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the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
First of all, this may belong in Critical Thinking, but I wasn't quite sure. It seemed more like something that everybody here could discuss, so I'm putting it here for the time being, but if it's in the wrong place, I would have no issue if a mod just moved it over.
Backstory: in the summer, our Composition class was assigned to write a dialogue about a philosophical question ala Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Naturally, I decided to write about Stepmania because that's how I roll. I had also been thinking about the game recently, mostly because of how much my family disapproved of it. I shared the essay with a couple of people, and all had some very interesting things to say, so I was wondering what you guys would all think. Be warned, it is corny because it's written from my perspective, but oh well. Is there really validity to the comparison between Stepmania and real musicians/real music? What do you guys think? |
Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
This really is a good topic for critical thinking. It should be moved.
I actually took the time to read all of that. I think that games will continue to be games: a player trying to score as many points in the game as possible. But, in a game such as StepMania, FFR, and other rhythm games, they need music producers and people to step the music. There is no game more unique than rhythm games. I feel like it is in it's own special category, aside from FPS's and MMO's. The ability for someone to create a game such as COD is straightforward. You even get paid for making a game such as COD. But what do step artists/"musicians" get for making their music/step chart? Nothing. They just do it because they want to and to contribute to the community. I know that my explanation might have a lot of holes, but feel free to input your opinion. I'm open. |
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Not sure if that's quite an answer of relevancy, but that's what I perceived that question as. Other than ideas and motivation for real music makers, Stepmania has no benefits in the long-run. It's just a game to other people. |
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I read that, and all I can say is, I feel sorry for you.
It irritates me when people hear "game" and automatically assume "unproductive". In my experiences, people who claim such things are ironically doing even more "unproductive" activities than playing a game. For example, watching a mindless real-life comedy on the television, making sure to keep up with the extended commercials that they've seen countless times. Some of these people even have the commercials memorized and can recite them at any given moment. How can they claim that playing a game is inefficient? Games, activities associated with fun. The more complicated the game, the more you can improve on certain skills and the better you learn about the various aspects related to a game. A game can be a wonderful method for skill development and education, if used correctly. Many people associate games with basic games that have no goals, and can be easily played through without the slightest attempt for improvement. Even then, you can learn these skills I've been talking about, but at a more basic level. Of course staying with these games will eventually plateau your abilities to improve, but we are not talking about playing simple games, are we? Next up, stimulation of the brain. The brain needs activity driven by dynamic thought in order to properly develop. Unlike watching the television, letting the projected images play out everything for you, games force you to think. For example, my grandmother fought off memory deterioration by doing puzzles and word searches. No one can expect her to be able to play StepMania, but those puzzles can be just as stimulating. Finally, enjoyment plays a major role, just like any other form of entertainment. Games can help you moderate your mentality, keeping you in a more desired state of mind. You can get much more out of playing a game than most people realize. A rhythm game like StepMania can introduce you to new styles of music. A role playing game can place you in a new world to explore, giving you a player-driven story. The skills mentioned previously carry over. Let's focus on StepMania in general. Typing is a major part of our world in these modern times. Playing StepMania will, of course, help you improve on that. However, it does much more than that. As you said, timing and hand-eye coordination are also improved. Have you ever considered conditioning as a reason? Doing a physical activity for long periods of time conditions the body to be able to do it more efficiently. You train your nerves to react faster in certain parts of the body. You build much needed muscle. The striking of the bone attracts calcium to the effected area, making it more dense. In short, your hands are much more conditioned for activity than the average person's. Speaking strictly about physical conditioning, activities such as playing the piano would come to you much faster than it would for the normal person. How is that for being "unproductive"? Of course, playing the piano isn't the only activity that conditioning your hands could help you with. Another fine example would be martial arts. You can think of as many more as you like, but I believe you catch my drift. Now, why do I feel sorry for you? Well, I apologize for talking down on your family, but they are expressing their ignorance to great lengths. They will never understand the benefits of playing a game if they continue to correlate video games with people who failed in life. I doubt they'll ever take the time to try and understand your arguments, and it sounds like they instead, listened to you mindlessly as if you were a television. I have to start getting ready for classes, so I don't have time to proof read any of this. I hope this helps out with your fight to justify playing StepMania. Good luck! |
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I've been learning about Structuralism lately, and my thoughts keep returning to Stepmania. What I think merits reference is how similarly structured stepfiles of vastly different songs can be: you're in effect synthesizing an entire spectrum of music to a few recognizable functions. That definitely helps to broaden your perspective beyond just what genres you enjoy. Quote:
All of this is really, really good. |
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Really interesting overall. Never looked at Stepmania in that perspective (just thought that Stepmania is a portal to more music to me before this), but it definitely gave me something to think about rhythm games in general.
Brings to the question though: Quote:
True, rhythm games like Stepmania have the objective of scoring as many points in the game as possible, but even then, it requires accuracy to do. It's similar to trying to perform piano pieces with the score, you still require a sense of rhythm to make sure that the notes/keys you hit are as accurate as possible. It's not like just some random game where you have to mash every key as fast as possible, because that's similar to just smashing every key on the piano, it ends up as a cluster**** and it isn't really all that pleasant to hear. There's speed, but speed requires accuracy as well, otherwise you wouldn't do well on songs you play on Stepmania, similar like you can play the electric guitar at ~250 BPM or so, but if it sounds messy, it wouldn't sound good. Basically from a player's perspective it's comparable to how proficient you are at playing an instrument, imo. From a stepper's perspective (though admittedly I don't step much), like you said, the same song might be portrayed differently by different people with different stepping styles such as Gundam-Dude's IOSYS vocal theory and Kommisar's use of rolls, just like different covers/remixes (with different instruments or programs even) of the same song. Players and simfile artists give their thoughts and opinions about a chart you make, just like how listeners and musicians give their thoughts and opinions about a song you make, and you improve as time goes by. Whether it's a chart or a song. Simfile charts and songs are pretty similar in general, you have to create it, and chances are it will not be exactly the same as what anyone else has made. It's YOUR work, and it's definitely a form of interpretation/expression to others. That's really how I see the relation between Stepmania and music in general, I guess. On another note this is probably the first time I actually wrote this much on the forums lmao. EDIT: As for your family bearing the noise of rhythm gaming, there really isn't much of a choice honestly. They wouldn't experience the same thing as you did, they wouldn't understand why you enjoy playing such a "mindless" game. I've gotten better at playing instruments and understanding music better through rhythm gaming as well, but others might see it as you just getting better as you practice more and more with instruments. If you try to tell them that you got better at music proficiency due to Stepmania and you explain how it did, they might not believe you anyway, and it's just an excuse to play more Stepmania. All in a matter of understanding to me, but in the end, they'll probably see it as just some mindless game that destroys keyboards. |
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Read most of it (heading to class soon) and there's definitely a wall between ignorance and understanding rhythm gaming.
My parents were against FFR/SM before but then I showed the correlation between playing and reading music compared to StepMania/FFR (i.e. reading rhythms, weird patterns, finger strength/flexibility, etc.) and just said "whatever." It is very true that I've gotten better at playing instruments and understanding music better through rhythm gaming. It just seems no matter how you compare games to "more achievable" things in life that people won't understand or try to understand. As dragon said, people will write off games automatically in an ill manner and refuse to settle even if they try. |
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You basically nailed it all.
Though to be fair, I find more enjoyment in making the notecharts than comparing scores with people at this point. The whole "artistic" side of it is what brings me most pleasure. And you're absolutely right; no two people would step a file the same, much like painting on a canvas (although it's a little more likely to be similar). |
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I play the piano, but I don't make money off of it. Although I practice every day, I am still unproductive.
If I was aspiring to make money off of it, then yes: it would be productive. But who is actually aspiring to making money off of playing rhythm games? Living needs money Productivity causes money Parents want you to be able to support yourself Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to spend most of my day watching this anime |
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Really enjoying reading all of this. Some very interesting points being brought up.
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stepmania has made me able to appreciate nearly any piece of music, period. i'm certainly one of the least "music snobby" people i've ever known. this has extended to nearly every aspect of my life. anything that can be interpreted, can be interpreted to be beautiful (or the opposite). i definitely still have my own preferences, but i deeply respect and appreciate other viewpoints.
it's pretty similar with video games, in general. are they a waste of time or not? it could be interpreted either way. |
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It's quite possible to make money off of playing certain games, Stepmania isn't one of them
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The best rhythm games are made by developers who have a good understanding about how rhythm games should behave. You've probably played some bad rhythm games in the past. If not, try Rhythm Zone and tell me if you honestly believe the developers knew what they were doing. A skill that you can't make money off of, that has to be a joke. |
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something i want to add
many of the people i know who are gamers frown upon rhythm games furthermore, many people i know who play rhythm games frown upon stepmania it really does seem like a niche hobby weeaboos probably play more stepmania than your typical gamer |
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People relating productivity directly to monetary gain will find that essentially no human being is always being "productive" in their lives. From this prospective, essentially anything you do outside of working (or striving to obtain work of a higher pay incentive) is absolutely useless to you in terms of survival. With this mindset, TV, hanging out with friends, reading books, exercising, listening to music, or even looking for a spouse and having children are unproductive. In fact, the last two are actually counterproductive to you, because of the significant amount of money you would lose from trying to achieve those goals. We don't necessarily have to consider something productive to be something that gives us money do we? Isn't the emotional satisfaction we obtain from taking part in a hobby a variant of production? If productivity is a ratio of production output to what is required to produce it (inputs), then wouldn't the output of emotional gratification in regards to the physical input actually be, in a sense, physiologically productive? It's not just about surviving, it's also about enjoying the life you are living. If you get emotional gratification from playing StepMania, then it is beyond acceptable to use this practice to make your life more enjoyable. We are not robots, we cannot be expected to be financially productive every hour of our entire lives. Actually in a way, without any sort of emotional gratification in a person's life, it really begs the question as to whether or not they even enjoyed living in the first place. Sure they survived, but did they really live their lives the way they wanted to in the end? Feel free to elaborate on this or ask questions. |
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My opinion in brief is that if you want to learn to be musical, the obvious best way is to structuredly practice that instrument and its theory.
BUT We are human beings, evolved with the psychology and physiology of yesteryear not today's relatively struggle free environment Some of us have always wanted to devote themselves to and practice X - we call this 'talent', but the connotation of being naturally good at it is wrong - a better connotation is 'naturally inclined to practice'. Certainly anyone can become good at any trade, but the less natural practice inclination they have for it the more activation energy is required. So, it is very useful to have trade substitutes or practice substitutes, that grow a similar skillset and are more motivating for you to practice at. While I'd be a better musician right now if in high school I picked up playing an instrument and composing instead of Stepmania, that was never going to happen. I gave up on piano as soon as the second hand came in and never learned chords. I couldn't grok making midis, there wasn't any instrument that inspired me to get good, drums demanded too much co-ordination between all the limbs that I couldn't play anything that interested me. I don't know what originally appealed to me about Stepmania. I do remember how I got into it was a very new friend showing up on AIM with arch0wl's quasar and reality videos - I was immediately hooked by the idea. Maybe it was the idea of how impressively visually and audially overloading it was, maybe it was the idea that anyone could get good at it, I don't know, but it was my big 'thing' to do for many years. In the process I've been exposed to thousands of thousands of songs, stepped hundreds and hundreds analytically and critically, gained hand eye co-ordination, finger-finger co-ordination and rudimentary hand-hand co-ordination. I think honestly the most useful skill it's given me for what I want to get into is such a large body of mentally stored music that I've thought hard about that I can think about tunes and build them via inspiration rather than needing to go to a book and construct them - when I first opened Famitracker I figured out some rudimentary melodies and rhythms without needing to study for hours first. If all of this had not lowered the activation energy of composition enough for that, plus the low activation energy required to compose in Famitracker, I would still be an unmusical bum. |
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The last two posts make me question that I am a human being
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great thread, moches. I read 1/2 of your essay and 1/3 of the long responses. this topic should make (and has already made) for an excellent discussion. |
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Wow, you made a very well-developed and structured essay, good work. I never really realized how much Stepmania/rhythm games correlated to music theory and everything else you mentioned... it really makes you think.
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This is especially relevant with percussion instruments, because things like speed, rhythm and tempo, and different accenting and drum/cymbal usage (for the kit) are essential in order to make a dynamic and creative piece of music. |
Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
Some really great posts from everyone.
Just going to make an assumption that I hadn't really thought of until now. I've noticed that this community is composed of individuals who have a passion for music and also most posters can formulate some critical discussion pieces like this. Whether the average lay-person likes it or not, having a detailed discussion on the intricacies of anime for example is a great learning experience and promotes critical thinking. I've got to say most members in this forum are quite talented/intellectual people! I think it has to do with the fact that we aren't hindered by public scrutiny from our peers for instance and expression of opinion is a safe activity in this environment. Communicating in a forum setting is a great way to improve literacy and communication among many other things. But back to the main point, I do feel that stepmania/rhythm games closely relate to music. I'm a real mathematical person and rhythm/meters/patterns are something I have a lot of interest in. The creative way that step artists capture a song and the way that the stepchart agrees with how I myself perceive the focal points of the composition, give me the profound feeling of actually playing the song. I relate this with dancing for instance, since you are expressing music in a kinesthetic nature. Obviously performing the song on actual instruments is a totally different process, but the set of skills required to follow the music in unique way are valuable ones that are totally unique to rhythm games. I love them!! <3 |
Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
Very interesting thread moches, and very interesting posts everyone made so far.
I'll just leave a note on how I see/deal with things. I am a teacher, the kids ask me on a weekly basis "what are you doing home, what games do you play?" I tell them straight out, that I play a music video game or rather a rythm game (7year olds dont get this so it doesnt matter) My family never really bothered with it though, sure they might think that its wierd that i play it, or that it's useless but they never gave me shit for it. As for the StepMania-Music relation, I feel that there is a huge connection. Much like Dynamo/Patashu said about it, there definately exists one. It literally opened one hell of a path into other music genres, widened my mind into some sort of a highway up onto so much music. The connection between StepMania and instruments, as someone said. It takes skill to perform a concert with any given instrument, and it takes skill in performing any given song on stepmania. In my opinion, the "unproductive" way is very subjective, you could be unproductive whilst playinig any other game but only if other persons think that way and really.. Most of us (if not all) here know that if someone judges you from what game you play, then they are the ones with a problem, not you. Might make 0 sense but at least i gave my 5 cents (lolrhyme) |
Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
Nice post moches. I feel like this is a lingering issue in a lot of people's minds on this site.
I could write a lot about this as some have, but I would rather try to condense it: Many things I'm writing have already been posted. Common elements: - Motivates an interest in music - Can broaden a person's musical palette - Requires practice to better oneself (playing and composing/charting) - Emphasis on rhythms, patterns, even creativity - Charting can help a bit with music notation (maybe?). On the other hand, calling something a 12th note is probably going to earn you some blank stares or a slap in the face. - Certain games carry over skills that apply to real instrumentation. This varies from game to game though; it's been noted drums on GH/RB are pretty helpful to learn drums, but guitar/bass isn't nearly as good a representation. Likewise playing ITG probably isn't going to help your dancing form (maybe your stamina tho !!) - Charts can be 'expressive' if a stepartist tries. Charts can also challenge 'virtuoso' elements from player/ (sup Stai, RG, Sakish, etc.); compositions are also expressive, and many pieces are ornamented/composed with the purpose of virtuoso performance in mind. - Helps mental acquity(?) (hmm maybe I need to source this... lol) Uncommon elements: - Stepmania lacks the degree of tonality/pitch focus that music composition and playing instruments do. You can try to argue that pitch relevancy is used quite often in SM but the tones are shared between columns all the time and require consistent rollover. A4 might equal A3 in stepmania, but no way that's gonna get by in real music practices. - Expression is left to the 'composer'/charter in stepmania; players have limited expressive abilities when actually playing the charts. Still contendable to some degree though, especially some neat freestyle done on DDR/ITG (o: - Stepmania and many other rhythm games tend to layer a bunch of instruments/sounds together. So when a file is played it flows much more like a one-man orchestra than a single instrument, but it probably doesn't really feel like being a concertmaster (well, I wouldn't really know though now would I) - Tapping keys is far less attractive to hear than playing an instrument (of course, there are some exceptions.. hue) So yeah, I think that Stepmania (and other rhythm games) has some musical validity. --- In terms of just being "a game", I think plenty of us have been there and heard that phrase used before. And I'm pretty sure many of us regretted playing a game when we 'weren't supposed to at some point in our lives. Although not everyone agrees (especially all dem opportunity cost *****s out there), I like Russell's statement: "Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time." |
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i think the word you're looking for is "acuity" |
Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
I'm a casual player of ffr, so I learned alot about stepfiles from reading what you put. I agree with all your arguments except this one:
"Miriam: …hmm. Just one question: how do players express themselves through the music? Aren’t they just going for the highest score possible, what the stepartist desires and sees as “ideal”? Moses: You’re confusing want with need: the player doesn’t need to conform to the standards. Both the artist and player interact with the song, the artist by stepping it, and the player by putting his own spin on the chart. You can see this in games like DanceDanceRevolution, where some players prefer to play freestyle, only using the stepchart as a sort of guide to what in the music to follow while including their own dance moves in the blank space. Music isn’t a one-way path but a constant back-and-forth, and everybody who plays rhythm games has a unique take on it." Talking about how DDR applies individual players 'art' is valid if we're talking about DDR. You're not. The last sentence of your paragraph doesn't really make a point pertaining to playing a rhythm game, but of one of listening to music or stepping a file. You say that a player can put their own 'spin to a [stepmania] chart', but don't say how. Do people actually do that when playing a rhythm game using their fingers? The fact that it's a game where there's only 1 way to get points really does railroad players into getting the song 'just right'. There is absolutely no incentivizing creative play, again, outside of creating your own stepfile. FFR for isntance, won't even let you continue playing if you mess up too badly. Seems like the only way for someone to become creative in this process is by either creating the chart or the music. I think you're better off as passing off stepmania as a more of an 'active listening experience' than a creative one. My view is that it doesn't matter if playing it is creative. However, to anyone who actually steps files, playing the game will give you ideas to either follow or purposefully not follow, lets you know how difficult things are, and is a necessary part of stepmania for anyone who takes the route into creating stepfiles. I agree with what everyone else says about games in general. Productivity isn't the end all be all. I'm surprised you don't really get into that debate in your essay. You've dressed up stepmania as something that revolves around music. Which is true of course, but I do think that there's an over-arching idea of the uselessness of games that could be addressed, as it still very much applies to the playing of stepmania. |
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Also it's long past time someone with fMRI access uses an FFR/stepmania interface to learn what we can about things like sightreading, rhythm perception, and learning in the brain. It's the perfect 'musical instrument' to use in a magnet.
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Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
I want to comment on this but typing excessively long posts on my phone sucks Dick
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Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
I think I disagree with virtually all of that post Cavernio.
In the game of FFR the stepchart will scroll down for you (or whichever way you selected in the options menu) and present the arrows for you to hit, but then YOU have to hit them in order to tap along to the song. You are the one creating the taps. So there is some element of creativity, although I think there is a stronger expressive element because rather than 'actively listening' to the songs in FFR I feel as if I'm actually playing them. Almost like sight reading to sheet music on an instrument. Although there is only one stepfile per song and the intention is to tap out the predetermined rhythm for highest possible score, there is more than one way to hit this rhythm. People use different set-ups or make their own for example, such as one handed, index, pettanko and so on. You can hit hard or soft or with different hand formations and techniques. The timing window in the game allows for a bit of leniency and more ways to get past files. A player can sacrifice a bit of accuracy so they can hit certain patterns more easily and still get perfects, for example by jumping trills or jump trilling rolls. So there is more than one way to get the maximum on a a score. People actually study files in order to find new ways to simplify or interpret them, in order to increase their score. You can either hit early or late in the perfect window depending on how you feel, and still get a perfect, or aim to get average the whole way through. There is room for multiple interpretations and players will often have different ways of approaching the same file to each other. When you say that the game absolutely does not incentivise creativity I find that also wrong. To get the highest scores on the hardest files you often do have to be creative and often the best players are the most creative. The best example I can think of was in the race to AAA Crowdpleaser quite a few years ago. You had to somehow combo the 64th note trill and not lose your PA, which seemed like an impossible task back then. I'm not sure how it was done first time round but people came up with quite a few inventive ways of PAing the trill by using double set-up, by vibrating and by jump trilling with both hands on the same set of keys. There was constant one upping and rivalry before someone managed it and that person was rewarded with being the first to AAA. |
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i'd say the most obvious sign of creativity in a player is anti-skill
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It trains your percussion skills... at least before it kills your wrists lol
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I use a very direct explanation when people confront me with similar discussions and questions.
I tell people that art comes in two forms: you're either making something from scratch, or you're making something which is a derivative of another work. For example: if you're writing sheet music, you're making something from scratch. If you're performing someone's music, you're creating something derivative of another's work. If you make a recording of your music and produce it, you're making it from scratch. If someone else dances to this music, that's derivative of your work. Rhythm simulation doesn't create something from scratch. It's similar to dancing in the sense that its purpose is to highlight the music and create something derivative of existing work. Charting has a lot of similarities to music because they share a lot of mechanics. However, I've recently found out that the function of the charts are more likened to dance. When I'm watching a dance I really like, and the dancer executes a really cool move to a part of the music it fits, it gives me an almost identical feeling to when I'm playing a chart that uses a particular technique or pattern at a very fitting point in the music. And that is how I would describe rhythm simulation as an art to other people. |
Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
I kinda miss the days when freestyle DDR was still a thing... there was some really creative stuff back then
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