Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums

Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/index.php)
-   FFR Events (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/forumdisplay.php?f=62)
-   -   [Concluded] 11th Official Tournament - Round 8 (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=144476)

Elite Ninja 06-25-2016 09:39 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
ahueeeee guess where I got both goods

Razor 06-25-2016 09:52 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
4th year in a row where i get put in d5 then moved to d6 last minute

goodbye, i aint playin that cancerous garbage

ll sephirothll 06-25-2016 09:55 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
well FFR is ran by shit people jesse, you know this by now lmao

Walrusizer 06-25-2016 09:58 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
lol

Elite Ninja 06-25-2016 10:00 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Somebody quick call 911 because I'm too amazing!

Ok I'll shutup now...

psychoangel691 06-25-2016 10:01 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor (Post 4445576)
4th year in a row where i get put in d5 then moved to d6 last minute

goodbye, i aint playin that cancerous garbage

Placements aren't done until last minute, which was stated over and over and over again. Nobody was actually looked over until after signups were closed because people improve and it's better to look as close to start as possible.

ll sephirothll 06-25-2016 10:09 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
i just hope in the next official tournament they can make appropriate songs for appropriate divisions. the D4 round 1 song is like D5/ end round tourny song.

Walrusizer 06-25-2016 10:13 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445582)
i just hope in the next official tournament they can make appropriate songs for appropriate divisions. the D4 round 1 song is like D5/ end round tourny song.

why cant the difficulties be increased

Killionz 06-25-2016 10:51 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
TL;DR What exactly went in to this tournament? I have no place to say anything, but I've followed rhythm games for ages, and analyzed a lot of 4k maps. Is the idea here, to knock as MANY people as you can round 1, and then lay off in difficulty a little bit?

Like I said, I have no place to even comment on this, based off the division I'm in, but christ...
The D2 should be a D4/D5
The D4 should be a D5/D6
So on, so forth...

This has no bearing on everyone say... Rank 1-150ish, as the D7 file is appropriate, but it seems like you're expecting people to play at the top of their division, whether it be D1/D2/D3/D4, which is not the case.

I'm almost scared to see what the other rounds are like.

Regardless, best of luck!

AragakiAyase 06-25-2016 10:52 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
I'm not staff but I think the idea is to stop the AAA-fests that have been common in previous tournaments

hi19hi19 06-25-2016 10:54 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445592)
TL;DR What exactly went in to this tournament? I have no place to say anything, but I've followed rhythm games for ages, and analyzed a lot of 4k maps. Is the idea here, to knock as MANY people as you can round 1, and then lay off in difficulty a little bit?

Like I said, I have no place to even comment on this, based off the division I'm in, but christ...
The D2 should be a D4/D5
The D4 should be a D5/D6
So on, so forth...

This has no bearing on everyone say... Rank 1-150ish, as the D7 file is appropriate, but it seems like you're expecting people to play at the top of their division, whether it be D1/D2/D3/D4, which is not the case.

I'm almost scared to see what the other rounds are like.

Regardless, best of luck!

In the past, say the D4 difficulty file was in D6, and literally everyone AAA'd it
Every single person in the division.
And we would have to create tiebreakers that were actually hard.
Entire divisions AAAing, or cutoffs that were like, one boo happened way too often.
This format is just skipping to the "song that is actually hard" step.

Walrusizer 06-25-2016 10:54 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
too bad if the lower end players cant do them its a fucking tournament its not a fucking tee-ball game for 5 year olds where everybody wins

Killionz 06-25-2016 10:57 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Oh, preventing AAA-fests? What exactly is D6 turning out to be? I can already see 8-9 of them, and the rest are pretty much almost there.

Of course it's not a tee-ball game, and I never said that it should be one. However, having that much of a gap in relative difficulty, to ACTUAL difficulty, will turn a lot of people off.

I understand where you're coming from though, hihi, the first song should always be a "weeder". I'm not sure why that wasn't the goal in past tournaments.

flashpantss 06-25-2016 10:58 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walrusizer (Post 4445596)
too bad if the lower end players cant do them its a fucking tournament its not a fucking tee-ball game for 5 year olds where everybody wins

I like having my hand held like a small child though...

lofty rhino 06-25-2016 10:58 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Tee-balls

hi19hi19 06-25-2016 10:59 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445597)
Oh, preventing AAA-fests? What exactly is D6 turning out to be? I can already see 8-9 of them, and the rest are pretty much almost there.

Wait so you are complaining that the songs are too hard, but also pointing out that they seem to not be hard enough, at least in the case of D6.

What exactly are you saying?
Because I think D1-5 and D7 are perfect, and yeah D6 should have been harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445597)
I understand where you're coming from though, hihi, the first song should always be a "weeder". I'm not sure why that wasn't the goal in past tournaments.

Every round should weed people out!

Killionz 06-25-2016 11:02 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Every round should indeed weed people out, but what I'm getting at, is the d2 and d4 files are miles ahead of say... d1/d3/d5.

I don't think d6 should have been harder, but if the goal was to prevent AAA-fests, there's already one forming in D6, so I'm not sure why that principle didn't apply to d6, but it did to the rest.

Deidara837 06-25-2016 11:04 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445597)
Oh, preventing AAA-fests? What exactly is D6 turning out to be? I can already see 8-9 of them, and the rest are pretty much almost there.

Of course it's not a tee-ball game, and I never said that it should be one. However, having that much of a gap in relative difficulty, to ACTUAL difficulty, will turn a lot of people off.

I understand where you're coming from though, hihi, the first song should always be a "weeder". I'm not sure why that wasn't the goal in past tournaments.

The same amount of people will be eliminated each week regardless of whether or not the cutoff is 2g or 50g

In order to avoid far too many people getting AAAs we have harder songs to start out such that it's not a chore playing a boring song that people should be able to easily AAA in the first couple weeks accomplishing nothing

Also, the skillgaps across upper divisions are much larger than those of the lower divisions, each level is so much harder to achieve at the higher rankings

D6 is just a blender where several people are a couple levels off of D7
(also we have a pretty short file)

Figlar20k 06-25-2016 11:05 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
The D3 song is excellent imo coming from a mid-tier D3 player. It's hard enough where I'll never AAA it but not so hard I can't FC it which is exactly where the difficulty should lie imo and should get slightly harder as the tournament moves on.

I shouldn't be AAAing the first 3 rounds.

psychoangel691 06-25-2016 11:05 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4445601)
Wait so you are complaining that the songs are too hard, but also pointing out that they seem to not be hard enough, at least in the case of D6.

What exactly are you saying?
Because I think D1-5 and D7 are perfect, and yeah D6 should have been harder.



Every round should weed people out!

Hey keep in mind I thought the D6 file was an 80 and most people that looked at it prior to the tournament said 79/80 for it. I still don't even believe it will be AAA or die anyway.

I'm to a point now where I'm about to turn this into OSU! where there's just best of the best and that's that. It's pretty ridiculous that no matter what we do it's this constant complaint fest. How about it's a game, sit back enjoy and stop finding things to complain about. Previous tournaments "it's too easy" this tournament "it's too hard" well I guess you all should work your butts off and improve then huh? I warned everyone it was going to get harder, that I wasn't going to sit here and have it be where people come in first round, AAA first or second try and that's that.

hi19hi19 06-25-2016 11:05 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445602)
Every round should indeed weed people out, but what I'm getting at, is the d2 and d4 files are miles ahead of say... d1/d3/d5.

I don't think d6 should have been harder, but if the goal was to prevent AAA-fests, there's already one forming in D6, so I'm not sure why that principle didn't apply to d6, but it did to the rest.

Oh, so I think the confusion here is that you seem to think people making the files and running the tournament are omniscient gods who can tell exactly how well 60 other people they don't know very well will perform on the file.

This is not the case.

The goal was a nice spread with 1-2 people AAAing with a lot of work, down to the cutoff line where people were really struggling and getting weeded out, as you put it. This isn't really the case in D2 or D6, but it's hard to be perfect. I'm not defending that D6, for example, didn't turn out ideal, but this is definitely the best tournament opening since the site came back online.

If you think you can do better, I can go give you a list of the exact scores that people in the next round of certain division should be getting and you can go feel free to step a file that exactly fits that description. It's... pretty hard to do that. Not that people haven't tried in the past. *cough*

Deidara837 06-25-2016 11:06 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Figlar20k (Post 4445604)
I shouldn't be AAAing the first 3 rounds.

Whereas in previous tournaments you only made it to later rounds if you AAA'd the whole first half (or more) of the tournament

This setup is fine

(Edit: It may have not looked like it idk internet does that but I am indeed agreeing with you)

Killionz 06-25-2016 11:07 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Agreed, 100% actually, but as far as D6...

The skill gap in the bracket is so spread out, there should almost be an 8th division.

The majority of what I see, is some people SLAUGHTERING other people because of the huge skill jump between D6 & D7.

If that's not the case, there should be an A & B division (like TC_Halogen does with his tournaments) to prevent some of those issues.

Like I said, just my two cents! I'm not trying to argue with someone, but I don't agree with 75% of the way all of this has been set up so far.

I also heard that, depending on how well you do/progress overall, you can be bumped to higher divisions DURING the tournament. Can anyone confirm this? Because I would actually be amazed if that was the reality of getting better with 4k.

Walrusizer 06-25-2016 11:09 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
just remove divisions entirely

blanky! 06-25-2016 11:09 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Well I don't know about having the difficulties too high, some of the battles have to be close 'cause that creates more excitement for everyone. Like a later round song could probly have 2-3 people with single digit goods, fightin' it out for first place. Dunno about anything else (and it's worth reiterating that increased difficulties made the first round exciting [but who knows about later rounds??]) but that's based on my experience in the 8th official when D4's final round (Go Beyond) was balls-to-the-wall hard and the winner had a pretty significant margin.

/devilsadvocate

Deidara837 06-25-2016 11:10 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445610)
Agreed, 100% actually, but as far as D6...

The skill gap in the bracket is so spread out, there should almost be an 8th division.

The majority of what I see, is some people SLAUGHTERING other people because of the huge skill jump between D6 & D7.

If that's not the case, there should be an A & B division (like TC_Halogen does with his tournaments) to prevent some of those issues.

Like I said, just my two cents! I'm not trying to argue with someone, but I don't agree with 75% of the way all of this has been set up so far.

I also heard that, depending on how well you do/progress overall, you can be bumped to higher divisions DURING the tournament. Can anyone confirm this? Because I would actually be amazed if that was the reality of getting better with 4k.

In some user tournaments, D5 has been broken into D5A and D5B before. Don't remember if D6 ever has been.

Also in the 9th OT I was bumped from D1 to D2 in Round 1 but that was more of a misplacing than anything due to me not playing files in my skill range during my pre-competitive era

psychoangel691 06-25-2016 11:11 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445610)
Agreed, 100% actually, but as far as D6...

The skill gap in the bracket is so spread out, there should almost be an 8th division.

The majority of what I see, is some people SLAUGHTERING other people because of the huge skill jump between D6 & D7.

If that's not the case, there should be an A & B division (like TC_Halogen does with his tournaments) to prevent some of those issues.

Like I said, just my two cents! I'm not trying to argue with someone, but I don't agree with 75% of the way all of this has been set up so far.

I also heard that, depending on how well you do/progress overall, you can be bumped to higher divisions DURING the tournament. Can anyone confirm this? Because I would actually be amazed if that was the reality of getting better with 4k.

There's a skill gap in every single division, and no we're not adding an 8th division. This is getting to the point of ridiculousness. Let's just keep adding divisions till no one ever has to work for anything.

Like TC_Halogen does? I started that with my tournaments for the record and it will never happen in an official tournament.

People being bumped has to do with people who are suspected of holding back skill to be placed lower if they aren't removed completely for it. It's a case by case basis and doesn't happen that often. More often than not it happens because a player requests the bump.

hi19hi19 06-25-2016 11:11 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445610)
Agreed, 100% actually, but as far as D6...

The skill gap in the bracket is so spread out, there should almost be an 8th division.

The majority of what I see, is some people SLAUGHTERING other people because of the huge skill jump between D6 & D7.

Well, as one of the roadkill in that precise gap you are mentioning, I agree.
I also think that it's probably more work than you realize to create another division.
You get used to it. 2 Officials ago I was roadkill at the bottom of D5, then last official I worked my butt off and got 2nd place in D5.
Now I'm dead at the bottom of D6. I'd rather that than have the tournament become such a project it never happens at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445610)
If that's not the case, there should be an A & B division (like TC_Halogen does with his tournaments) to prevent some of those issues.

Like I said, just my two cents! I'm not trying to argue with someone, but I don't agree with 75% of the way all of this has been set up so far.

This has been suggested. The question is, where do you draw the line?
While I agree the like 60+ people in D5 is probably too big, I'd love to hear your argument for the ideal size of a division.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445610)
I also heard that, depending on how well you do/progress overall, you can be bumped to higher divisions DURING the tournament. Can anyone confirm this? Because I would actually be amazed if that was the reality of getting better with 4k.

Yeah this has happened in the past and is pretty stupid. Sometimes people ask to get bumped up, which is fine, but otherwise doing this involuntarily has as far as I can tell pretty much always been regarded as a mistake. I hope it doesn't happen this year. If people are truly sandbagging just ban them.

ll sephirothll 06-25-2016 11:11 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
stop fighting. the game is shit and dead and i dont understand why you guys even made another official lol

Gradiant 06-25-2016 11:13 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445618)
stop fighting. the game is shit and dead and i dont understand why you guys even made another official lol

Edgey

psychoangel691 06-25-2016 11:14 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445618)
stop fighting. the game is shit and dead and i dont understand why you guys even made another official lol

Then why are you here? Cool the trolling.

Walrusizer 06-25-2016 11:14 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445618)
stop fighting. the game is shit and dead and i dont understand why you guys even made another official lol

nobody cares

ll sephirothll 06-25-2016 11:16 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
that walrus mental kid is the one trolling lmao

TC_Halogen 06-25-2016 11:16 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445597)
Oh, preventing AAA-fests? What exactly is D6 turning out to be? I can already see 8-9 of them, and the rest are pretty much almost there.

Of course it's not a tee-ball game, and I never said that it should be one. However, having that much of a gap in relative difficulty, to ACTUAL difficulty, will turn a lot of people off.

I understand where you're coming from though, hihi, the first song should always be a "weeder". I'm not sure why that wasn't the goal in past tournaments.

With all due respect, you're missing the point of what this tournament was aiming to do. The overall idea was to reduce the number of perfect scores that came right out of the gates, and to more logically challenge the players within the division in a way without super-extreme cutoffs. In previous tournaments, players would find themselves eliminated in earlier rounds based off of their inability to do well on one song due to situations where the scores required to move to the next round were EXCESSIVELY low. There are numerous examples of this happening over the last five tournaments, but I think the most telling one was the cutoff to get into round 5 of the previous tournament for the same division you're talking about now: to get into round 5, players had to get a 1-0-0-2 or better on Poison of the Earth, which was an 82. The huge difference is not the difficulty, it's the amount of players contending with a given difficulty.

Yes, D6 has a VERY strong showing right now, but when you really think about it compared to previous tournaments, it's not quite as impressive and out of the ordinary as it seems. This current round 1 file is equal in difficulty to the round 3 song of the previous tournament, and that seems to be the case with just about every division -- this concept basically accelerates the tournament structure and is beneficial in two ways: it's more competitive and gives players who have substantial ability but not-so-lethal consistency an opportunity to play to their skill level later, and also allows for a wider breadth of difficulty from start to finish.

As far as why it wasn't the case in previous tournaments: you live and you learn. Five of the last six tournaments have been hosted by either me or psychoangel691, and things have been changed throughout the way, from the change to raw tournaments (8th), to an official D7 song list (9th), etc.

.Gazelle. 06-25-2016 11:16 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
M A D C U Z B A D
A D C U Z B A D A
D C U Z B A D A B
C U Z B A D A B Z
U Z B A D A B Z U
Z B A D A B Z U C
B A D A B Z U C D
A D A B Z U C D A
D A B Z U C D A M
:^)

hi19hi19 06-25-2016 11:19 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445624)
that walrus mental kid is the one trolling lmao

ll sephirothll

flashpantss 06-25-2016 11:24 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 

badman7772 06-25-2016 11:25 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
c'mon d5 let's keep the tradition going where badman gets eliminated round 1 and in trying fashion.

Killionz 06-25-2016 11:34 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4445617)
Well, as one of the roadkill in that precise gap you are mentioning, I agree.
I also think that it's probably more work than you realize to create another division.
You get used to it. 2 Officials ago I was roadkill at the bottom of D5, then last official I worked my butt off and got 2nd place in D5.
Now I'm dead at the bottom of D6. I'd rather that than have the tournament become such a project it never happens at all.


This has been suggested. The question is, where do you draw the line?
While I agree the like 60+ people in D5 is probably too big, I'd love to hear your argument for the ideal size of a division.


Yeah this has happened in the past and is pretty stupid. Sometimes people ask to get bumped up, which is fine, but otherwise doing this involuntarily has as far as I can tell pretty much always been regarded as a mistake. I hope it doesn't happen this year. If people are truly sandbagging just ban them.

Thank you, I can see that this is affecting you, and quite a few other people in D6. I'm not saying that you have to divvy up the tournament in to A & B for each division (however, it would almost have to be set up that way to be fair), but the reality is, there is a LOW D6, a mid-range D6, and a high-range D6 (those that will AAA [ and I'm sure the round will end with at LEAST 20-30 more people AAA'ing that file]). That is an issue, and I feel as though it will turn a lot of people off, after being knocked out in round 1. There is a great amount of set up & organizing that needs to be done for tournaments in general, but you should have the resources and team available to do so, and this seems like there were a minuscule amount helping out, and it was rushed. It doesn't have to be a project that becomes so "grueling" that it never happens at all. However, if it is not set up properly, and the majority of people that entered are pissed off enough over certain things, it probably shouldn't have happened, period.

This is tricky, and the solution to this would be extraordinarily variable, but after talking to a few people, and looking over some things, it would almost be better off divided up like this:
D1: 10-25
D2: 26-35
D3: 36-45
D4: 46-55
D5: 56-65
D6: 66-75
D7: 76-85
D8: 85+

This would allow for less of a "gap" to be formed in D6, and still hold as challenging for each player, in each division. There's other prospects to that argument, but I'll just refer to the latter for now. I'm not even trying to argue with anyone here. I appreciate the work that each and every organizer & staff member put in to this tournament, and am very appreciative that I could be a part of it, but some changes need to be made in order to keep everyone in line, and happy with what they can ACTUALLY ("cough" d2/d4 "cough") do.

This is an issue that can be avoided easily, as you already stated. If someone is TRULY sandbagging, why even keep them as part of the community. I don't understand... A tournament is a big thing for a community, and if someone wants to be that UNFAIR about it, kick their ass... don't allow them to come back. You won't make EVERYONE happy, but you can at least try your hardest. Bumping them up a division is not going to solve anything, I assure you. As far as people being bumped up involuntarily, or perhaps, NOT per their request, that's actually lame, especially if it happens during the tournament. If you can't determine someone's skill level prior to the tournament, and feel the need to bump them up AFTER a couple rounds, that's absolutely unfair to them, and absolutely a mistake. Something like that should not happen at all, ever.

Walrusizer 06-25-2016 11:37 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
just remove divisions so winning the tournament is actually skill based rather than being at the high end of your division based

AragakiAyase 06-25-2016 11:39 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445618)
stop fighting. the game is shit and dead and i dont understand why you guys even made another official lol

that's rich coming after this

Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445582)
i just hope in the next official tournament they can make appropriate songs for appropriate divisions. the D4 round 1 song is like D5/ end round tourny song.


Cold Kitten 06-25-2016 11:40 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445638)
D1: 10-25
D2: 26-35
D3: 36-45
D4: 46-55
D5: 56-65
D6: 66-75
D7: 76-85
D8: 85+

you're funny

MikeShinoda12345 06-25-2016 11:40 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
I want to be more careful of what I say because I feel like I'm on the upper end of my division and therefore have an inherent bias in favor of this tournament's structure, but I really like the idea of beginning the tournament at higher levels of difficulty and feel like much of the complaining is simply due to this being unexpected given previous tournaments

To perform well on a difficult song drives improvement AND is more fun than whoring a song repeatedly to shave a couple goods off your SDG. AAA-or-die cutoffs are less indicative of skill, I feel, and I'm really happy to see things moving in this direction and understand that the FFR staff have needed to intentionally request a lot of high-difficulty files from stepfilers in order to make this tournament play out this way

edit: yeah this is in response specifically to the song thing and not the larger debate about divisions

blanky! 06-25-2016 11:41 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Oook so since my earlier post didn't garner any responses...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445638)
I'm not saying that you have to divvy up the tournament in to A & B for each division (however, it would almost have to be set up that way to be fair), but the reality is, there is a LOW D6, a mid-range D6, and a high-range D6 (those that will AAA [ and I'm sure the round will end with at LEAST 20-30 more people AAA'ing that file]). That is an issue, and I feel as though it will turn a lot of people off, after being knocked out in round 1. There is a great amount of set up & organizing that needs to be done for tournaments in general, but you should have the resources and team available to do so, and this seems like there were a minuscule amount helping out, and it was rushed. It doesn't have to be a project that becomes so "grueling" that it never happens at all. However, if it is not set up properly, and the majority of people that entered are pissed off enough over certain things, it probably shouldn't have happened, period.

This is tricky, and the solution to this would be extraordinarily variable, but after talking to a few people, and looking over some things, it would almost be better off divided up like this:
D1: 10-25
D2: 26-35
D3: 36-45
D4: 46-55
D5: 56-65
D6: 66-75
D7: 76-85
D8: 85+

This would allow for less of a "gap" to be formed in D6, and still hold as challenging for each player, in each division. There's other prospects to that argument, but I'll just refer to the latter for now. I'm not even trying to argue with anyone here. I appreciate the work that each and every organizer & staff member put in to this tournament, and am very appreciative that I could be a part of it, but some changes need to be made in order to keep everyone in line, and happy with what they can ACTUALLY ("cough" d2/d4 "cough") do.

This is an issue that can be avoided easily, as you already stated. If someone is TRULY sandbagging, why even keep them as part of the community. I don't understand... A tournament is a big thing for a community, and if someone wants to be that UNFAIR about it, kick their ass... don't allow them to come back. You won't make EVERYONE happy, but you can at least try your hardest. Bumping them up a division is not going to solve anything, I assure you. As far as people being bumped up involuntarily, or perhaps, NOT per their request, that's actually lame, especially if it happens during the tournament. If you can't determine someone's skill level prior to the tournament, and feel the need to bump them up AFTER a couple rounds, that's absolutely unfair to them, and absolutely a mistake. Something like that should not happen at all, ever.

Welcome to the insanity that we call FFR.

Killionz 06-25-2016 11:41 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walrusizer (Post 4445640)
just remove divisions so winning the tournament is actually skill based rather than being at the high end of your division based


Mmm, spicy, but methinks you're hinting at FFR vs. Osumania, which is what I was trying to avoid, and will continue to avoid, because it bears no relevance.
This is a completely different game format, as such per the tournaments.

AragakiAyase 06-25-2016 11:41 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445638)
long post

as has been said earlier, where do you draw the line? There's always going to be a skill gap between divisions unless there's literally a division for each player. how big the gap seems to be is relative to the tournament structure, i.e. D5/D6 may seem bigger compared to say D3

One Winged Angel 06-25-2016 11:44 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
I mean the solution to every 'problem' in this thread is pretty obvious..

How many people entered this tournament and why isn't it equal to the number of divisions we have?

You're welcome tournament staff

Killionz 06-25-2016 11:45 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cold Kitten (Post 4445643)
you're funny

Because I made a suggestion? I don't expect anyone to listen to me, care, or really hear me out, but I'm getting my voice out there about all of this. I think that this is a very intelligent debate, with good suggestions, and I love debating with people on this. However, you, have added nothing intelligent to this. So if you'd like to hop in on this and discuss how you feel, go right ahead. If you're going to chip in two words, that have no relevance to what I said, I could really care less about what you have to say.

However, everyone has an opinion, as do I, so thank you for hopping in.

Killionz 06-25-2016 11:46 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AragakiAyase (Post 4445647)
as has been said earlier, where do you draw the line? There's always going to be a skill gap between divisions unless there's literally a division for each player. how big the gap seems to be is relative to the tournament structure, i.e. D5/D6 may seem bigger compared to say D3

There we go, this is what I ACTUALLY wanted to see.

hi19hi19 06-25-2016 11:52 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445638)
This is tricky, and the solution to this would be extraordinarily variable, but after talking to a few people, and looking over some things, it would almost be better off divided up like this:
D1: 10-25
D2: 26-35
D3: 36-45
D4: 46-55
D5: 56-65
D6: 66-75
D7: 76-85
D8: 85+

Ironically, I feel this is a far worse solution. There are SO many more people playing in the 56-75 range than in the novice divisions. It's pretty easy to improve in the D1/D2 skill level, but improving once you hit FMOs is a lot slower.
Under this system, D5 and D6 would be even bigger than they are now, I'd reckon, meaning extra work for the additional division, and the end result is worse.

Also I think this is where they "you're funny" comment comes from. Because this has been suggested every tournament, and it really doesn't work.
If there were to be an extra division, you'd have to squash it in between the current bottom of D7 and current mid-D6, and move current D6 and D5 down a bit, I think. It definitely wouldn't be a nice clean "every 10 difficulties" split like you have.

Deidara837 06-25-2016 11:54 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Divisions are arbitrary by nature though
That's why this issue can't be fixed by agreeing upon X number of divisions or where the cutoffs should be

So only a drastic format overhaul would get to the root of the problem

But at the moment, this method provides a framework for a standard elimination tournament, and a completely different format might not even be an improvement, just different thing with its own problems

hi19hi19 06-25-2016 11:57 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
The fairest way to do this is just have one division, and if you're not good at the game (i.e. high D7) then goodbye. This is the o!m system, basically.
The current division system was put in place to give novices a chance to participate, and ironically leads to players in the novice divisions complaining about it every tournament.

Whoo FFR!

EDIT- I should really finish my project with AJ asdfjk;asdf but I'm lazy

psychoangel691 06-25-2016 11:59 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4445653)
meaning extra work for the additional division, and the end result is worse.

I just want to note that I really don't have any issues with doing extra work for the tournaments, I really enjoy putting this all together. The issue is adding another division isn't going to solve the problem and imo there has to be a line drawn in adding divisions. I know how much it sucks being at the bottom, I've been bottom D5 forever but if I want to win I'm going to fight for it because I'd love to be better at this game.

I guess I can't understand this mentality here on FFR where a lot of people seem like they don't want to push themselves to improve. Yes this tournament is hard, and it's going to push a lot of people to their limits. I bet you we're also going to see a lot of people who boost up and improve a lot during this.

Cold Kitten 06-25-2016 11:59 PM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445650)
Because I made a suggestion? I don't expect anyone to listen to me, care, or really hear me out, but I'm getting my voice out there about all of this. I think that this is a very intelligent debate, with good suggestions, and I love debating with people on this. However, you, have added nothing intelligent to this. So if you'd like to hop in on this and discuss how you feel, go right ahead. If you're going to chip in two words, that have no relevance to what I said, I could really care less about what you have to say.

However, everyone has an opinion, as do I, so thank you for hopping in.

you complained about a AAA fest in d6. these difficulties would, for the most part certainly be followed by AAA fest.

Walrusizer 06-26-2016 12:01 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
ewwww effort how dare you force people to actually try how dare you

Killionz 06-26-2016 12:04 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ll sephirothll (Post 4445618)
stop fighting. the game is shit and dead and i dont understand why you guys even made another official lol

Hey, no more trolling man, that's not intellectual discussion.

What did you have for dinner? I had some bomb-ass Sloppy J's & pork beans.

I'm out for now -

Killionz 06-26-2016 12:07 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Walrusizer (Post 4445662)
ewwww effort how dare you force people to actually try how dare you

How about for each division, an excite bike marathon is implemented, and each round, the marathon increases by an hour.

Walrusizer 06-26-2016 12:07 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445666)
How about for each division, an excite bike marathon is implemented, and each round, the marathon increases by an hour.

yes

Kanzas 06-26-2016 12:09 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killionz (Post 4445666)
How about for each division, an excite bike marathon is implemented, and each round, the marathon increases by an hour.

You'd have to play like, what, 370~ times per hour?
That's absurd


Do it


Edit: Got a new USB Logitech k120 kb, so let's see how this works out!

TC_Halogen 06-26-2016 12:10 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4445658)
EDIT- I should really finish my project with AJ asdfjk;asdf but I'm lazy

:mrgreen:

hi19hi19 06-26-2016 12:11 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 4445669)
:mrgreen:

Don't u fucking :mrgreen: me mister

hi19hi19 06-26-2016 12:12 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
lol

Soundwave- 06-26-2016 12:32 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Also can we talk about how 9 out of 41 doesn't make a AAA-fest like there's still 32 spots where you can not AAA kbye.

bmah 06-26-2016 12:34 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by psychoangel691 (Post 4445659)
I guess I can't understand this mentality here on FFR where a lot of people seem like they don't want to push themselves to improve.

I'm guessing it's because people are too hung up about absolute equality in regards to skills and divisions, which is impossible to achieve when you set up multiple divisions. Perhaps every tournament should have some sort of quick preamble in regards to the nature of a multi-divisional tournament and the fact that it will inherently result in varied degrees of skill within each division. If people don't understand this, the only thing they'll be thinking about is how "rigged" it is, a kind of thought that trumps above all else, including suggestions to improve.

hi19hi19 06-26-2016 12:42 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundwave- (Post 4445678)
Also can we talk about how 9 out of 41 doesn't make a AAA-fest like there's still 32 spots where you can not AAA kbye.

I mean yeah, the top of D6 is doing well, but the cutoff for D6 is currently 61-9-10-13
That's really not that high a bar to jump over to make it to the next round and have another week to improve.

It'll obviously get tighter over the next few days, but D6 is anything but an AAA-fest.
Remember rounds where it would be posted and be AAA or die within a few hours?

Soundwave- 06-26-2016 12:43 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 4445679)
If people don't understand this, the only thing they'll be thinking about is how "rigged" it is, a kind of thought that trumps above all else, including suggestions to improve.

I hate to put it this way, but its accurate: divisions are simply to make people feel better in a sense; to allow people who don't stack up to still participate. Being top of your division is completely arbitrary and means nothing unless you're in D7, in which case you're the best.

But hey, slap #1 on something and people will pull all the salt and bs they need to get there.

Winrar 06-26-2016 12:51 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
I value my friendships in this stellar community.

inDheart 06-26-2016 12:55 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4445680)
I mean yeah, the top of D6 is doing well, but the cutoff for D6 is currently 61-9-10-13
That's really not that high a bar to jump over to make it to the next round and have another week to improve.

It'll obviously get tighter over the next few days, but D6 is anything but an AAA-fest.
Remember rounds where it would be posted and be AAA or die within a few hours?

grats d6 on being the first div where the cutoff is tougher than "play the song"

sickufully 06-26-2016 12:58 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
What about if there was 2 files per division released pre-tournament (or perhaps on another engine OR the previous years tournament files) that decided whether you are DXA or DXB? 1 file matching the difficulty of a round 1 file and the other matching a round 3 file, thus determining your potential progress? It doesn't have to be implemented for all divisions, maybe just 4>? Not sure if this has been mentioned/used in the past but I'm just throwing suggestions out there. Feedback?

bmah 06-26-2016 01:02 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundwave- (Post 4445681)
I hate to put it this way, but its accurate: divisions are simply to make people feel better in a sense; to allow people who don't stack up to still participate. Being top of your division is completely arbitrary and means nothing unless you're in D7, in which case you're the best.

But hey, slap #1 on something and people will pull all the salt and bs they need to get there.

So continuing from what I said here:
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 4445679)
Perhaps every tournament should have some sort of quick preamble in regards to the nature of a multi-divisional tournament

I also think the explanation should include the reason why divisions are used for these official tournaments: solely to make participation more inviting and open. The alternative - a divisionless tournament - is very much survival of the fittest and the true winner will really only be a D7 player. For a tournament in which all members of this site may be involved, this isn't the preferable situation.

Besides that reasoning, divisions are technically arbitrary, yes. Hope that explains things a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sickufully (Post 4445684)
What about if there was 2 files per division released pre-tournament (or perhaps on another engine OR the previous years tournament files) that decided whether you are DXA or DXB?

I find that 2 files are statistically insufficient to predetermine placements. Said 2 files can only test so much of a person's skill set.

V-Ormix 06-26-2016 01:06 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Winrar (Post 4445682)
I value my friendships in this stellar community.

:D

Pizza69 06-26-2016 01:08 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sickufully (Post 4445684)
What about if there was 2 files per division released pre-tournament (or perhaps on another engine OR the previous years tournament files) that decided whether you are DXA or DXB? 1 file matching the difficulty of a round 1 file and the other matching a round 3 file, thus determining your potential progress? It doesn't have to be implemented for all divisions, maybe just 4>? Not sure if this has been mentioned/used in the past but I'm just throwing suggestions out there. Feedback?

this would be a good idea if everyone could be 100% trusted, but in reality wouldn't really work because of sandbagging and rust

Jonlovesddr 06-26-2016 01:08 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanzas (Post 4445668)
You'd have to play like, what, 370~ times per hour?
That's absurd


Do it


Edit: Got a new USB Logitech k120 kb, so let's see how this works out!

do you wanna join team k120 with me

ZanmatoFusion 06-26-2016 01:17 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4445680)
I mean yeah, the top of D6 is doing well, but the cutoff for D6 is currently 61-9-10-13
That's really not that high a bar to jump over to make it to the next round and have another week to improve.

It'll obviously get tighter over the next few days, but D6 is anything but an AAA-fest.
Remember rounds where it would be posted and be AAA or die within a few hours?


This is absolute truth right here. For the past 5 tournaments I've been a part of, this is what it's been like. Especially, within the first 3 or 4 rounds of the tournament. I, personally, only made it past round 2 in D6 ONCE in 5 years. (Last year made it to Round 4 before being eliminated by a cut-off where it was a blackflag or better to advance)

The problem is, and I've said this to AJ and Kayla, D6 has always had a gap in skill. I've always been on the lower-mid lower end of the spectrum because come tournament time, I can never seem to skill boost like others can (Dammit). However, constantly making more and more divisions would be pointless. Here's the thing, I've ranted and raved over stuff a lot before, but now, I've kind of grown up to where, "hey, competition is what tournaments are about."

Everyone needs to understand this. If the complaining keeps going, I wouldn't be surprised to see an OSU style bracket tournament happen. That would be really upsetting.

In all honesty, competition is what makes people better. PRACTICE makes people better. There are so many tools out there to use to improve skill. (I.E. - Isolation Tool/Stepmania/Rates/etc.)

Just abuse these luxuries as MUCH as possible, and that's how you will advance. Eventually you'll hit your limit where your skill is where it's at and you either advance or you don't.

I've been a part of a grand total of 7 officials. Have never placed in top 8 once. Shit happens. I'll keep trying.

sickufully 06-26-2016 01:23 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 4445685)
I find that 2 files are statistically insufficient to predetermine placements. Said 2 files can only test so much of a person's skill set.

Yeah actually, I can see the problem here. The files would need to cater to all play styles and skill types as well as contain various patterns. Kinda difficult to determine from just 2 files and I can see multiple complaints arising from it. Scrap that idea :P

rushyrulz 06-26-2016 01:23 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
As someone who has competed in seven official tournaments (this one included), I have been at the tops of divisions, I have been at the bottoms of divisions, and I have been in the middle of divisions.

8 weeks is a looooong time to improve. I have seen people who were at the bottoms of their respective divisions work their asses off and place top 8. The only people who are kind of boned are those at the bottom of D7, D6 and maaaaybe D5 because that is when the skill level starts getting serious. I will admit that it would be very difficult for a bottom-D6er to fight their way up to the top and nearly impossible for someone in the same position in D7, but chances are that they have participated in a previous OT in a different division and done well.

See: my tournament badges
(and I was kinda hoping to get the D7 badge this time around, but I'm not quite there yet:()

If you find yourself stuck in the bottom of a lower division, you really have an opportunity to skillboost somewhat quickly up to the high-D4/low-D5 area if you have the patience and determination. If you find yourself at the bottom of a higher division, you should be motivated for the unique opportunity to play against a new set of players who are mostly better than you, and test your limits by trying to make it to the next round.

If there were to be a split in divisions, it would be at that "serious skill level" point around mid-upper D5 (swallowing up the lower end of D6), at perhaps the level 72-79 range. Another potential area for a split would be at the very upper end of D7 (92+), but there simply aren't enough players up there in the stratosphere to make a D8, even though D8 is already pretty much a thing conceptually.

We choose to stay with our 7-division system because it has worked in the past and individuals have shown the capability to skillboost up full divisions in previous tournaments. You may not see it now, but this particular tournament format where song difficulties are ramped up actually facilitates skillboosting by subjecting people to stepfiles outside their comfort zone, motivating them to try hard to excel instead of, "Round 4 is coming up tomorrow, time to AAA again...", and while the low-end players in each division might struggle to get a good score, if they are willing to put in the effort, they can benefit from the ramped up difficulties as well.

I think all the bickering about divisions themselves needs to stop. There's always room to improve, and if you're unable to do that quickly enough, there's always next year.

Have fun guys, this is supposed to be fun. (And I know most of you are)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sickufully (Post 4445684)
What about if there was 2 files per division released pre-tournament (or perhaps on another engine OR the previous years tournament files) that decided whether you are DXA or DXB?
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 4445685)
I find that 2 files are statistically insufficient to predetermine placements. Said 2 files can only test so much of a person's skill set.


Also, that's a sandbagger's wet dream.

Jonlovesddr 06-26-2016 01:28 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
i definitely do like the harder song to prevent AAA or die idea
problem is that i'm having a hell of a time trying to derust and i don't think i'll ever be better than low d5 lol

ZanmatoFusion 06-26-2016 01:29 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
I definitely know the feels of the official...... Wish I could place top 8 at least once ;P Gonna try hard lol


rushyrulz 06-26-2016 01:37 AM

Re: 11th Official Tournament - Round 1
 
And I forgot to mention, unfortunately there have to be hard lines separating the divisions which will always lead to people being at the top and people being at the bottom. It cannot be avoided. Even if there were 14 divisions, there would still be complaints. Considering a D5A/B situation, let's say D5A is 72-79, someone at the level 72 mark is going to get pummeled by the players at the 79 mark, and we are not going to have a hundred-division tournament.

Larger divisions allow cutoffs to be a lot less harsh, allowing those who are at the lower end and want to improve the opportunity to do so.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:04 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution