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I wasn't done with atheism/theism
Forward: This was very purposefully made a CT topic, and while I feel that its a topic that is and has been easily derailed many, many times, I don't think there was a need to lock or move the thread. I think many posts should have been edited or perhaps deleted to avoid the 'you're dumb' part of them, and I also feel that it's unfair for a moderator to feel like a thread or comment is derailed when they themselves haven't bothered to follow it. There were a number of different topics being discussed in the thread, and right up to the last page I learned things/thought of things I hadn't thought about. Lock this or delete it or whatever if you feel I've done wrong or whatever, but I'm going to write this anyways.
I respect you and I understand at least part of where you're coming from jj, but you've made a fatal logical error, and it is apparent in many of your posts, and I don't believe anyone's exactly pinpointed it, although there's definitely been talk around it. "But in all these posts I haven't read not one reason why someone doesn't believe in God except to say that he doesn't believe he exists because he can't prove he exists. While on the other hand, I have gave countless reasons why I believe by qouting many passages from the Bible to explain them." When you have a theory, and you want to scientifically test it, you don't use the same data to run experiments on. That's circular reasoning and ends up proving nothing and you might as well be saying 'It's so because I make it so'. When you say the Bible gives you proof for Gods existence, it's the exact same thing. You can't use evidence that already requires belief of what you are proving as proof. It's 100% circular. And because there is so much anti-religion sentiment these days, its crystal clear to most people that this is what you are doing, (even though I find people will not see themselves making those same errors in so many other aspects of their lives), which is why people have called you stupid. I believe you have a fairly good grasp of the principles of needing proof though, because you have said that people themselves are fallible and cannot know everything, and I feel like you've pointed out that people themselves, by being bound within ourselves, fall into the same logical error of lacking any proof. Therefore everything we think and experience is all circular within ourselves. What I failed to grasp when you brought this topic up, however, is how believing in God circumvents this. Yes, if god exists then God by definition is omniscient which would, of course, allow us some sort of True clarity into existence. But there seems to be a rather serious missing link in what you're saying that everyone who doesn't believe in God sees; if I believe in God then that belief is also still within the realm of our own, self-supporting selves. To reiterate, even if God lies outside these bounds, your belief in God doesn't. (Which leads to an atheism vs agnostism argument, which is what reincarnate has gotten into, and that I think was best understood in a post he made a few years ago, but I can't even remember if it was ct or chit chat or if he was even the OP.) Now you have also touched upon the idea that it is a sad, imperfect, lonely existence without God, not just for all the reasons that people have pointed out, but because then you know that nothing is fully real, that we are all just ourselves, that there is no proof of anything REAL. But then you turn around use your feelings and thoughts and ideas as proof that there is something real, and then illogically conclude that God must exist because otherwise, nothing real would exist. But all along, it's just been your perceptions, which you know are limited. All of it, Godly or secular (which I suppose means all Godly to you). Maybe you wonder how you can possibly exist without God. But then you can in the same vein wonder how can God possibly exist. But God just exists...umm, obviously, it's God. But you just exist...obviously, you're here. And now we are led to the ideas about feeling and beliefs being strong enough to count as proof of God. And so I ask again, if you didn't have emotions, if you didn't experience God's love, would you believe in God? And if you stopped feeling God's love, at what point would you start questioning how you lost God's love when you did nothing to stop God's love? I'm not talking about God's love as being portrayed through His actions, like killing your family or something, and then you rejecting God. I'm talking about actually losing God's love even though you have only tried ever harder to love and please God, even though you don't reject Him. At what point would your own self-perceptions of God not be strong enough for God to exist? Why do you think that peope who haven't found God must not be trying? Why do people who believe in God (jewish) believe in the same God as people who believe Jesus was God's son? And the follow-up, how can people who only know half of God say they know God just as much as you do if Jesus matters so much to being loved by God? Once you answer that, then why does it matter that ANYONE believes in God in order to experience God's love? Why is it not possible for every secular person to experience God's love all the time if God loves everyone? If it is always possible to feel God's love, then why do I have to be religious, ie: why would I have to attribute this love to your specific god when I could attribute it to Life or Existence, things that are so much stronger to my perceptions? (You can't call back on 'Because God exists' because that's circular reasoning and is not logical, and if you use arguments that are obviously not logical, then there's no point in debating or no way of gaining any sort of understanding.) Why would you think someone would be wrong if they prayed to The Spaghetti God? What makes your belief so strong that you know God but I don't? In order to answer all of these questions properly, don't use circular logic. |
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Thank you Cavernio for your considerate post and your thoughtful questions. I will do my best to answer them to the best of my knowledge.
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"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:7-8 Quote:
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“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” 1 John 2:22-23 Quote:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 Quote:
Gods enemies killed his first born Son. What could be worse that putting the son of God, Jesus Christ to death? Especially the way they did it. Can you think of anything? I honestly can’t myself. Yet Jesus prayed to his heavenly father, “please forgive them for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34) Here Christ showed love for those who put him to death and asked his father to not hold this against them. Where did he learn this kind of love? From his Father of course. Although God loves you, He hates the continous sin that you commit against him. Because Jesus Christ took YOUR punishment died for YOUR sins, it is not too late to be accepted into Gods grace by confessing, repenting, and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Quote:
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I hope I answered all of your questions to your satisfaction and understanding. If I did not, I apologize. I can try my best to clarify anything else you may wish to know. |
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Nice use of circular logic in every single answer.
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Cavernio, I have been following the topic and will continue to follow it, even if I haven't been particularly active in the conversation itself. I'm not here to constantly edit and delete posts if they consistently become off-topic. I moderate, but I don't babysit. The onus is on everyone to keep this thread relevant.
So play nice. :) |
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You say it's a matter of "loving God" but you seem to continually dodge the question of "Why God in the first place"? Why do you think God exists? Because you feel it? Do you think things are true just because you feel it?
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I don't see why you brushed off this question so hastily. Could you explain your answer? Quote:
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So here we have an omniscient, omnipotent being, setting up a human society so that, by their own rules, they have to commit a "crime" which, actually, has no real long-term repercussions to Him. Then, He blames the society, and implies that they were evil enemies of God, for doing exactly what He planned to happen. Somehow this seems a little unfair to me. |
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The first time I held the bible in my hand and began perusing through the most important excerpts of the religion, I just could not bare the amount of inconsistencies and contradictions that were comprised in this manuscript alone. Even if you believe in God or not, the "sacred words" in which you place your faith so much are man-made and have been distorted and filtered many times throughout history.
JJTrix, don't take what I'm gonna say wrongly, I'm just trying to express the reason behind why your arguments have been miscomprehended. I could be much more inclined to what you defend if you could actually disregard the bible as a guideline to your faith and back your beliefs through rational knowledge or at least philosophical arguments. The problem is you seem to adhere to an older version of faith defended through fideism which causes questions directed to you to be left unanswered. All in all, there seems to be a unbridgeable gap between faith and reason in your religious mentality. It would greatly help if you could detach yourself from a traditional viewpoint of your faith and become an independent thinker for distinguishing between what the Catholic Church has wrote and what truly makes sense to you in christianity. |
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"And the follow-up, how can people who only know half of God say they know God just as much as you do if Jesus matters so much to being loved by God?" (My response) There is no "half of God" to know. You either know God or you don't. They are liars. It says so in the scriptures: “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” 1 John 2:22-23 Jews don't believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. Therefore, they do not know God, the father. Quote:
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lol
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I'll ask again because you dodged it the first time
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Quote: Originally Posted by Reincarnate Why do you think God exists? Because you feel it? Do you think things are true just because you feel it? For you to assume "I think God exists" would make me an agnostic atheist such as yourself, would it not? I know God exists. |
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I'm sorry, I have posted in a hurry and made confusion. Please replace "catholic" with "christian" and answer to a question for once.
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I think ya'll getting trolled. Just saying.
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Yo I just want to go on record saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster has done way more for my life than any other omniscient being has.
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This is not a hard question: You say you know God exists. How do you know?
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I'm more or less referring to those by saying that you don't answer to questions but rather dodge them:
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How do you know God exists? How can you claim to know God? |
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2Tim.3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God 1Thes.2:13 Ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the Word of God Heb.1:1 God...spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets 2Pet.1:21 Men of God spake as they were moved by Holy Ghost 2. God's Word is eternally true and never fails: 1Ki.8:56 There hath not failed one word of all His good promise Psa.119:89 Forever, O Lord, Thy Word is settled in Heaven Psa.119:160 Every one of Thy judgements endureth forever Isa.40:8 The Word of God shall stand forever Isa.55:10,11 So shall My Word be...it shall accomplish...and prosper Mat.24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words [never] Jn.10:35b The Scripture cannot be broken (cancelled, annulled) 1Pet.1:25 The Word of the Lord endureth forever 3. The Importance of God's Word: Deut.32:46,47 Set your heart unto all the Words...for it is not a vain thing for you; it is your life Psa.138:2b Thou (God) hast magnified Thy Word above all Thy name A. Jesus is the "Word made flesh": Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God Jn.1:14 The Word (Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us Rev.19:11-13 His (Jesus') name is called the Word of God (See also 1Jn.1:1) B. The power of the Word: Jn.6:63 The Words that I speak, they are spirit and they are life Psa.33:6,9 By the the Word of the Lord were the heavens made... He spake, and it was done Rom.1:16 Gospel of Christ...is the power of God unto salvation Heb.11:3 The worlds were framed by the Word of God 2Pet.3:5-7 Earth...by the Word, kept in store, reserved unto fire 4. The Bible was written for our benefit: Psa.102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come Jn.19:35 He (John) that saw it bare record...that ye might believe Jn.20:31 These are written that ye might believe Rom.15:4 Written for our learning, that we through...the Scriptures might have hope 1Cor.10:11 And they are written for our admonition (See also 1Jn.5:13) 5. Keeping (obeying, heeding) the Word: A. It's important to heed and keep the Word: Deut.11:1 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, and keep His...statutes, and His judgments, and His commandents, alway Heb.2:1 We ought to give more earnest heed to the (Word) 2Pet.1:19 Sure Word...ye do well that ye take heed B. Obeying and keeping the Word proves we know and love Jesus: Psa.119:167 My soul kept Thy testimonies; I love them exceedingly Jn.8:31 If ye continue in My Word, then are ye My disciples indeed Jn.14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments Jn.14:21,23 If a man love Me, he will keep My Words Jam.1:22-24 Be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only 1Jn.2:3 Hereby we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments 1Jn.5:3 This is the love of God...keep His commandments 2Jn.6 This is love, that we walk after His commandments Rev.3:8 Thou...hast kept My Word, and hast not denied My name |
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So you believe in the Bible because the Bible says so?
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(clap)
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stop trolling you numpty |
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Therefore, when told about your religion you should answer that you place your faith in the Bible but not in the words of God as the only rational evidence we can observe is that God is the repercussion of the Bible, and not the other way around. You basically say "I believe in God because the Bible says so". Where is your faith in God then? In the Bible. And therefore, your faith in God consists of more faith? Would you admit that there is no rationality in that sense and therefore, no existence of God apart from in your faith? Quote:
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I believe in Hatsune Miku. I believe in Miku's word because it was sung in her songs.
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"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" Numbers 23:19 If God lied, then I guess the Bible would not be credible. So I challenge you to find me one lie within the Bible. Good luck :) The stories in the Bible are historical fact, not myths. If you can "prove to me" otherwise then you would have done something that atheists such as yourselves were not able to do for thousands of years. No theories, no excuses. |
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Men wrote the bible through the "word of god". Men lie. (clap)
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This thread is in the Critical Thinking forum. Arguments based on logical fallacies do not have merit. |
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Doesn't matter, the Bible's full of stuff that's demonstrably false.
And almost nobody follows it literally -- they have to pick and choose what to follow. Kind of odd considering it's the Word of God and all... |
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We've come to a loophole in the christian doctrine. |
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What makes me happy is the idea to reflect on my beliefs and discuss of the perceptions of the others. If that's not in your taste you have no obligation coming here and telling all of us we're a bunch of pricks for doing so and that we're all going to die eventually. I don't even think this thread was evolving half as bad as the last one. You can just pass if you are offended with people discussing their opinions, we can live with that.
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"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything." -GB Shaw
Nothing has bred as much intolerance towards our fellow man as religion has. So much death and persecution has been done in the name of religion, and it's still happening. If we are to succeed, we need to work with our fellow man and focus on fixing what is immediately important, the tangible realm of existence you and I currently reside in, not what may or may not happen in the unproven afterlife. We need to do away with these intolerant beliefs which are holding us back, and be united not as christians or muslims or jews etc, but as the human race so that we truly explore the vastness and beauty of space, both inner and outer. There is no need for religion, a person can live a full and rewarding life without any faith. Almost every aspect of human interaction that is claimed to come from religion is as easily and more properly attributed to instinctive survival social interactions that we share with animals. The concern that "yol'll go to hell if you don't belive" is not supported by any reputable evidence. |
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As of me, I think religion serves a purpose of faith and moral (reassurance in death) solely and should not be taken as a way of thinking. Either way, there is no evidence in the Bible that says how to use it correctly and it certainly doesn’t say anywhere if it has to be the only component of our faith. |
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My responses are not for the purpose to prove anything to you. I can not prove why God exists to you. Only God can prove to you why he exists. I can only share with you the knowledge that was given to me through God. You can either choose to accept it or not. That's your choice. How can you learn anything if you are not willing to accept anything? When you are in grade school, or high school, or college, do you not sit and listen to the information that your teacher/professor shares with you? How do you expect to pass your courses if not to study the material that is to be given during a test or exam? The reality is this: you are choosing which bits of information you are willing to accept rather than keeping an open mind as to the possibilites of what information or knowledge is out there that you currently do not know. Just like now, you do not know God, but if you truly wanted to know God, why spend your time disproving him instead of accepting the "word" that is given to you? When you want to pass a math test, do you not try to understand the material given by taking notes or mentally storing it, or do you spend your time constantly arguing with your math professor as to why such an equation came to be; one who is trying to teach the class the material so that they may learn? Most of you who ask me about God don't want to know about God, so you will not understand. Just like those of you who do not want to pass a math test, will not study or will not pay attention in class, so you will not understand all of it and most likely not do well on the test. If your central focus is to argue or dispute everything you don't understand, then frankly, you don't understand life. This only makes you horrible listeners and eventually miserable people, even though you won't openly admit it. do any of you hope to get married one day and start a family? What do you think marriage is? What is marriage based on? Do you think you can honestly say you can manage a beautiful loving family if you're constanly arguing with them over petty things that are unnecessary to argue about to begin with? Is it not better to just forgive the mistakes that occur and continue to love instead of always blaming people for their actions? Why be a hypocrite? You have to surrender your ego and pride and admit that you do not know everything, and must respect the fact that there is an ultimate authority that is greater than you and I. I know when some of you respond to posts like these are quick to mock or dismiss certain claims, but have you ever really taken the time to think about the reason why you do this? Are you really content with being this way? There is so much all of you can learn if only you opened your hearts as well as your minds, not because I said so, but because there is something greater then yourselves. A lot of you demand proof and evidence and are quick to want and want and want more. Why be so concerned with what you want? Is that not selfish? When you live amongst a collection of people who constantly want soo much for their own-selves, does that not bring about chaos? Why waste your time arguing and fighting and always trying to find a reason to prove something wrong when you can spend that time loving your family and friends as you would wish for them to love you? Don't divide yourselves from each other and think you can do everything yourself. You can't. The very foundation of a functioning society is based on the collaboration of multiple familes, not just your own. I continue to post in this thread despite all the disrespectful trolls because if I can shed some light on just 1 person reading through this thread, then I would have done my job in helping a fellow brother or sister. |
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This thread is always destined to be dumb. Just stop, please. All of the atheists on this site honestly would not give a shit about your beliefs if you didn't try to use your "proof" for God to convert us. Your proof is shit. This thread is shit. I'm mad. |
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That's not what he intends. He thinks that, since he was probably indoctrinated, when you "learn" something you actually have to interiorize every single aspect of it without any critical thinking.
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Circular thinking + dodging questions is all I've seen in this thread. Some people have brought up pretty logical arguments and you've seeked to quash them in quite baffling ways. Hands down, the arguments here are meretricious at best. However, due to some of my human nature, I am not beneath arguing about my beliefs. |
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Why should I believe in God if I can be happy without beliefs? Serious question.
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I'm not trying to convince you to believe anything but, your god doesn't exist in the way you think it does.
God is as real as that Vegeta/Whoever that is in your profile picture JJTrixX. |
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Why do people need to believe in God when they can be happy without those beliefs? Isn't life not about the betterment of one's psyche (through wellness exercises and critical thinking; not necessarily spiritual enlightenment) and physical state? |
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This thread makes me sad
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Neeeeeeeeeeeeerd. |
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But since the results are not predictable, I believe there is no valid reason whatsoever in believing in a deity. Edit: At least in a consequentialist sense. |
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All good except the analogy is fundamentally wrong
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How can God prove to someone that He exists? What would such a proof entail? Quote:
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JJTrixX, much of your post comes off as religious preaching. That's not the purpose of this thread. edit: wow I cannot keep up with the posting rate here |
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it's times like this that make me wish Christopher Hitchens was alive and active on ffr forums
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I said I wasn't going to take this thread seriously, but JJTrixX's responses are absolutely terrible and make me really mad.
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@ xValorx you are correct. |
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This is a lost cause. EDIT: If there IS a God, he will let this thread DIE. I am miserable as a result of this thread and God isn't giving me enough divine intervention to numb the pain of reading half this shit. |
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Praise the Flying Salmon Monster.
Amen. |
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