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-   -   deductive logic vs inductive logic (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=140874)

FoJaR 02-12-2015 09:05 PM

deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
lets have a good old fashioned throwdown.

is truth with a capital T important?

which has done more for the world, deduction or induction?

blindreper1179 02-12-2015 09:16 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
seduction

FoJaR 02-12-2015 09:21 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
listen i know that statistically a fojar thread is going to be in TGB, but sometimes they pop up other places too

blindreper1179 02-12-2015 09:23 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
I was being serious. =(

Artic_counter 02-12-2015 09:25 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Induction has, in my opinion, done more for the world than deduction. In fact, a lot of deduction arguments (in scientific fields) are possible due to the existence of theoritical models. Models which were created using induction (statistics and/or probability).

While premises and axioms may be regarded as approximations and semi-truths, they are incredibly usefull in practice. Baye's theorem, for exemple, is godly usefull in practice.

stargroup100 02-13-2015 05:38 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
I think it's a malformed question because we need to agree on the scope of which "logic" is applied.

I use deductive logic whenever I'm constructing a sentence or reading a sentence. I'm using deductive logic whenever I use any kind of mathematical construct (2+2=4).

I use inductive logic every time I stand up and walk. I use inductive logic every time I choose to eat and eat food.

Of course this is a bit nitpicky, but the point is that we need to agree on what qualifies as each kind of logic in this case and under what contexts. And even then I don't think that's really easy or even possible to do.


Even if it wasn't a malformed question, ultimately I think it's a meaningless one as well. The foundation of all sciences is inductive reasoning. However, the models we use to understand and use science must utilize deductive reasoning. Why do we care which one has done more? What practical real world advantage can we gain by knowing the answer to this question?

FoJaR 02-13-2015 07:28 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4275714)
I think it's a malformed question because we need to agree on the scope of which "logic" is applied.

I use deductive logic whenever I'm constructing a sentence or reading a sentence. I'm using deductive logic whenever I use any kind of mathematical construct (2+2=4).

I use inductive logic every time I stand up and walk. I use inductive logic every time I choose to eat and eat food.

Of course this is a bit nitpicky, but the point is that we need to agree on what qualifies as each kind of logic in this case and under what contexts. And even then I don't think that's really easy or even possible to do.


Even if it wasn't a malformed question, ultimately I think it's a meaningless one as well. The foundation of all sciences is inductive reasoning. However, the models we use to understand and use science must utilize deductive reasoning. Why do we care which one has done more? What practical real world advantage can we gain by knowing the answer to this question?

that's my question for all of philosophy...

FoJaR 02-13-2015 07:46 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
i dont really mean that. some of philosophy is useful.

but philosophers are rarely useful.

stargroup100 02-13-2015 08:55 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4275905)
that's my question for all of philosophy...

That doesn't make your question any less useless or meaningless.

Arch0wl 02-13-2015 09:31 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
What do you mean by "done more for the world"? advanced humanity technologically? given us a better understanding of reality, independent of technological application? made us happier?

The world doesn't give a shit if we're here or not. Logics are just methodologies we make up to make sense of reality. You'd need to define your criteria more specifically before you can talk about which system has done more, because otherwise the criteria are left to be interpreted by the unconscious biases of the reader and one person may not have the same criteria as you.

FoJaR 02-13-2015 09:45 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
lets talk about criteria

stargroup100 02-13-2015 09:49 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
You're the one that brought up the question, and nobody here seems to think this question is meaningful or useful, so you should be the first one to refine your question before any of us can respond in any way.

And I still don't see the point in even discussing this, because you still haven't explained how this is even remotely practical in any sense of the word.

stargroup100 02-13-2015 09:54 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
It would be stupid of me to start a thread with a question such as "Are we more experiencing reality or existing in it?" and then when called out for being a dumb question no one can understand, then say "Okay, you guys tell me what this means then."

FoJaR 02-13-2015 10:05 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
or you could take what i say at face value, and maybe think of what criteria is relevant, or maybe break your argument down based on critera.

or you could be an asshole.

FoJaR 02-13-2015 10:09 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arch0wl (Post 4275994)
What do you mean by "done more for the world"? advanced humanity technologically? given us a better understanding of reality, independent of technological application? made us happier?

i would argue that induction has done more for all of the examples you gave. you can induce that 2+2=4, and in a lot of ways, that's exactly how we learn that 2+2=4, we see it happen more than once and learn that that's how it is.

most things that can be found deductively are learned or proven via induction.

Quote:

The world doesn't give a shit if we're here or not. Logics are just methodologies we make up to make sense of reality. You'd need to define your criteria more specifically before you can talk about which system has done more, because otherwise the criteria are left to be interpreted by the unconscious biases of the reader and one person may not have the same criteria as you.
that's fine, if someone else has different criteria i'd like to hear what they are.

stargroup100 02-13-2015 10:35 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276012)
You're the one that brought up the question, and nobody here seems to think this question is meaningful or useful, so you should be the first one to refine your question before any of us can respond in any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276023)
or you could take what i say at face value, and maybe think of what criteria is relevant, or maybe break your argument down based on critera.

or you could be an asshole.

You literally just completely ignored my post. My post directly responds to yours that came after.

You really should take some time reading into what other people are saying instead being totally nonsensical and expect us to play your shitty little game.

Because I can play this game too. Completely ignoring your points to just repeat mine ad nauseum is easy.

FoJaR 02-13-2015 10:59 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276012)
You're the one that brought up the question, and nobody here seems to think this question is meaningful or useful, so you should be the first one to refine your question before any of us can respond in any way.

And I still don't see the point in even discussing this, because you still haven't explained how this is even remotely practical in any sense of the word.

strange because i've had a few legitimate responses.

why is practicality necessary?

reuben_tate 02-13-2015 11:16 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276026)
proven via induction.

Just to make things clear, proof by induction (i.e. mathematical induction) is actually a deductive argument and not an inductive argument.

It's a bit unfortunate that the terminology that's used doesn't fill well together.

EDIT: Also, you can deductively prove that 2+2=4 if you define things well enough.

Arch0wl 02-13-2015 11:34 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276010)
lets talk about criteria

I just asked you to do that, when I said that we can't even answer your question until we know what "doing things for the world" means. If you want people to propose their own criteria, that's fine I guess, but they'll basically be re-phrasing your question for you and answering their own question themselves.

Also, I gave you examples off the top of my head. There are innumerable things someone could mean by "done things for the world", and are by no means limited to the examples I gave you.

stargroup100 02-13-2015 11:41 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Your responses simply restate what you originally said, and do not add anything new. I explained the problem with your original statement, and so you should either revise your original statement or explain the problem with my criticism, and you did neither.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276093)
why is practicality necessary?

Simply because I need a reason to care. If you told me that something existed but no one will ever be able to detect it or interact with it, then it doesn't affect my life in any way and so I have no use for something like that.

In what way will knowing the answer to this question affect anyone's life?

FoJaR 02-13-2015 11:50 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arch0wl (Post 4276164)
I just asked you to do that, when I said that we can't even answer your question until we know what "doing things for the world" means. If you want people to propose their own criteria, that's fine I guess, but they'll basically be re-phrasing your question for you and answering their own question themselves.

Also, I gave you examples off the top of my head. There are innumerable things someone could mean by "done things for the world", and are by no means limited to the examples I gave you.

alright how about human technological advancement

FoJaR 02-13-2015 11:53 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276169)
Your responses simply restate what you originally said, and do not add anything new. I explained the problem with your original statement, and so you should either revise your original statement or explain the problem with my criticism, and you did neither.


Simply because I need a reason to care. If you told me that something existed but no one will ever be able to detect it or interact with it, then it doesn't affect my life in any way and so I have no use for something like that.

if you dont care, dont post.

Quote:

In what way will knowing the answer to this question affect anyone's life?
now if there was ever a vague and unanswerable question, it is this one.

stargroup100 02-14-2015 12:31 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276174)
now if there was ever a vague and unanswerable question, it is this one.

No it's actually very clear. All I need is any kind of demonstrable effect as a result of the answer to the question.

For example, we do care about the properties of electrons because we can use that information to create technology that we can use. We don't care whether or not there exists a unicorn flying outside of the universe because living assuming it exists is exactly the same as living assuming it doesn't exist. The answer to this question literally does not impact anyone's life.

FoJaR 02-14-2015 12:37 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
that's a red herring. it has nothing to do with the OP.

try again?

stargroup100 02-14-2015 12:47 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
It doesn't address your actual question, but it's a way of asking why your question even matters. If your question is meaningless, then we don't need to answer it in the first place. So it's not irrelevant.

Otherwise, I could ask any meaningless question, and when someone points it out I could just say "that's a red herring". It doesn't work that way.

FoJaR 02-14-2015 11:16 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4275714)
I think it's a malformed question because we need to agree on the scope of which "logic" is applied.

I use deductive logic whenever I'm constructing a sentence or reading a sentence. I'm using deductive logic whenever I use any kind of mathematical construct (2+2=4).

I use inductive logic every time I stand up and walk. I use inductive logic every time I choose to eat and eat food.

Of course this is a bit nitpicky, but the point is that we need to agree on what qualifies as each kind of logic in this case and under what contexts. And even then I don't think that's really easy or even possible to do.


Even if it wasn't a malformed question, ultimately I think it's a meaningless one as well. The foundation of all sciences is inductive reasoning. However, the models we use to understand and use science must utilize deductive reasoning. Why do we care which one has done more? What practical real world advantage can we gain by knowing the answer to this question?

see, deductive logic might lead you to this conclusion, but i've had lots of discussions about topics that are vague, or topics whose application isn't readily apparent that end up being interesting and insightful, and give a practical real world advantage, to use your words.

inductive logic would tell me that this topic, however vague, is probably worth discussing.

stargroup100 02-14-2015 12:29 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
What has done more for the world, existence or causality?

stargroup100 02-14-2015 12:54 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Thinking that something vague might be worth discussing is the result of deductive logic. Knowing that this topic is not worth discussing is the result of inductive logic.

see what i did there?

FoJaR 02-14-2015 12:58 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276271)
Thinking that something vague might be worth discussing is the result of deductive logic.

how so?

Quote:

Knowing that this topic is not worth discussing is the result of inductive logic.

see what i did there?
then dont discuss it?

stargroup100 02-14-2015 01:03 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276274)
then dont discuss it?

i enjoy toying with you if you havent noticed

stargroup100 02-14-2015 01:03 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276236)
see, deductive logic might lead you to this conclusion

How so?

FoJaR 02-14-2015 01:05 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276278)
i enjoy toying with you if you havent noticed

yeah, you like flaming in the CT forum, i get it.

FoJaR 02-14-2015 01:07 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276279)
How so?

you're right, there isnt any logic that validates your statement.

it's a baseless claim.

FoJaR 02-14-2015 01:09 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
broad questions are no less valid, and whether or not something is meaningful is subjective. whether or not you get any practical real world advantage is almost impossible to quantify.

you should narrow the scope of your criticism.

stargroup100 02-14-2015 05:51 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Whether or not something uses deductive logic or inductive logic is also subjective and impossible to quantify, so your question is still pointless.

FoJaR 02-14-2015 05:58 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276413)
Whether or not something uses deductive logic or inductive logic is also subjective and impossible to quantify, so your question is still pointless.

how is that subjective?

stargroup100 02-14-2015 06:10 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276286)
broad questions are no less valid, and whether or not something is meaningful is subjective.

How is this subjective?

FoJaR 02-14-2015 08:42 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
what is meaningful to one person might not be meaningful to another person

stargroup100 02-14-2015 10:25 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276490)
what is meaningful to one person might not be meaningful to another person

What is inductive logic to you is not what inductive logic is to me. Also subjective.

FoJaR 02-14-2015 10:39 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
except that's not true

stargroup100 02-14-2015 11:44 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
It's not true because I redefined what you meant by "inductive logic."

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276490)
what is meaningful to one person might not be meaningful to another person

This is not true either. You redefined what I meant by "meaningful". I explicitly told you what I meant by meaningful when I wrote my post, something that is a matter of objectivity not subjectivity. And yet you discarded that and used an entirely different meaning, changing my point.

You are not intellectually honest.

austin4evr 02-15-2015 01:01 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
I got something meaningful out of the discussion already. "Oftentimes intelligent people will use their intelligence to dodge needing to use it, and stretch their brains with the use of open ended (in this case extremely so) discussion." A discussion can be worth more than its parts much like a piece of art is worth more than the paint put into it. That being said, inductive and deductive reasoning is really the question of the chicken and the egg with fourth dimensional concepts.

FoJaR 02-15-2015 01:32 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276413)
Whether or not something uses deductive logic or inductive logic is also subjective and impossible to quantify, so your question is still pointless.

this is completely false.

stargroup100 02-15-2015 01:39 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276621)
this is completely false.

This statement is completely false.

FoJaR 02-15-2015 01:45 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4275714)
Even if it wasn't a malformed question, ultimately I think it's a meaningless one as well. The foundation of all sciences is inductive reasoning. However, the models we use to understand and use science must utilize deductive reasoning. Why do we care which one has done more? What practical real world advantage can we gain by knowing the answer to this question?

i think the problem here is that you dont understand what you're talking about.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-inductive/

read the first paragraph and then maybe revise your opinion.

scientific models are inductive.

inductive logic is an extension of deductive logic, but once you make an inference, your logic is inductive.

if you're still having trouble, i'll put it this way: inductive reasoning can contain deductions, but it is still inductive reasoning. deductive reasoning cannot contain inferences, or it becomes inductive reasoning.

so really the question is valid as asked, though the "which has done more for humanity" was a little vague. but it was left vague for a reason, because the things that inductive and deductive reasoning have accomplished usually fall into different domains.

stargroup100 02-15-2015 01:45 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by austin4evr (Post 4276609)
I got something meaningful out of the discussion already. "Oftentimes intelligent people will use their intelligence to dodge needing to use it, and stretch their brains with the use of open ended (in this case extremely so) discussion." A discussion can be worth more than its parts much like a piece of art is worth more than the paint put into it. That being said, inductive and deductive reasoning is really the question of the chicken and the egg with fourth dimensional concepts.

The thing that you learned in this thread is not a result of the initial question being posed. There are other things we could discuss that would lead you to come to the same conclusion. Therefore, it is nothing to do with the initial topic of the thread.

And inductive/deductive reasoning doesn't work in the chicken/egg analogy. In the chicken/egg analogy, the chicken produces and egg, and the egg produces a chicken, in a cycle. Inductive reasoning does not produce deductive reasoning, and vice-versa.

Inductive and deductive reasoning are both concepts that almost all humans intrinsically use at almost any given point in their lives, if you want to break it down far enough. Almost no decision/thought can be explained or justified without some degree of both inductive and deductive reasoning, so trying to isolate them from each other is pointless.

I also have no idea what you mean by "fourth dimensional concepts".

FoJaR 02-15-2015 01:46 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276624)
This statement is completely false.

pretty sure it's not. see above.

stargroup100 02-15-2015 01:54 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276629)
i think the problem here is that you dont understand what you're talking about.

I don't think you understand that most of the my posts in this thread are not serious and are actually satirizing your faulty logic.

However, for once most everything you've said is mostly correct. No major problems until here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276629)
so really the question is valid as asked, though the "which has done more for humanity" was a little vague. but it was left vague for a reason, because the things that inductive and deductive reasoning have accomplished usually fall into different domains.

The problem is not that the question needs to be vague, it's that the question is not clear enough. As you already stated, inductive reasoning can utilize deductive logic. The problem is how you separate what each "accomplishes".

This is why this question doesn't make much sense to me. [Almost] all inductive reasoning requires deductive reasoning in order to be justified and made sense of. All deductive reasoning holds no real demonstrable significant unless applied to reality, which therefore utilizes inductive reasoning. Suppose inductive reasoning has done more. So what? It doesn't mean we need to use more inductive reasoning or less deductive reasoning. It doesn't change how we use either of them. So why does the answer to this matter in any demonstrable way?

FoJaR 02-15-2015 02:00 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
so you think that purely deductive logic has done nothing?

i guess that is the real sticking point then

stargroup100 02-15-2015 02:34 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FoJaR (Post 4276644)
so you think that purely deductive logic has done nothing?

i guess that is the real sticking point then

If you twist my words that way, then pure inductive logic has done nothing as well.

You clearly already have a bias towards thinking that deductive logic is somehow inferior to inductive logic, so at this point you're not looking at my arguments rationally but simply looking to confirm your own biases.

You're not intellectually honest.

FoJaR 02-15-2015 02:44 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4276648)
If you twist my words that way, then pure inductive logic has done nothing as well.

inductive logic is deductive logic where you make inferences. there is no such thing as pure inductive logic as you are attempting to define it.

Quote:

You clearly already have a bias towards thinking that deductive logic is somehow inferior to inductive logic, so at this point you're not looking at my arguments rationally but simply looking to confirm your own biases.
you are making some unfounded inferences. i think you would call that a strawman

Quote:

You're not intellectually honest.
you're not intellectually honest.

i think i'm getting the hang of this...

no wonder nobody posts in this forum

stargroup100 02-15-2015 02:58 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
In order to call out people for logical fallacies, you have to know what the fallacy is, the person actually has to be making that fallacy, and you have to explain why what they said/did is that fallacy.

If we could just assert people are making fallacies without justification then what's the point?

FoJaR 02-15-2015 03:02 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
yeah that's what i did

Syhto 02-23-2015 05:57 PM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
nice jerk off session guys

when do we start thinking critically

BrokenKeysEverywhere 03-15-2016 04:34 AM

Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
 
In a literal sense, Induction. This would be due to induction meaning to add (there are other meanings, I know). And even in an non-literal sense, deduction isn't useful in living life besides reminding us that gravity is weighing people down rather than doom-and-gloom . . . That was a pun.
And besides, deductive mathematics isn't helping the natural world and is just burdening the society (the people), while building up the artificial world.


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