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-   -   A question about gays/lesbians (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=42475)

Deaths_Melancholy 05-21-2006 12:55 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Umm just posting my thoughts on this...

I think that the factors for being gay are hormonal and environmentally influenced. Now I know that the genes eventually control how much of what hormones you got going on in the blood, but you never know if the parents smoking or something affected that in the long run. Please do not flame me on this post as I do not hate any gay peoples untill they decide to make me uncomfortable by staring or something. Slight genetic differences can change a lot of things... I personally think it's more upbringing and environmental, as is with most things. I'm not saying that it isn't freedom of choice. There are probably a decent pecentage of gay people who do choose it without other factors. And now to answer the topic question. It cannot be just a gene that causes it, seeing as it just hasn't disappeared off the face of the planet, and genetic mutations take hundreds of years to form(as there are no offspring being produced to continue the gene spread. which is also now making me think whoever started this thread has no logic... If it isn't gone and nothing to spread the gene then it cannot be just the "gene" that makes it happen).

Overview: Cannot be just gene or it would've just dissappeared already.
My standpoint is that a "gene" could help but isn't the main factor

edit: forgot to throw into the overview that I AM NOT against gay people. I also have many gay friends and am usually comfortable with them around as long as they respect me and do not make me feel uncomfortable

edit2: in the main paragraph somewhere... meh.. more of my opinions.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 12:59 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Situational perhaps? As are most things.

Afrobean 05-21-2006 01:03 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
And what of the common homosexual behavior among animals? Do they all have mutant genes as well?

BluE_MeaniE 05-21-2006 01:04 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Z3ratul
Situational perhaps? As are most things.

Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaths_Melancholy
edit: forgot to throw into the overview that I AM NOT against gay people.

Oh, you are more than you think. Admit it first. Then you can fix it.

Afrobean 05-21-2006 01:06 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BluE_MeaniE
Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

Even behavior? I'd say that behavior is by far more environment.

PS homosexuality is a behavior.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 01:19 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BluE_MeaniE
Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

Hence situational. -_-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
Even behavior? I'd say that behavior is by far more environment.

PS homosexuality is a behavior.

I'd have to agree with you there. Unless people are saying that genetics determines behavior... in which case, there's no sense in talking about this because we fall back into that Determinism hole. It seems the debate right now is about whether or not homosexuality is a choice (environmental factors) or a fate (genetics). Which, as has been said, is probably situationally some combination (not necessarily balanced) of the two. If anybody has some emperical evidence that proves the case for one side or the other (like that book), I'd like to hear it.

ckj846 05-21-2006 01:35 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia
Natural selection is the process by which individual organisms with favorable traits are more likely to survive and reproduce. Natural selection works on the whole individual, but only the heritable component of a trait will be passed on to the offspring, with the result that favorable, heritable traits become more common in the next generation. Given enough time, this can lead to adaptation and speciation (see evolution).

Natural selection is the survial of the fittest to reproduce. Homosexuals obviously cannot reproduce.
O_o
Sorry, I didn't realize how many people posted. This is in reponse to jewpin's post.

Deaths_Melancholy 05-21-2006 02:42 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BluE_MeaniE
Most things are caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.


Oh, you are more than you think. Admit it first. Then you can fix it.

I don't get it...

talisman 05-21-2006 03:40 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
afro there isn't "proof" either way... evidence that supports the environmental stance is also all correlational. It's a logical fallacy to assume that a certain position is incorrect when in reality it only may or may not be correct, especially when the alternative position is in the same state of flux.

Point is that there's evidence to both sides, and if you actually want to make a real argument, you should find some that supports yours instead of just dropping your opinion in a vacuum.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 03:50 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
Point is that there's evidence to both sides, and if you actually want to make a real argument, you should find some that supports yours instead of just dropping your opinion in a vacuum.

I prefer the vacuum personally.

Chrissi 05-21-2006 10:53 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Homosexuals can reproduce if they wish. They might not wish to though.

aperson 05-21-2006 10:55 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Before we get too drawn out the original poster needs to learn what the difference between 'Darwinism' and 'Social Darwinism' is.

Hint: One is full of crap, the other isn't.


Edit:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrissi
Homosexuals can reproduce if they wish. They might not wish to though.

Uhh, if homosexuality is genetic, so much for genetic persistence... You might want to turn your brain on before you come into critical thinking again.

falconsfan14 05-21-2006 11:40 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Seems like a matter of choice, or something sick and wrong happened to you at childhood, like being raped by someone. Or say you grew up with 2 or 3 sisters that were older than you. Maybe you looked up to them, and wanted to be like them and when they started to like guys, so did you? Just a quick thought. =|

Afrobean 05-21-2006 11:58 AM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
afro there isn't "proof" either way... evidence that supports the environmental stance is also all correlational. It's a logical fallacy to assume that a certain position is incorrect when in reality it only may or may not be correct, especially when the alternative position is in the same state of flux.

Point is that there's evidence to both sides, and if you actually want to make a real argument, you should find some that supports yours instead of just dropping your opinion in a vacuum.

Yeah, I have no substantial proof.

However, the fact that the other side has no substantial proof as well is enough for me to assume that my side is correct. Why is that?

Because my side is the side of logic. Why would sexual preference be genetic? Yes, we should all be ingrained with the survival instinct which would lead us to want to reproduce. However, even this can be beaten (suicide, or people who have no wish to have children), so why wouldn't any naturally innate draw to the opposite sex be just as easily beaten, especially with certain people supporting the switch.

That aside, it is shown in many individuals that certain sexual behavior (ie S&M, pedophilia, exhibitionism) all seem to stem from traumatic childhoods or other special instances which result from their upbringing (for example, I heard a long time ago that males who are raised without fathers are more likely to be homosexual than if they had fathers). Why would homosexuality be any different in having it's roots in such things?

And by the way Talisman, me posting something which supports my side would serve no purpose. If you won't listen to the logic I post here and say "hmm that sounds right" then why would you believe a wikipedia article stating something like this:

Quote:

Since 1962 when our volume was published, I have interviewed about 1,000 male homosexuals and 50 pairs of parents of homosexuals. The classic pattern was present in more than 90% of cases. In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual. I have concluded that there is a causal relationship between parental influence and sexual choice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

aperson 05-21-2006 12:40 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean
Yeah, I have no substantial proof.

However, the fact that the other side has no substantial proof as well is enough for me to assume that my side is correct. Why is that?

Because my side is the side of logic.

If logic proved everything we'd all be philosophers.

Actually the correct stance is "Not enough information."

talisman 05-21-2006 01:03 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
uh, afro, I WOULD listen more to that wiki quote than your logic. Why should I listen to your logic? Am I to assume that you are an expert in the area? Citing a source like that helps your position immensely.

Btw, I'm not trying to take a position here because I don't really know myself, I've heard conflicting evidence. For example, I believe there was a study recently which found that as number of older male siblings increased, a males chances of being homosexual increased by a 33% factor each time.

talisman 05-21-2006 01:07 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
oh and for the sake of debate, the qualifying paragraph you didn't cite:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki
These reports have been criticized, particularly for confusing cause and effect. In other words, any tendency for gay males to bond more with their mothers than their fathers is more likely the result of homosexuality than the cause. The American Psychological Association has also criticized such reports, noting that the percentage of homosexuals is relatively constant across cultures, which is not what you would expect if parental influence were significant. The theory also fails to explain why homosexuality was nearly universal among males in ancient Greece, pre-modern Japan, and other cultures, or why animals exhibit homosexuality, particularly those species such as the Black Swans of Australia, where a male same-sex couple are the only parents of the brood. Animal biological research is beginning to parallel human research in its findings. The study of homosexual rams (Roselli et al. 2004 cited in LeVay, 2006) [16] revealed that in homosexual rams, the analogous brain structure indicated to be involved in human homosexuality showed similar size differences to those in humans.


Chrissi 05-21-2006 03:21 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
Before we get too drawn out the original poster needs to learn what the difference between 'Darwinism' and 'Social Darwinism' is.

Hint: One is full of crap, the other isn't.


Edit:


Uhh, if homosexuality is genetic, so much for genetic persistence... You might want to turn your brain on before you come into critical thinking again.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.... I never intended that. I'm quite WYSIWYG.

Z3ratul 05-21-2006 03:45 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson
Actually the correct stance is "Not enough information."

Pretty much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talisman
Btw, I'm not trying to take a position here because I don't really know myself, I've heard conflicting evidence.

Pretty much.

Yes, I know it's not really apropriate to simply 'agree' with somebody in CT, but when they've said the thoughts, I see no need to simply reiterate them. I've nothing to add.

All I can say is possibility and probability.

ckj846 05-21-2006 04:35 PM

Re: A question about gays/lesbians
 
Ok, I was rereading the book Genome by Matt Ridley and I found some interesting stuff on the "gay gene".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genome Page 116
Forgive the digression into intelligence. Let's get back to sex. Probably one of the most sensational, controversial and hotly disputed genetic discoveries was the announcement by Dean Hamer in 1993 that he had found a gene on the X chromosome that had a powerful influence on sexual orientation, or, as the media quickly called it, 'a gay gene'. Hamer's study was one of several published about the same time all pointing towards the conclusion that homosexuality was a 'biological' - as opposed to being the consequence of cultural pressure or conscious choice. Some of this work was done by ggay men themselves, such as neuroscientist Simon LeVay of the Salk Institute, keen to establish in the public mind what they were convinced about in their own minds: that homosexuals were 'born that way'. They believed, with some justice, that prejudice would be less against a lifestyle that was not a deliberate 'choice' but an innate porpensity. A genetic cause would also make homosexuality seem les threatening to parents by making it clear that gay role models could not turn youths gay unless they had the propensity already. Indeed conservative intolerance of homosexuality has recently taken to attacking the evidence for its genetic nature. 'We should be careful about accepting the claim that some are 'born to be gay', not just because it is untrue, but because it provides leverage to homosexual rights organisations', wrote the Conservative Lady Young in the Daily Telegraph on 29 July 1998

Ridley goes on to talk about the research and the statistics. I'll quote them for you if you want me to.
O_o


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