Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums

Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/index.php)
-   Critical Thinking (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/forumdisplay.php?f=33)
-   -   the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=127237)

moches 11-7-2012 10:12 AM

the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
First of all, this may belong in Critical Thinking, but I wasn't quite sure. It seemed more like something that everybody here could discuss, so I'm putting it here for the time being, but if it's in the wrong place, I would have no issue if a mod just moved it over.

Backstory: in the summer, our Composition class was assigned to write a dialogue about a philosophical question ala Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Naturally, I decided to write about Stepmania because that's how I roll. I had also been thinking about the game recently, mostly because of how much my family disapproved of it.

I shared the essay with a couple of people, and all had some very interesting things to say, so I was wondering what you guys would all think.

Be warned, it is corny because it's written from my perspective, but oh well.

Quote:

(Loud tapping is heard from the inner room. Family members shake their heads in disgust.)

Miriam: I can’t hear myself think over this racket!

Mom: He’s been playing that for an HOUR now! I’ve had enough. MOSES!

Moses: (takes off earphones) I’m sorry, did you just call me?

Mom: What is that ridiculous arrow game you’ve been playing? I thought I told you in elementary school to stop playing it, and now it’s been eight years. You have nothing to gain from tapping keys to anime music, and the sound is driving us crazy. Just stop!

Moses: Nothing to gain? You do realize I’ve been playing it for a reason, right? Stepmania—not “arrow game”—is basically an instrument to me at this point.

Mom: An instrument? You’re high right now, aren’t you? It’s a game, Moses, not an experience! How can a rhythm game possibly be anything close to an instrument?

Moses: Well, I’ll answer that, but I still see this as something that needs to be nurtured, not dismissed. Here, I’ll sit down and explain it right now.

You guys have always said that Stepmania is a waste of my time—

Miriam, Mom: IT IS!

Moses: Maybe I should just skip the introduction. The thing is, you guys see it as a waste of my time, but I still invested time into it. The reason I kept playing is that I wanted to learn how to play well, and there are skills you need: you have to develop hand-eye coordination, learn to read predefined charts of notes that reflect the music (these are referred to as “stepcharts”), and time everything as the chart demands. Sounds similar to learning to play an instrument to me.

Miriam: But you don’t see people playing the computer keyboard in concert halls.

Moses: True, but just because it doesn’t produce sound doesn’t mean that it doesn’t require skills. And furthermore, simulation is getting much better with time: djMAX, for example, plays songs differently depending on how you time them, so that perfect timing plays the best possible version of a song while sloppy playing will make it a mess. Whether you’re playing an instrument or a game, there’s a clear difference in outcome dependent on skill. You can play an instrument well. You can play a game well. And in both situations, playing well means playing music well.

Mom: But that doesn’t apply to all games! Stepmania is just four keys. It’s not reflective of any one instrument in general.

Moses: Fair enough; maybe I shouldn’t have generalized. But if that’s the case, then let’s look at both types of rhythm games.

Some rhythm games are designed to recreate the experience of playing a specific instrument, like Guitar Hero. Even if they’re not perfect representations of their respective instruments, they do share the fundamental characteristics of an instrument: they utilize learned skills and the application of those skills produces sound which may or may not be good. If your concern is about accurate simulation, than these games are clearly adequate.

Other rhythm games, like Stepmania, don’t reflect any one instrument but instead center on an abstract format (Stepmania only has four columns on which notes scroll up). In these games, the similarities to an instrument are limited strictly to skill, but the process of playing can still accurately reflect a song; in fact, it can even be more effective in doing so than instrument-simulation based rhythm games. This has to do with the second characteristic rhythm games share with instruments: self-expression.

Miriam: Self-expression? Okay, I’ve seen you playing Stepmania before, and unless you think headbanging qualifies as self-expression, I don’t see what your point is.

Moses: Miriam, you play the clarinet, right?

Miriam: Duh.

Moses: And you’ve performed solos, haven’t you?

Miriam: You’ve seen them, right?

Moses: And you’ve also written music in those music theory classes you took in high school?

Miriam: Yes. This isn’t about me, though. What does this have to do with your game obsession?

Moses: I have done all of those things. I’ve played solos before. I’ve even written what rhythm gamers would consider to be their sheet music by writing my own stepcharts. The thing is, a song in a rhythm game is nothing without a good stepchart that emphasizes specific aspects of the song that should be emphasized.

Miriam: But how do you play solos? These charts are still made for people to hit as accurately as possible for the highest score. There’s no self-expression in that.

Moses: But who says there can’t be? Do the great clarinet players, the great musicians, stick to every note in their sheet music? Or do they interpret it as a scholar interprets a text, finding themselves with the chart only serving as a guideline? Anyone can splash colors onto a canvas and call it a painting; it takes an artist to infuse the colors with a sense of meaning. The same goes for stepcharting: do you want a crash course on how our philosophy works as sheet music?

Mom: Enlighten me.

Moses: I’m only well-versed in Stepmania, but even that one game has a myriad of subtext beneath each note. Consider, first of all, the freeze note, a special sustained note that must be held in order to score. The traditional use was to use them to emphasize melody, but over time, a novel use of the freeze developed.

You see, nowadays, many freezes aren’t even long enough to hold. These notes are called minifreezes. You can use them to emphasize percussion, background vocals or synths, and even to highlight a melody. Speaking of melody, one of the theories that developed over the years is designed to highlight just that: we refer to it as pitch relevancy, which is the idea that lower pitches go on the left and higher pitches go on the right.

In sheet music, we emphasize notes with special marks that indicate dynamics or textures (such as staccato or legato). Stepmania doesn’t have marks for forte or piano, but it does have a variety of other techniques that can be used to achieve similar effects. Layering notes to be less dense in softer parts and more dense in louder parts uses intensity as a dynamic mark. Mines, which are notes that explode if you hit them and must therefore be avoided, can be placed directly after particularly strong notes to have a staccato effect. And one theory that has developed very recently is color theory, which is used by offsetting the BPM (beats per minute) of the file so that all the notes of one instrument or voice shift to a particular color. This can either be used in lieu of minifreezes to bring out specific melodies or motifs or as a sort of antiphonal technique, where the file may shift between two different colors.

Note that these theories only carry subtext because somebody had the idea in the first place: like music theory has gradually become more complex with time, Stepmania has also adapted to become a better fit for the music.

Mom: That’s all interesting, but how is that self-expression? Aren’t you just trying to cram everything you can into the chart?

Moses: Not necessarily! The idea behind stepcharting theory is not capturing everything but capturing what’s most important so that playing the file perfectly is going to yield the ideal version of the song on which it was modeled. Where self-expression comes in is the subjectivity of what that ideal is: you can see dozens of YouTube covers of one song and each has its own voice, its own rhythms. The same applies to stepcharting. Therefore, the art is almost metacontextual: it is not only sheet music for a game but also a betrayal of one’s own interpretation of the music itself.

Miriam: …hmm. Just one question: how do players express themselves through the music? Aren’t they just going for the highest score possible, what the stepartist desires and sees as “ideal”?

Moses: You’re confusing want with need: the player doesn’t need to conform to the standards. Both the artist and player interact with the song, the artist by stepping it, and the player by putting his own spin on the chart. You can see this in games like DanceDanceRevolution, where some players prefer to play freestyle, only using the stepchart as a sort of guide to what in the music to follow while including their own dance moves in the blank space. Music isn’t a one-way path but a constant back-and-forth, and everybody who plays rhythm games has a unique take on it.

Mom: It just seems so unproductive, though. You really have to do this through a game?

Moses: Well, why can’t I? Not everybody is a musical prodigy. Not everybody weeps at the sound of a violin. Sometimes we find beauty in the smaller things, like a free-source rhythm game based on DDR that is actively played by maybe a hundred thousand people out of seven billion. It has nothing to do with what’s traditionally acceptable or even “efficient”: I find it to be exhilarating. You guys just need to open your minds to what the people around you see.

Mom: You’re doing this out of a love for music, is that what you’re saying?

Moses: Absolutely.

Mom: Then why don’t you join a musical community? A game, while useful in a limited context, simply doesn’t seem like a replacement for real experiences.

Moses: But I do have real experiences! Mom, communities can form around anything: our hobbies, our passions, even our inability to poop (if you Google that, people will probably tell you that you have butt cancer). I’d even argue that Stepmania, along with certain other rhythm games, is a better fit for a musical aficionado than a traditional musical community precisely because of its limited application.

Think of it this way. A song is never just one instrument. It’s drums, bass, guitar, clarinet, violin, digeridoo. You can play one instrument, and you will receive recognition and develop an appreciation for the music you experience. But isn’t it only for that instrument? Do you develop the same love for the drums? The violin? The digeridoo? What if all you play is classical music, and you despise every other genre of music as low-brow pop fluff?

Stepmania is different because it forces you to interact not with any one instrument but with the song as a whole. The various techniques found in stepcharts condense radically different styles of music into a couple of easily recognizable and universal forms. Jazz and rock may attract completely different crowds, but in Stepmania their charts may look eerily similar. By limiting the application of any individual instrument, it expands its focus to everything, so that players can develop a love for MUSIC as a whole.

And of course, that love for music can be built upon with a community. Differences in opinion incite discussion, and criticism will arise, as it will in any creation process. People on both sides of the gaming spectrum—the creators and the players—learn how to best express themselves, and because the creation of stepcharts is in this way a collaborative process, the sharing of diverse ideas and opinions on music occurs naturally. By beginning with a universally relatable expression of music in the form of a game, Stepmania has actually built one of the most engaging musical communities online.

Miriam: You’re getting all of this from a game? I just don’t see how you see it as such a deep experience. It’s just a game.

Moses: Maybe this refusal to acknowledge the good games can do comes from the struggle each of us faces to make a unique streak on the face of humanity. We want to be independent, useful, creative, original, and above all, smart. But in my eight years of playing this game, what I’ve learned is that you never set yourself on that path alone but begin where everybody else starts. And in that way, Stepmania has been useful to me: it has taught me to value the thoughts of others. It has taught me to see new uses for old things. And most importantly, it has taught me the importance of the people around you. You can learn a lot more from them than they can from you.

So maybe I could have used that time to practice the drums, or become a clarinet master, or conquer Finland. But I didn’t—and though I doubt many will admit it, people like me who stayed to play a silly game for eight years ended up learning plenty in that time. Maybe we just need to get past our fear of being useless or stupid. Maybe there’s a lot to learn from the games we play if we stop seeing them as things to be scored on and start seeing them like we would any other activity: as subjective, personal experiences that can hold meaning for everybody.

Miriam: Okay, okay, okay. I don’t know why you’re inflicting this on us. I don’t care if you’re useless and stupid…just please be useless and stupid somewhere else. I have an essay to write and your tapping is driving me nuts.

Moses: Heh. Funny you should mention that.

Mom: Room, Moses.


Is there really validity to the comparison between Stepmania and real musicians/real music? What do you guys think?

Riotpolice 11-7-2012 10:44 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
This really is a good topic for critical thinking. It should be moved.

I actually took the time to read all of that. I think that games will continue to be games: a player trying to score as many points in the game as possible. But, in a game such as StepMania, FFR, and other rhythm games, they need music producers and people to step the music. There is no game more unique than rhythm games. I feel like it is in it's own special category, aside from FPS's and MMO's. The ability for someone to create a game such as COD is straightforward. You even get paid for making a game such as COD. But what do step artists/"musicians" get for making their music/step chart? Nothing. They just do it because they want to and to contribute to the community. I know that my explanation might have a lot of holes, but feel free to input your opinion. I'm open.

.Sapphire 11-7-2012 10:47 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by moches (Post 3799265)
Is there really validity to the comparison between Stepmania and real musicians/real music? What do you guys think?

Well, it sure as hell opens your music palette to not just be one genre of your surrounding malls and whatever is sold in stores locally. Stepmania has charts for tens of thousands of charts for many different genre songs. That kind of diversity gives motivation, ideas and inspiration to make music with related melodies and the sort. It really helps when a music producer/instrument player can't think of something new, so they just hop onto Stepmania and listen/play a bunch of songs and see if there's motivation after that. Other than that, I'd find it just a great way to hear a lot of different songs you wouldn't normally hear.

Not sure if that's quite an answer of relevancy, but that's what I perceived that question as.

Other than ideas and motivation for real music makers, Stepmania has no benefits in the long-run. It's just a game to other people.

dragon890x 11-7-2012 10:48 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
I read that, and all I can say is, I feel sorry for you.

It irritates me when people hear "game" and automatically assume "unproductive". In my experiences, people who claim such things are ironically doing even more "unproductive" activities than playing a game. For example, watching a mindless real-life comedy on the television, making sure to keep up with the extended commercials that they've seen countless times. Some of these people even have the commercials memorized and can recite them at any given moment. How can they claim that playing a game is inefficient?

Games, activities associated with fun. The more complicated the game, the more you can improve on certain skills and the better you learn about the various aspects related to a game. A game can be a wonderful method for skill development and education, if used correctly.

Many people associate games with basic games that have no goals, and can be easily played through without the slightest attempt for improvement. Even then, you can learn these skills I've been talking about, but at a more basic level. Of course staying with these games will eventually plateau your abilities to improve, but we are not talking about playing simple games, are we?

Next up, stimulation of the brain. The brain needs activity driven by dynamic thought in order to properly develop. Unlike watching the television, letting the projected images play out everything for you, games force you to think. For example, my grandmother fought off memory deterioration by doing puzzles and word searches. No one can expect her to be able to play StepMania, but those puzzles can be just as stimulating.

Finally, enjoyment plays a major role, just like any other form of entertainment. Games can help you moderate your mentality, keeping you in a more desired state of mind. You can get much more out of playing a game than most people realize. A rhythm game like StepMania can introduce you to new styles of music. A role playing game can place you in a new world to explore, giving you a player-driven story.

The skills mentioned previously carry over. Let's focus on StepMania in general. Typing is a major part of our world in these modern times. Playing StepMania will, of course, help you improve on that. However, it does much more than that. As you said, timing and hand-eye coordination are also improved.

Have you ever considered conditioning as a reason?

Doing a physical activity for long periods of time conditions the body to be able to do it more efficiently. You train your nerves to react faster in certain parts of the body. You build much needed muscle. The striking of the bone attracts calcium to the effected area, making it more dense. In short, your hands are much more conditioned for activity than the average person's.

Speaking strictly about physical conditioning, activities such as playing the piano would come to you much faster than it would for the normal person. How is that for being "unproductive"? Of course, playing the piano isn't the only activity that conditioning your hands could help you with. Another fine example would be martial arts. You can think of as many more as you like, but I believe you catch my drift.

Now, why do I feel sorry for you?

Well, I apologize for talking down on your family, but they are expressing their ignorance to great lengths. They will never understand the benefits of playing a game if they continue to correlate video games with people who failed in life. I doubt they'll ever take the time to try and understand your arguments, and it sounds like they instead, listened to you mindlessly as if you were a television.

I have to start getting ready for classes, so I don't have time to proof read any of this. I hope this helps out with your fight to justify playing StepMania.

Good luck!

moches 11-7-2012 11:15 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotpolice (Post 3799274)
There is no game more unique than rhythm games. I feel like it is in it's own special category, aside from FPS's and MMO's. The ability for someone to create a game such as COD is straightforward. You even get paid for making a game such as COD. But what do step artists/"musicians" get for making their music/step chart? Nothing. They just do it because they want to and to contribute to the community. I know that my explanation might have a lot of holes, but feel free to input your opinion. I'm open.

That is a very good point: rhythm games seem, almost more than any other genre, motivated by self-expression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .Sapphire (Post 3799275)
Well, it sure as hell opens your music palette to not just be one genre of your surrounding malls and whatever is sold in stores locally. Stepmania has charts for tens of thousands of charts for many different genre songs. That kind of diversity gives motivation, ideas and inspiration to make music with related melodies and the sort. It really helps when a music producer/instrument player can't think of something new, so they just hop onto Stepmania and listen/play a bunch of songs and see if there's motivation after that. Other than that, I'd find it just a great way to hear a lot of different songs you wouldn't normally hear.

Not sure if that's quite an answer of relevancy, but that's what I perceived that question as.

Other than ideas and motivation for real music makers, Stepmania has no benefits in the long-run. It's just a game to other people.

Music producer TJ DeJong in the house! :D

I've been learning about Structuralism lately, and my thoughts keep returning to Stepmania. What I think merits reference is how similarly structured stepfiles of vastly different songs can be: you're in effect synthesizing an entire spectrum of music to a few recognizable functions. That definitely helps to broaden your perspective beyond just what genres you enjoy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon890x (Post 3799276)
very long post

Hehe, no need to feel sorry for me. My family is awesome about some things, ignorant about other things.

All of this is really, really good.

EzExZeRo7497 11-7-2012 11:30 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Really interesting overall. Never looked at Stepmania in that perspective (just thought that Stepmania is a portal to more music to me before this), but it definitely gave me something to think about rhythm games in general.

Brings to the question though:
Quote:

Originally Posted by moches (Post 3799265)
Is there really validity to the comparison between Stepmania and real musicians/real music? What do you guys think?

Yes, I feel that the comparison between Stepmania and real musicians/real music is valid.

True, rhythm games like Stepmania have the objective of scoring as many points in the game as possible, but even then, it requires accuracy to do. It's similar to trying to perform piano pieces with the score, you still require a sense of rhythm to make sure that the notes/keys you hit are as accurate as possible.

It's not like just some random game where you have to mash every key as fast as possible, because that's similar to just smashing every key on the piano, it ends up as a cluster**** and it isn't really all that pleasant to hear. There's speed, but speed requires accuracy as well, otherwise you wouldn't do well on songs you play on Stepmania, similar like you can play the electric guitar at ~250 BPM or so, but if it sounds messy, it wouldn't sound good.

Basically from a player's perspective it's comparable to how proficient you are at playing an instrument, imo.

From a stepper's perspective (though admittedly I don't step much), like you said, the same song might be portrayed differently by different people with different stepping styles such as Gundam-Dude's IOSYS vocal theory and Kommisar's use of rolls, just like different covers/remixes (with different instruments or programs even) of the same song. Players and simfile artists give their thoughts and opinions about a chart you make, just like how listeners and musicians give their thoughts and opinions about a song you make, and you improve as time goes by. Whether it's a chart or a song.

Simfile charts and songs are pretty similar in general, you have to create it, and chances are it will not be exactly the same as what anyone else has made. It's YOUR work, and it's definitely a form of interpretation/expression to others.

That's really how I see the relation between Stepmania and music in general, I guess.

On another note this is probably the first time I actually wrote this much on the forums lmao.

EDIT: As for your family bearing the noise of rhythm gaming, there really isn't much of a choice honestly. They wouldn't experience the same thing as you did, they wouldn't understand why you enjoy playing such a "mindless" game. I've gotten better at playing instruments and understanding music better through rhythm gaming as well, but others might see it as you just getting better as you practice more and more with instruments. If you try to tell them that you got better at music proficiency due to Stepmania and you explain how it did, they might not believe you anyway, and it's just an excuse to play more Stepmania. All in a matter of understanding to me, but in the end, they'll probably see it as just some mindless game that destroys keyboards.

~Zeta~ 11-7-2012 11:31 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Read most of it (heading to class soon) and there's definitely a wall between ignorance and understanding rhythm gaming.

My parents were against FFR/SM before but then I showed the correlation between playing and reading music compared to StepMania/FFR (i.e. reading rhythms, weird patterns, finger strength/flexibility, etc.) and just said "whatever." It is very true that I've gotten better at playing instruments and understanding music better through rhythm gaming.

It just seems no matter how you compare games to "more achievable" things in life that people won't understand or try to understand. As dragon said, people will write off games automatically in an ill manner and refuse to settle even if they try.

kommisar 11-7-2012 11:35 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
You basically nailed it all.

Though to be fair, I find more enjoyment in making the notecharts than comparing scores with people at this point. The whole "artistic" side of it is what brings me most pleasure. And you're absolutely right; no two people would step a file the same, much like painting on a canvas (although it's a little more likely to be similar).

SKG_Scintill 11-7-2012 11:50 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
I play the piano, but I don't make money off of it. Although I practice every day, I am still unproductive.
If I was aspiring to make money off of it, then yes: it would be productive. But who is actually aspiring to making money off of playing rhythm games?

Living needs money
Productivity causes money
Parents want you to be able to support yourself

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to spend most of my day watching this anime

moches 11-7-2012 12:09 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Really enjoying reading all of this. Some very interesting points being brought up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill (Post 3799291)
I play the piano, but I don't make money off of it. Although I practice every day, I am still unproductive.
If I was aspiring to make money off of it, then yes: it would be productive. But who is actually aspiring to making money off of playing rhythm games?

Living needs money
Productivity causes money
Parents want you to be able to support yourself

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to spend most of my day watching this anime

True but unfortunate. I don't see money as being the end of everything, but ~it makes the world go round~, and let's be honest, a crapload of our decisions are based not on any actual desire for self-fulfillment or enlightenment but on how much it'll help us earn dat $$$ in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kommisar (Post 3799284)
You basically nailed it all.

Though to be fair, I find more enjoyment in making the notecharts than comparing scores with people at this point. The whole "artistic" side of it is what brings me most pleasure. And you're absolutely right; no two people would step a file the same, much like painting on a canvas (although it's a little more likely to be similar).

Same here, haha. I just don't care about scoring at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Zeta~ (Post 3799283)
Read most of it (heading to class soon) and there's definitely a wall between ignorance and understanding rhythm gaming.

My parents were against FFR/SM before but then I showed the correlation between playing and reading music compared to StepMania/FFR (i.e. reading rhythms, weird patterns, finger strength/flexibility, etc.) and just said "whatever." It is very true that I've gotten better at playing instruments and understanding music better through rhythm gaming.

It just seems no matter how you compare games to "more achievable" things in life that people won't understand or try to understand. As dragon said, people will write off games automatically in an ill manner and refuse to settle even if they try.

It's mostly just the (unwarranted) assumption that games have no intrinsic value other than entertainment, even when other forms of entertainment (film/literature/music) are dissected over and over again. Then again, they are a relatively new art form, so maybe this issue will resolve itself with history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EzExZeRo7497 (Post 3799281)
long post

Good post.

Emanresu13 11-7-2012 02:09 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
stepmania has made me able to appreciate nearly any piece of music, period. i'm certainly one of the least "music snobby" people i've ever known. this has extended to nearly every aspect of my life. anything that can be interpreted, can be interpreted to be beautiful (or the opposite). i definitely still have my own preferences, but i deeply respect and appreciate other viewpoints.

it's pretty similar with video games, in general. are they a waste of time or not? it could be interpreted either way.

SKG_Scintill 11-7-2012 02:15 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
It's quite possible to make money off of playing certain games, Stepmania isn't one of them

dragon890x 11-7-2012 02:21 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill (Post 3799330)
It's quite possible to make money off of playing certain games, Stepmania isn't one of them

Are you trying to say that those who developed rhythm games, inspired by ones such as StepMania, made no money?

The best rhythm games are made by developers who have a good understanding about how rhythm games should behave. You've probably played some bad rhythm games in the past. If not, try Rhythm Zone and tell me if you honestly believe the developers knew what they were doing.

A skill that you can't make money off of, that has to be a joke.

Emanresu13 11-7-2012 02:45 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
something i want to add

many of the people i know who are gamers frown upon rhythm games

furthermore, many people i know who play rhythm games frown upon stepmania

it really does seem like a niche hobby

weeaboos probably play more stepmania than your typical gamer

foxfire667 11-7-2012 04:18 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill (Post 3799291)
Living needs money
Productivity causes money
Parents want you to be able to support yourself

Remember that human beings are not satisfied merely by surviving. There are plenty of things that we as a species do that serve rather questionable levels of productivity or necessity. These are things that are known as interests or hobbies.

People relating productivity directly to monetary gain will find that essentially no human being is always being "productive" in their lives. From this prospective, essentially anything you do outside of working (or striving to obtain work of a higher pay incentive) is absolutely useless to you in terms of survival. With this mindset, TV, hanging out with friends, reading books, exercising, listening to music, or even looking for a spouse and having children are unproductive. In fact, the last two are actually counterproductive to you, because of the significant amount of money you would lose from trying to achieve those goals.

We don't necessarily have to consider something productive to be something that gives us money do we? Isn't the emotional satisfaction we obtain from taking part in a hobby a variant of production? If productivity is a ratio of production output to what is required to produce it (inputs), then wouldn't the output of emotional gratification in regards to the physical input actually be, in a sense, physiologically productive?

It's not just about surviving, it's also about enjoying the life you are living. If you get emotional gratification from playing StepMania, then it is beyond acceptable to use this practice to make your life more enjoyable. We are not robots, we cannot be expected to be financially productive every hour of our entire lives. Actually in a way, without any sort of emotional gratification in a person's life, it really begs the question as to whether or not they even enjoyed living in the first place. Sure they survived, but did they really live their lives the way they wanted to in the end?

Feel free to elaborate on this or ask questions.

Patashu 11-7-2012 04:46 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
My opinion in brief is that if you want to learn to be musical, the obvious best way is to structuredly practice that instrument and its theory.

BUT

We are human beings, evolved with the psychology and physiology of yesteryear not today's relatively struggle free environment Some of us have always wanted to devote themselves to and practice X - we call this 'talent', but the connotation of being naturally good at it is wrong - a better connotation is 'naturally inclined to practice'. Certainly anyone can become good at any trade, but the less natural practice inclination they have for it the more activation energy is required. So, it is very useful to have trade substitutes or practice substitutes, that grow a similar skillset and are more motivating for you to practice at.

While I'd be a better musician right now if in high school I picked up playing an instrument and composing instead of Stepmania, that was never going to happen. I gave up on piano as soon as the second hand came in and never learned chords. I couldn't grok making midis, there wasn't any instrument that inspired me to get good, drums demanded too much co-ordination between all the limbs that I couldn't play anything that interested me.

I don't know what originally appealed to me about Stepmania. I do remember how I got into it was a very new friend showing up on AIM with arch0wl's quasar and reality videos - I was immediately hooked by the idea. Maybe it was the idea of how impressively visually and audially overloading it was, maybe it was the idea that anyone could get good at it, I don't know, but it was my big 'thing' to do for many years. In the process I've been exposed to thousands of thousands of songs, stepped hundreds and hundreds analytically and critically, gained hand eye co-ordination, finger-finger co-ordination and rudimentary hand-hand co-ordination. I think honestly the most useful skill it's given me for what I want to get into is such a large body of mentally stored music that I've thought hard about that I can think about tunes and build them via inspiration rather than needing to go to a book and construct them - when I first opened Famitracker I figured out some rudimentary melodies and rhythms without needing to study for hours first. If all of this had not lowered the activation energy of composition enough for that, plus the low activation energy required to compose in Famitracker, I would still be an unmusical bum.

SKG_Scintill 11-7-2012 05:34 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
The last two posts make me question that I am a human being

Patashu 11-7-2012 05:39 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill (Post 3799415)
The last two posts make me question that I am a human being

Can you elaborate?

dAnceguy117 11-7-2012 06:29 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kommisar (Post 3799284)
You basically nailed it all.

Though to be fair, I find more enjoyment in making the notecharts than comparing scores with people at this point. The whole "artistic" side of it is what brings me most pleasure. And you're absolutely right; no two people would step a file the same, much like painting on a canvas (although it's a little more likely to be similar).

100% agreed

great thread, moches. I read 1/2 of your essay and 1/3 of the long responses. this topic should make (and has already made) for an excellent discussion.

Netjet! 11-7-2012 06:49 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Wow, you made a very well-developed and structured essay, good work. I never really realized how much Stepmania/rhythm games correlated to music theory and everything else you mentioned... it really makes you think.

Quote:

Is there really validity to the comparison between Stepmania and real musicians/real music? What do you guys think?
Absolutely. I've been playing FFR and Stepmania on and off for about five years, and it has certainly helped to develop my skills musically. I started playing the drums a few years ago, and rhythm games such as FFR/SM helped me realize how you have to learn to flow with the music, and find ways to incorporate your own personal touch into it, not unlike the artists' canvas like you referenced.

This is especially relevant with percussion instruments, because things like speed, rhythm and tempo, and different accenting and drum/cymbal usage (for the kit) are essential in order to make a dynamic and creative piece of music.

Dynam0 11-7-2012 07:33 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Some really great posts from everyone.

Just going to make an assumption that I hadn't really thought of until now. I've noticed that this community is composed of individuals who have a passion for music and also most posters can formulate some critical discussion pieces like this. Whether the average lay-person likes it or not, having a detailed discussion on the intricacies of anime for example is a great learning experience and promotes critical thinking.

I've got to say most members in this forum are quite talented/intellectual people! I think it has to do with the fact that we aren't hindered by public scrutiny from our peers for instance and expression of opinion is a safe activity in this environment. Communicating in a forum setting is a great way to improve literacy and communication among many other things.

But back to the main point, I do feel that stepmania/rhythm games closely relate to music. I'm a real mathematical person and rhythm/meters/patterns are something I have a lot of interest in. The creative way that step artists capture a song and the way that the stepchart agrees with how I myself perceive the focal points of the composition, give me the profound feeling of actually playing the song. I relate this with dancing for instance, since you are expressing music in a kinesthetic nature.

Obviously performing the song on actual instruments is a totally different process, but the set of skills required to follow the music in unique way are valuable ones that are totally unique to rhythm games. I love them!! <3

Sakish 11-7-2012 09:13 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Very interesting thread moches, and very interesting posts everyone made so far.

I'll just leave a note on how I see/deal with things.

I am a teacher, the kids ask me on a weekly basis "what are you doing home, what games do you play?"
I tell them straight out, that I play a music video game or rather a rythm game (7year olds dont get this so it doesnt matter)
My family never really bothered with it though, sure they might think that its wierd that i play it, or that it's useless but they never gave me shit for it.

As for the StepMania-Music relation, I feel that there is a huge connection.
Much like Dynamo/Patashu said about it, there definately exists one. It literally opened one hell of a path into other music genres, widened my mind into some sort of a highway up onto so much music.
The connection between StepMania and instruments, as someone said. It takes skill to perform a concert with any given instrument, and it takes skill in performing any given song on stepmania. In my opinion, the "unproductive" way is very subjective, you could be unproductive whilst playinig any other game but only if other persons think that way and really.. Most of us (if not all) here know that if someone judges you from what game you play, then they are the ones with a problem, not you.

Might make 0 sense but at least i gave my 5 cents (lolrhyme)

swordmasterz 11-7-2012 10:00 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Nice post moches. I feel like this is a lingering issue in a lot of people's minds on this site.
I could write a lot about this as some have, but I would rather try to condense it:

Many things I'm writing have already been posted.

Common elements:
- Motivates an interest in music

- Can broaden a person's musical palette

- Requires practice to better oneself (playing and composing/charting)

- Emphasis on rhythms, patterns, even creativity

- Charting can help a bit with music notation (maybe?). On the other hand, calling something a 12th note is probably going to earn you some blank stares or a slap in the face.

- Certain games carry over skills that apply to real instrumentation. This varies from game to game though; it's been noted drums on GH/RB are pretty helpful to learn drums, but guitar/bass isn't nearly as good a representation. Likewise playing ITG probably isn't going to help your dancing form (maybe your stamina tho !!)

- Charts can be 'expressive' if a stepartist tries. Charts can also challenge 'virtuoso' elements from player/ (sup Stai, RG, Sakish, etc.); compositions are also expressive, and many pieces are ornamented/composed with the purpose of virtuoso performance in mind.

- Helps mental acquity(?) (hmm maybe I need to source this... lol)


Uncommon elements:
- Stepmania lacks the degree of tonality/pitch focus that music composition and playing instruments do. You can try to argue that pitch relevancy is used quite often in SM but the tones are shared between columns all the time and require consistent rollover. A4 might equal A3 in stepmania, but no way that's gonna get by in real music practices.

- Expression is left to the 'composer'/charter in stepmania; players have limited expressive abilities when actually playing the charts. Still contendable to some degree though, especially some neat freestyle done on DDR/ITG (o:

- Stepmania and many other rhythm games tend to layer a bunch of instruments/sounds together. So when a file is played it flows much more like a one-man orchestra than a single instrument, but it probably doesn't really feel like being a concertmaster (well, I wouldn't really know though now would I)

- Tapping keys is far less attractive to hear than playing an instrument (of course, there are some exceptions.. hue)

So yeah, I think that Stepmania (and other rhythm games) has some musical validity.

---

In terms of just being "a game", I think plenty of us have been there and heard that phrase used before. And I'm pretty sure many of us regretted playing a game when we 'weren't supposed to at some point in our lives. Although not everyone agrees (especially all dem opportunity cost *****s out there), I like Russell's statement:

"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."

inDheart 11-7-2012 10:20 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swordmasterz (Post 3799551)
- Charting can help a bit with music notation (maybe?). On the other hand, calling something a 12th note is probably going to earn you some blank stares or a slap in the face.

- Helps mental acquity(?) (hmm maybe I need to source this... lol)

actually, music notation might help with charting more. imagine never having seen a piece of sheet music, but trying to use it as a reference to step a piano song - it's a whole new set of symbols to learn. but the principles carry over.

i think the word you're looking for is "acuity"

Cavernio 11-9-2012 10:27 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
I'm a casual player of ffr, so I learned alot about stepfiles from reading what you put. I agree with all your arguments except this one:

"Miriam: …hmm. Just one question: how do players express themselves through the music? Aren’t they just going for the highest score possible, what the stepartist desires and sees as “ideal”?

Moses: You’re confusing want with need: the player doesn’t need to conform to the standards. Both the artist and player interact with the song, the artist by stepping it, and the player by putting his own spin on the chart. You can see this in games like DanceDanceRevolution, where some players prefer to play freestyle, only using the stepchart as a sort of guide to what in the music to follow while including their own dance moves in the blank space. Music isn’t a one-way path but a constant back-and-forth, and everybody who plays rhythm games has a unique take on it."

Talking about how DDR applies individual players 'art' is valid if we're talking about DDR. You're not. The last sentence of your paragraph doesn't really make a point pertaining to playing a rhythm game, but of one of listening to music or stepping a file. You say that a player can put their own 'spin to a [stepmania] chart', but don't say how. Do people actually do that when playing a rhythm game using their fingers? The fact that it's a game where there's only 1 way to get points really does railroad players into getting the song 'just right'. There is absolutely no incentivizing creative play, again, outside of creating your own stepfile. FFR for isntance, won't even let you continue playing if you mess up too badly. Seems like the only way for someone to become creative in this process is by either creating the chart or the music.
I think you're better off as passing off stepmania as a more of an 'active listening experience' than a creative one. My view is that it doesn't matter if playing it is creative. However, to anyone who actually steps files, playing the game will give you ideas to either follow or purposefully not follow, lets you know how difficult things are, and is a necessary part of stepmania for anyone who takes the route into creating stepfiles.

I agree with what everyone else says about games in general. Productivity isn't the end all be all. I'm surprised you don't really get into that debate in your essay. You've dressed up stepmania as something that revolves around music. Which is true of course, but I do think that there's an over-arching idea of the uselessness of games that could be addressed, as it still very much applies to the playing of stepmania.

Cavernio 11-9-2012 10:34 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Also it's long past time someone with fMRI access uses an FFR/stepmania interface to learn what we can about things like sightreading, rhythm perception, and learning in the brain. It's the perfect 'musical instrument' to use in a magnet.

Wayward Vagabond 11-9-2012 10:59 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
I want to comment on this but typing excessively long posts on my phone sucks Dick

Dynam0 11-9-2012 12:11 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3800155)
Also it's long past time someone with fMRI access uses an FFR/stepmania interface to learn what we can about things like sightreading, rhythm perception, and learning in the brain. It's the perfect 'musical instrument' to use in a magnet.

I've been curious about this as well. What kind of processes occur in the brain while playing something for the first time as opposed to the 50th time for instance. Lots of neat stuff especially in pattern recognition and reaction time in that field :p

retching oesophagus 11-9-2012 03:09 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
I think I disagree with virtually all of that post Cavernio.

In the game of FFR the stepchart will scroll down for you (or whichever way you selected in the options menu) and present the arrows for you to hit, but then YOU have to hit them in order to tap along to the song. You are the one creating the taps. So there is some element of creativity, although I think there is a stronger expressive element because rather than 'actively listening' to the songs in FFR I feel as if I'm actually playing them. Almost like sight reading to sheet music on an instrument.

Although there is only one stepfile per song and the intention is to tap out the predetermined rhythm for highest possible score, there is more than one way to hit this rhythm. People use different set-ups or make their own for example, such as one handed, index, pettanko and so on. You can hit hard or soft or with different hand formations and techniques. The timing window in the game allows for a bit of leniency and more ways to get past files. A player can sacrifice a bit of accuracy so they can hit certain patterns more easily and still get perfects, for example by jumping trills or jump trilling rolls. So there is more than one way to get the maximum on a a score. People actually study files in order to find new ways to simplify or interpret them, in order to increase their score. You can either hit early or late in the perfect window depending on how you feel, and still get a perfect, or aim to get average the whole way through. There is room for multiple interpretations and players will often have different ways of approaching the same file to each other.

When you say that the game absolutely does not incentivise creativity I find that also wrong. To get the highest scores on the hardest files you often do have to be creative and often the best players are the most creative. The best example I can think of was in the race to AAA Crowdpleaser quite a few years ago. You had to somehow combo the 64th note trill and not lose your PA, which seemed like an impossible task back then. I'm not sure how it was done first time round but people came up with quite a few inventive ways of PAing the trill by using double set-up, by vibrating and by jump trilling with both hands on the same set of keys. There was constant one upping and rivalry before someone managed it and that person was rewarded with being the first to AAA.

Emanresu13 11-9-2012 03:22 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
i'd say the most obvious sign of creativity in a player is anti-skill

igotrhythm 11-11-2012 11:53 PM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynam0 (Post 3800173)
I've been curious about this as well. What kind of processes occur in the brain while playing something for the first time as opposed to the 50th time for instance. Lots of neat stuff especially in pattern recognition and reaction time in that field :p

You can't take any electronic stuff into an MRI room, sadly. You could try CT or PET, but the only surefire way would be EEG leads while you're playing.

Pseudo Enigma 11-12-2012 12:17 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
It trains your percussion skills... at least before it kills your wrists lol

Cavernio 11-12-2012 09:04 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by igotrhythm (Post 3801518)
You can't take any electronic stuff into an MRI room, sadly.

Thousands of research projects use fMRI where the participants push buttons in reponse to what they see on a screen. I would say that that's even the standard way psychologists use fMRI's.

stargroup100 12-21-2012 12:38 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
I use a very direct explanation when people confront me with similar discussions and questions.

I tell people that art comes in two forms: you're either making something from scratch, or you're making something which is a derivative of another work. For example: if you're writing sheet music, you're making something from scratch. If you're performing someone's music, you're creating something derivative of another's work. If you make a recording of your music and produce it, you're making it from scratch. If someone else dances to this music, that's derivative of your work.

Rhythm simulation doesn't create something from scratch. It's similar to dancing in the sense that its purpose is to highlight the music and create something derivative of existing work. Charting has a lot of similarities to music because they share a lot of mechanics. However, I've recently found out that the function of the charts are more likened to dance. When I'm watching a dance I really like, and the dancer executes a really cool move to a part of the music it fits, it gives me an almost identical feeling to when I'm playing a chart that uses a particular technique or pattern at a very fitting point in the music.

And that is how I would describe rhythm simulation as an art to other people.

Reincarnate 12-21-2012 12:50 AM

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games
 
I kinda miss the days when freestyle DDR was still a thing... there was some really creative stuff back then


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution