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-   -   Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=134839)

drizzleRomanceGirl 01-24-2014 04:54 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynam0 (Post 4064995)
It's legal to wear one's pants below the normal belt line thereby exposing one's undergarments (boxers/briefs/thongs etc.), however this behaviour is classified as immature and frowned upon by adults. I'm immature as hell for a lot of things, but it's hard not to pass judgement on some behaviours when you see them. If this whole maturity debate is driven by opinion, then there isn't a right or wrong answer for what you're looking for. Adults expecting others to be mature is irritating to you because in your opinion, immature behaviours should not be scrutinized. These adults aren't wrong in their judgements and neither are you in being irritated by it :p

Thank you Dynam0, you helped me understand that I need to accept that some people are going to judge and/or insult me. I need to be able to take what others tell me with a grain of salt and follow my own beliefs. :)

Izzy, I couldn't care less what you think about me, but please don't derail this thread.

I understand that learning to act in the interest of society is helpful, but I think the way some people attack others' self-esteem and behavior is revolting. In my opinion, people who think it's their duty to judge and incriminate the immature actions of others are losing a huge sense of community. The very definition of maturity seems to be to act the way society expects others to while discouraging opinions and critical thought. If this kind of thinking continues, we might eventually turn into a society similar to the one depicted in the novel titled The Giver by Lois Lowry.

In this novel, no one has deep feelings for anyone else, and everyone is forced to conform to society. These people are discouraged from thinking for themselves and are told false information from their birth so that they can live in an ignorant Utopian society. They are told what to do, which job to adopt by the time they are 12-years-old, and even whether they are eligible to have children. Furthermore, if anyone tries to escape from the city they're imprisoned inside, they are killed without the escapee even knowing what death means, and mistakenly believe they will be transported to another place.

Is this really the life we are heading towards?

Poison- 01-24-2014 05:05 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drizzleRomanceGirl (Post 4065263)
Thank you Dynam0, you helped me understand that I need to accept that some people are going to judge and/or insult me. I need to be able to take what others tell me with a grain of salt and follow my own beliefs. :)

Izzy, I couldn't care less what you think about me, but please don't derail this thread.

I understand that learning to act in the interest of society is helpful, but I think the way some people attack others' self-esteem and behavior is revolting. In my opinion, people who think it's their duty to judge and incriminate the immature actions of others are losing a huge sense of community. The very definition of maturity seems to be to act the way society expects others to while discouraging opinions and critical thought. If this kind of thinking continues, we might eventually turn into a society similar to the one depicted in the novel titled The Giver by Lois Lowry.

In this novel, no one has deep feelings for anyone else, and everyone is forced to conform to society. These people are discouraged from thinking for themselves and are told false information from their birth so that they can live in an ignorant Utopian society. They are told what to do, which job to adopt by the time they are 12-years-old, and even whether they are eligible to have children. Furthermore, if anyone tries to escape from the city they're imprisoned inside, they are killed without the escapee even knowing what death means, and mistakenly believe they will be transported to another place.

Is this really the life we are heading towards?

No it is not

reuben_tate 01-24-2014 10:04 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
You have to realize though that you do in fact live in a society. Sure, everyone could be like "lol, screw everyone else, I'm gonna do whatever I want" but that doesn't make for a productive society. A lot of the social norms however just make sense. For example, if you agreed to meet your friend in 5 minutes, acting like "oh, the law doesn't say I have to meet my friend on time" is a poor excuse for being 3 hours late. Many of the social constructs are put in place because their reasoning is based on the consideration of others (sometimes even including yourself). Other social norms may seem ridiculous or obscure but give them a chance to think about why they exist in the first place.

Also, just putting it out their, if adjusting to social norms and being mature is an exhausting activity in itself, then spend more time with friends; when you're good friends with someone, over time you build up a mutual understanding of what actions are tolerable :P

devonin 01-24-2014 10:41 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
I just don't understand how 'maturity' is supposed to somehow be mutually exclusive from doing fun things, or having 'childish' hobbies.

I'm mature. I run a business, I have meetings, I wear suits and ties now and then and have grown up talk with the other grownups, and then I read sci-fi/fantasy, play Magic and D&D and World of Warcraft and go to gaming conventions.

Maturity is not about "someone not having to babysit you" it is about you meeting your end of the deal for living in a society. At a certain point, the adults who labour and provide things for everybody say "Okay, we've given you enough, now you have to start earning it." And you need to start earning it.

Does that mean they are trying to "force" you to be mature? No, they're calling in a debt you put yourself into when you let your parents feed and clothe you for your childhood and adolescence.

Does that mean you must be universally "A grown up" and forever completely stoic and independent? Of course not. You just have certain obligations you need to meet first.

stargroup100 01-24-2014 10:47 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
I will admit I haven't had much time to think about this but from just cursory scrutination, I think the point of social norms that are not "obvious" is two-fold. They create a standard that can potentially reduce conflict and misunderstanding when two sides of an issue are both valid, and they tell people what is acceptable or unacceptable because someone doesn't believe the majority is capable of coming to that conclusion on their own. But they're still social norms, and not rules or laws. While society does pressure us to conform to these norms, (at least in our US government) no one is forcing us to.

I think you guys covered this already, but I'll summarize from a different point of view. When most people use the word "mature" in this context, they're probably referring to traits that pertain to a person being independent, responsible, and respectful. These are all positive traits. There's nothing wrong with wanting a person to be better. People that fight this are usually more concerned about personality. They don't want to sit there and be boring, inactive, calm, whatever personality traits people associate with maturity. Personality is something you can't and shouldn't change, and this is not what maturity is about. It's a matter of speaking the same language here.

Pseudo Enigma 01-24-2014 11:27 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
>The Giver
>Dystopia

I don't think it's ever going to get that extreme

Cavernio 01-24-2014 11:52 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
So what do we do with disabled when they utterly fail to meet society's expectations? Ignore them and let them die?

devonin 01-24-2014 11:56 AM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Mature people work hard enough, have enough resources and have the generosity to be willing to provide for people who -want- to be able to contribute and can't.

Good thing we have mature people to set up and fund health care systems, and afford nurses and homecare workers.

If everybody just hung out and did what they wanted and didn't let "adults" "make" them be "mature" then the disabled WOULD just get ignored and die.

Cavernio 01-24-2014 12:42 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
So if I just -want- to contribute that's enough? Surely you see the problem with this; wanting to do something and not having the ability to do it results in mental anguish. You are constantly a failure and you know it and it will just feed a depression along with whatever disability the person has. This is neither helpful from an individual perspective or a societal one.

Ah, but unless you're obviously keenly wanting to be productive, you're labelled by others as selfish and lazy etc if whatever disability you have isn't obvious. Leave the catch 22. Maybe you're not just trying hard enough. Try again. Keeping failing. That helps, right? That's what one's supposed to do?

Dynam0 01-24-2014 01:05 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 4065355)
Mature people work hard enough, have enough resources and have the generosity to be willing to provide for people who -want- to be able to contribute and can't.

Good thing we have mature people to set up and fund health care systems, and afford nurses and homecare workers.

If everybody just hung out and did what they wanted and didn't let "adults" "make" them be "mature" then the disabled WOULD just get ignored and die.

I think we need to change our definition of what it really means to be immature then. It's as you said in your previous post; your hobbies outside of your professional life might be considered immature by society in general when they really aren't immature at all in context. If someone works hard to be self-sufficient and has made strides to contribute to society, while making wise decisions and willing to learn from bad ones, that's maturity. It's reached when people have enough lived experiences to make beneficial moral choices for themselves and others on their own terms; there is no set age for reaching this point. What they do in their personal life is another story and is at worst an eccentricity at that point and not immaturity imo

Cavernio 01-24-2014 01:10 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
I was more mature at 12 than I am now.

Dynam0 01-24-2014 01:14 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 4065381)
Ah, but unless you're obviously keenly wanting to be productive, you're labelled by others as selfish and lazy etc if whatever disability you have isn't obvious. Leave the catch 22. Maybe you're not just trying hard enough. Try again. Keeping failing. That helps, right? That's what one's supposed to do?

Keep trying and don't tell yourself that you can't do something. It's really cliche but it's better to keep trying to run up the slide than sit at the bottom.

Pseudo Enigma 01-24-2014 01:15 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynam0 (Post 4065397)
Keep trying and don't tell yourself that you can't do something. It's really cliche but it's better to keep trying to run up the slide then sit at the bottom.

^

as I said earlier, it's like hurting yourself to get stronger. You're going to be weak as always if you never hurt yourself.
...I really wish I could put that in a better way.

if you're disabled you're just going to have to find some way. I know it's harsh, but that was how natural selection worked.

Dynam0 01-24-2014 01:27 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pseudo Enigma (Post 4065399)
if you're disabled you're just going to have to find some way. I know it's harsh, but that was how natural selection worked.

Don't be a fool. Some people do require assistance at some point if they cannot provide on their own. It sounds like I'm contradicting my post, but Cavernio is obviously intelligent and has the ability to do great things (though she may say otherwise); it was applying to her. Some people really cannot feasibly provide for themselves, so the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Pseudo Enigma 01-24-2014 01:36 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynam0 (Post 4065405)
Don't be a fool. Some people do require assistance at some point if they cannot provide on their own. It sounds like I'm contradicting my post, but Cavernio is obviously intelligent and has the ability to do great things (though she may say otherwise); it was applying to her. Some people really cannot feasibly provide for themselves, so the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

I didn't say leaning on others wasn't a possibility. Sorry if it sounded like that. Humans naturally lean on each other. It's all we're good for.

TheSaxRunner05 01-24-2014 01:46 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
I'd change someone's personality if I were able, and if they were a complete douche. Sure you can't make people change, but you can certainly let them know when they're actions aren't appreciated. There's often an attitude of "just let them be" when it comes to these sort of people. I've found if you don't address them, they just continue to piss in the drinking water (figuratively). Those kind of people negatively affect everyone they meet.

devonin 01-24-2014 01:49 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
We tell ourselves that the thing that makes us better than the animals is that we don't discard the sick, elderly and disabled. We've "evolved past" the point of needing natural selection to keep us going. We can modify our environment around ourselves sufficiently that natural evolution has functionally stopped, and we have the excess resources needed to support people that are unable to contribute.

But of course 'contribute' is a word that needs defining too. Cavernio seems to want to define it like "Have a job in the commercial market" or something, which of course has nothing whatsoever to do with contributing. It's -a- way to contribute, but it's very far from being the only way.

Cavernio 01-24-2014 01:51 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
And here's where people think I have low self-esteem. I don't think I do, because I have experienced low self-esteem before. I know I'm good at a great many things. I'm frustrated by my mental health. It negatively affects every aspect of my life.

I'm sorry drizzleromancegirl, this is a CT thread and I should treat it as such. It really depends on what you're doing that someone else thinks is immature in how it's either a good thing or a bad thing. If someone is judging you negatively because you are being immature and there's no real downside to your immaturity on the given subject, then fuck them. If on the other hand you're being immature and it negatively affected someone else, the mature thing to do is consider how it negatively affects the other person and what you'd need to do to change it and then think about whether or not it's worth it to change your actions so that it won't happen again, or even if it's feasible to change your actions.

Some people call certain actions immature when maturity has little to do with it. Rather, it may simply be a social expectation that ultimately has little bearing on anything and you're not doing what someone else expects and they're so off-put by you not fulfilling that expectation that they call you immature. I've been called immature for things outside my control, like getting a flat tire. (No idea where it came from, I drive like an old person most of the time, slowly)

As everyone else has said though, mature actions in general make the world go round. They usually have a purpose where if at least x% of people aren't mature, society would crumble.

reuben_tate 01-24-2014 01:52 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
If anything, acting all arrogant and thinking that you can do each and every single thing by yourself with no assistance is just as immature as someone who is "babysitter" and gets assistance even for the things they could easily do themselves. Being responsible means you do what you need to do to get things done and sometimes that requires you to kindly ask for or accept the assistance of others. If your house is on fire, you don't say "I don't know how to extinguish a fire this large, oh well" and let it burn, you call 911 and ask for the assistance of firefighters.

drizzleRomanceGirl 01-24-2014 03:36 PM

Re: Why is the Idea of Adults Expecting Others to be Mature so Irritating to Me?
 
I would like to point out that I'm not against acting mature; what I'm irritated about is the societal pressure and sometimes even insulting attitude that some people seem to possess when anyone is acting against social expectations.

People in general do not agree to any of the social expectations placed on everyone from when they are born until the day they die. I agree that being mature in many situations leads to a productive society. However, when people lower others' self-esteem by insulting someone's character instead of the sole immature action, this usually leads to a lower morale. As a result, this personal attack will most likely hinder the latter group's productivity in the long run. Furthermore, I don't understand the reasoning of how attacking someone's self-esteem when behaving immaturely, when most of these people have never agreed to these expectations in their entire lives, is justified.


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