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deductive logic vs inductive logic
lets have a good old fashioned throwdown.
is truth with a capital T important? which has done more for the world, deduction or induction? |
Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
seduction
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listen i know that statistically a fojar thread is going to be in TGB, but sometimes they pop up other places too
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I was being serious. =(
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Induction has, in my opinion, done more for the world than deduction. In fact, a lot of deduction arguments (in scientific fields) are possible due to the existence of theoritical models. Models which were created using induction (statistics and/or probability).
While premises and axioms may be regarded as approximations and semi-truths, they are incredibly usefull in practice. Baye's theorem, for exemple, is godly usefull in practice. |
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I think it's a malformed question because we need to agree on the scope of which "logic" is applied.
I use deductive logic whenever I'm constructing a sentence or reading a sentence. I'm using deductive logic whenever I use any kind of mathematical construct (2+2=4). I use inductive logic every time I stand up and walk. I use inductive logic every time I choose to eat and eat food. Of course this is a bit nitpicky, but the point is that we need to agree on what qualifies as each kind of logic in this case and under what contexts. And even then I don't think that's really easy or even possible to do. Even if it wasn't a malformed question, ultimately I think it's a meaningless one as well. The foundation of all sciences is inductive reasoning. However, the models we use to understand and use science must utilize deductive reasoning. Why do we care which one has done more? What practical real world advantage can we gain by knowing the answer to this question? |
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i dont really mean that. some of philosophy is useful.
but philosophers are rarely useful. |
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What do you mean by "done more for the world"? advanced humanity technologically? given us a better understanding of reality, independent of technological application? made us happier?
The world doesn't give a shit if we're here or not. Logics are just methodologies we make up to make sense of reality. You'd need to define your criteria more specifically before you can talk about which system has done more, because otherwise the criteria are left to be interpreted by the unconscious biases of the reader and one person may not have the same criteria as you. |
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lets talk about criteria
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You're the one that brought up the question, and nobody here seems to think this question is meaningful or useful, so you should be the first one to refine your question before any of us can respond in any way.
And I still don't see the point in even discussing this, because you still haven't explained how this is even remotely practical in any sense of the word. |
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It would be stupid of me to start a thread with a question such as "Are we more experiencing reality or existing in it?" and then when called out for being a dumb question no one can understand, then say "Okay, you guys tell me what this means then."
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or you could take what i say at face value, and maybe think of what criteria is relevant, or maybe break your argument down based on critera.
or you could be an asshole. |
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most things that can be found deductively are learned or proven via induction. Quote:
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You really should take some time reading into what other people are saying instead being totally nonsensical and expect us to play your shitty little game. Because I can play this game too. Completely ignoring your points to just repeat mine ad nauseum is easy. |
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why is practicality necessary? |
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It's a bit unfortunate that the terminology that's used doesn't fill well together. EDIT: Also, you can deductively prove that 2+2=4 if you define things well enough. |
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Also, I gave you examples off the top of my head. There are innumerable things someone could mean by "done things for the world", and are by no means limited to the examples I gave you. |
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Your responses simply restate what you originally said, and do not add anything new. I explained the problem with your original statement, and so you should either revise your original statement or explain the problem with my criticism, and you did neither.
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In what way will knowing the answer to this question affect anyone's life? |
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For example, we do care about the properties of electrons because we can use that information to create technology that we can use. We don't care whether or not there exists a unicorn flying outside of the universe because living assuming it exists is exactly the same as living assuming it doesn't exist. The answer to this question literally does not impact anyone's life. |
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that's a red herring. it has nothing to do with the OP.
try again? |
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It doesn't address your actual question, but it's a way of asking why your question even matters. If your question is meaningless, then we don't need to answer it in the first place. So it's not irrelevant.
Otherwise, I could ask any meaningless question, and when someone points it out I could just say "that's a red herring". It doesn't work that way. |
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inductive logic would tell me that this topic, however vague, is probably worth discussing. |
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What has done more for the world, existence or causality?
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Thinking that something vague might be worth discussing is the result of deductive logic. Knowing that this topic is not worth discussing is the result of inductive logic.
see what i did there? |
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it's a baseless claim. |
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broad questions are no less valid, and whether or not something is meaningful is subjective. whether or not you get any practical real world advantage is almost impossible to quantify.
you should narrow the scope of your criticism. |
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Whether or not something uses deductive logic or inductive logic is also subjective and impossible to quantify, so your question is still pointless.
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what is meaningful to one person might not be meaningful to another person
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except that's not true
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It's not true because I redefined what you meant by "inductive logic."
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You are not intellectually honest. |
Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
I got something meaningful out of the discussion already. "Oftentimes intelligent people will use their intelligence to dodge needing to use it, and stretch their brains with the use of open ended (in this case extremely so) discussion." A discussion can be worth more than its parts much like a piece of art is worth more than the paint put into it. That being said, inductive and deductive reasoning is really the question of the chicken and the egg with fourth dimensional concepts.
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http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-inductive/ read the first paragraph and then maybe revise your opinion. scientific models are inductive. inductive logic is an extension of deductive logic, but once you make an inference, your logic is inductive. if you're still having trouble, i'll put it this way: inductive reasoning can contain deductions, but it is still inductive reasoning. deductive reasoning cannot contain inferences, or it becomes inductive reasoning. so really the question is valid as asked, though the "which has done more for humanity" was a little vague. but it was left vague for a reason, because the things that inductive and deductive reasoning have accomplished usually fall into different domains. |
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And inductive/deductive reasoning doesn't work in the chicken/egg analogy. In the chicken/egg analogy, the chicken produces and egg, and the egg produces a chicken, in a cycle. Inductive reasoning does not produce deductive reasoning, and vice-versa. Inductive and deductive reasoning are both concepts that almost all humans intrinsically use at almost any given point in their lives, if you want to break it down far enough. Almost no decision/thought can be explained or justified without some degree of both inductive and deductive reasoning, so trying to isolate them from each other is pointless. I also have no idea what you mean by "fourth dimensional concepts". |
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However, for once most everything you've said is mostly correct. No major problems until here: Quote:
This is why this question doesn't make much sense to me. [Almost] all inductive reasoning requires deductive reasoning in order to be justified and made sense of. All deductive reasoning holds no real demonstrable significant unless applied to reality, which therefore utilizes inductive reasoning. Suppose inductive reasoning has done more. So what? It doesn't mean we need to use more inductive reasoning or less deductive reasoning. It doesn't change how we use either of them. So why does the answer to this matter in any demonstrable way? |
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so you think that purely deductive logic has done nothing?
i guess that is the real sticking point then |
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You clearly already have a bias towards thinking that deductive logic is somehow inferior to inductive logic, so at this point you're not looking at my arguments rationally but simply looking to confirm your own biases. You're not intellectually honest. |
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i think i'm getting the hang of this... no wonder nobody posts in this forum |
Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
In order to call out people for logical fallacies, you have to know what the fallacy is, the person actually has to be making that fallacy, and you have to explain why what they said/did is that fallacy.
If we could just assert people are making fallacies without justification then what's the point? |
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yeah that's what i did
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Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
nice jerk off session guys
when do we start thinking critically |
Re: deductive logic vs inductive logic
In a literal sense, Induction. This would be due to induction meaning to add (there are other meanings, I know). And even in an non-literal sense, deduction isn't useful in living life besides reminding us that gravity is weighing people down rather than doom-and-gloom . . . That was a pun.
And besides, deductive mathematics isn't helping the natural world and is just burdening the society (the people), while building up the artificial world. |
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