tests have proven that all of those theories can be found throughout gays everywhere.

dontcareaboutmyid 06-18-2006 04:32 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Just to insert a random point, how do you know you're heterosexual?

ckj846 06-18-2006 06:10 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I think that heterosexuality is basically that you prefer someone of the opposite sex over someone over the same sex both in relationships and sexually. Well that is just my opinion. Now, after reading over the thred, I really am starting to believe that homosexuality can not be pinpointed at one thing. Everyone brought up good points, especially Afro and Kles. But my point comes up again, if the ENVIROMENT now plays a huge role with genetics and the theory of natural selection, wouldn't the "heterosexuals" eventually root out the things that lead to homosexuality? From the posts in this thread, people have been implying that it is mainly the enviroment that one grows up in that determines sexuality. Does this mean that mankind could potentially destroy homosexuality? Just another point to bring up and I'll probably get shot down. =)
O_o

T0rajir0u 06-18-2006 07:08 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ckj846
people have been implying that it is mainly the enviroment that one grows up in that determines sexuality. Does this mean that mankind could potentially destroy homosexuality?

In the same way that mankind could potentially destroy, say... autism.

When I said "environment" (I don't know if Kles and Afro mean it the same way), I mostly meant everything that affects the child's development in the mother - hormone levels in the uterus, weird genetics in the child that affect its own hormone production, etc. Studies have been done that suggest that homosexuality is something that you are born with (a birth "defect," if you really want to think about it that way), not something that you develop depending on how you grow up after you're born. Although I suppose some accident in early childhood could potentially cause a hormonal imbalance.

If you want to tinker with genes to make sure this never happens, then, uh, sure. Super babies ftw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dontcareaboutmyid
Just to insert a random point, how do you know you're heterosexual?

Do you like boobies?

super-smashman 06-18-2006 09:29 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dontcareaboutmyid
Just to insert a random point, how do you know you're heterosexual?

1. Be born a guy.
2. See naked girl.
3. ?????
4. Boner.

dontcareaboutmyid 06-19-2006 11:54 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Serious rhetorical question guys and girls, just think about it. Cause you could ask a person that is homosexual, "how do you know you're homosexual?"

-Izzy- 06-20-2006 07:45 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
I would say that being gay is more based on your upbringing than on your genes.

Thats funny cause i think its completly the opposite.


And you just know. You know if you are attracted to something.

Kles 06-20-2006 10:52 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Being bisexual, favouring men I know what I'm saying.

I did not have an odd upbringing. This is how I've always been. There HAS to be something genetic about it, and it has to be the main factor.

Telvanni_guard 06-20-2006 07:29 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kles
It's not a conscious choice. As you grow up, you simply find yourself more attracted to members of your own gender. Sometimes, you may still be attracted to the opposite gender. Sometimes, you're attracted to certain things about men, and certain things about women. The issue of sexuality is as far from black and white as possible. It's all grey. The only choice you make is the choice to act on what you truly are in nature or the choice to fake being straight.

The same can be said about transexuality as well as nonsexuality.

I agree with this stance.

I personally think it's a combination of: Genetics, Looks, and Social Life.

Oddly enough, I don't have a single homosexual or bisexual person in my family line (that I know of) and I turned out bisexual. Different factors for different people I guess.

Kles 06-22-2006 04:14 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I am the same way. No one even close to me is bisexual/gay yet I am. Of course, they are rather Catholic everywhere in my family except my own branch of the family, therefore maybe some are hiding it... but probably not.

dancepuppet 06-22-2006 05:20 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
THEIR THE ONES WHO FRIKKEN BROUGHT AIDS TO THIS WORLD!!!!!!!!





...right?....

dontcareaboutmyid 06-23-2006 03:41 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
learn your there/their/they're 's please.

Is there an explanation on nonsexuality somewhere in the last three pages?

TIkimanJr 06-23-2006 11:15 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I believe becoming gay depends on the family you were brought up in, with 90% of this reasoning being how religious your family is. It says right in the bible that gays are a sin and will go to hell. So if you were raised into a christian family there is a lot less chance of you turning out homosexual becuase you learn about it from your parents and a priest. (especially these days becuase of it always being on the news) So if you have no one telling you that it's bad and you'll go to hell if you turn up like that, then there is a way greater chance you'll be gay. However I do think it is way too harsh and saying that all gays will go to hell because most of them could help the way they think.

JurseyRider734 06-23-2006 01:08 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
First of all, Afrobean needs to stop posting.

Second, I think that your environment pretty much has nothing to do with your sexuality. I have two pretty close gay-guy friends, and they grew up in completely normal family situations.

Your question is like asking if any genetic mutation could get wiped out over time (for example downs syndrome, etc), and obviously it won't be because it's a genetic mutation. I don't know much about it but I think jewpin said something earlier in this thread about it. There's something in you that makes you more attracted to your sex than the opposite.

flamingspinach 06-23-2006 02:00 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
uhhhh jurs, Down's Syndrome is not caused by a mutation - it's caused by an accident during meiosis, called trisomy of the 21st chromosome, in which the 23rd chromosome pair doesn't split and separate properly, leaving a gamete with an extra piece, so the child that results from a conception involving the "defective" gamete is born with all their other chromosomes double (like normal) but their 21st one is triple.

Also TIkimanJr is a dumbass.

JurseyRider734 06-23-2006 02:13 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
I was pretty sure I was taught that Downs was a genetic mutation.

Maybe my teacher was a dumbass.

Well she was, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're right.

Hr2 06-23-2006 04:05 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
Trying to find the roots of homosexuality is like trying to find the roots of S&M or pedophilia.

It's all environment, guys.

This is hilariously wrong.

Afrobean 06-23-2006 06:52 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hr2
This is hilariously wrong.

Can you prove that?

No. You can't.

Kles 06-24-2006 08:07 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Can you prove what YOU said?

I had your every day family upbringing with caring parents and a normal familiar life. I even saw my first porn mag when I was really young (6?) and looked at it OFTEN. I was always more intregued by the cocks than the women.

Say what you want but I've been gay for all my life.


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