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-   -   Are you insecure about your intelligence? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=119274)

awein999 06-16-2011 06:21 AM

Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
If so, do you or don't you strive for more intellect?

If not, do you or don't you strive for more intellect?

Feel free to elaborate and expand from these questions.


edit:
(If this will get a lot more looks in chit chat I'd like it moved.)

kmay 06-16-2011 06:37 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I don't like when people know I'm smart. It just always leads to them wanting answers from me or help, and I don't strive to learn anything new, it just happens when I sit in class like most other people.

who_cares973 06-16-2011 07:05 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I enjoy learning, I love learning new things and seek out knowledge. Im not a fan of people knowing how smart I am. I feel like they get intimidated and think of me differently.

kommisar 06-16-2011 07:45 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I spend hours reading on articles about the randomest shit.


Though I often find myself comparing my knowledge with others and I often get depressed at the fact that they're usually smarter than I am.

It feels good to know that I'm smarter than most people though. The smart to retard ratio in north america is astronomical.

Engler 06-16-2011 07:46 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
During my earlier years, I would often jump at the chance to demonstrate my intellect, either through excessively verbose speech or fact-spewing. A lot of people assumed that I was an arrogant asshole, when in actuality I was quite the opposite; a lonely kid with cripplingly low self-esteem who needed some sort of coping mechanism.

I've since mellowed out, but I wonder what relationships I might have either seriously damaged or missed out on because of my snobbish behavior. :/

m0de 06-16-2011 07:50 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Yes, some of the time. :/

G.S.M 06-16-2011 07:57 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Nope! If people have a problem with me they can screw themselves. Though most people these days are pretty stupid. (not trying to sound like an asshole here but I just get tired of people complaining about stupid things) I don't know why people would feel insecure, but that's just me.

where is the never option? ;p

MaxGhost 06-16-2011 08:11 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Engler (Post 3487792)
During my earlier years, I would often jump at the chance to demonstrate my intellect, either through excessively verbose speech or fact-spewing. A lot of people assumed that I was an arrogant asshole, when in actuality I was quite the opposite; a lonely kid with cripplingly low self-esteem who needed some sort of coping mechanism.

I've since mellowed out, but I wonder what relationships I might have either seriously damaged or missed out on because of my snobbish behavior. :/

Exactly this for me as well.

I remember in 3rd grade, a class-mate's last name was 'MacDonald' and I was completely used to seeing it spelled 'McDonald' that I actually told her she spelled her name wrong... and to make it even worse, when she told me otherwise, I insisted. God I was so snobby/stupid back then :/

Sephiroth28 06-16-2011 09:32 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Nah, I know I'm pretty intelligent I just don't really care. People can say what they want and I'll learn something when I feel like it.

iironiic 06-16-2011 10:52 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Many people have always come to me for help on math. Some people have considered me as an "answer key". I really hate calling myself smart because to me, "smart" is a subjective term. Honestly, I don't think I am all that intelligent in math because all I can do is just apply what I know in an efficient manner. Some people translate this to being smart however, and I can see why. Here's another question for all of you to ponder: Are people who could memorize dates in history considered smart, or do they just have that ability to memorize?

As for striving for more intellect, I only do it whenever it's possible and if I'm interested.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engler (Post 3487792)
During my earlier years, I would often jump at the chance to demonstrate my intellect, either through excessively verbose speech or fact-spewing. A lot of people assumed that I was an arrogant asshole, when in actuality I was quite the opposite; a lonely kid with cripplingly low self-esteem who needed some sort of coping mechanism.

I've since mellowed out, but I wonder what relationships I might have either seriously damaged or missed out on because of my snobbish behavior. :/

This happened to me too.

ddr_f4n 06-16-2011 12:26 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kommisar (Post 3487791)
Though I often find myself comparing my knowledge with others and I often get depressed at the fact that they're usually smarter than I am.

It feels good to know that I'm smarter than most people though. The smart to retard ratio in north america is astronomical.

I guess that's what everyone feels once they're in College or University. Since everyone is supposedly smart you start to feel like a minority when comparing yourself with everyone there.

Then you come to reality and realize how lucky you are :P

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 01:12 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Not at all. I love learning and I love the power that comes with intelligence.

One thing I miss is that when I was in college, I was surrounded by lots of smart people. After you graduate, you leave that bubble and are suddenly shellshocked by how stupid everyone is outside of it. I wouldn't be so hostile against stupidity if it didn't cause problems for everyone else so frequently.

Zageron 06-16-2011 01:17 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I don't mind being more intelligent that people I know, but it bothers me that I have lots of general intelligence and I don't excel in any particular areas. I'm smart, but I've never been a specialist. This annoys me.

3lijah 06-16-2011 01:31 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I'd like to say that I am a smart person, I just don't have any drive to show it. I'm not interested. Self-motivation, maybe?

3Bey 06-16-2011 01:48 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Hum, what do you mean by "being smart"? Because, like iironriic said:
Quote:

Some people translate this to being smart however, and I can see why. Here's another question for all of you to ponder: Are people who could memorize dates in history considered smart, or do they just have that ability to memorize?
You see, intelligence don't just come in a package deal...

A scientific can be really intelligent in his science and still do stupid things in normal life.

Like, I heard that HQ is no longer appropriate. What is use know is more about multiple intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_..._intelligences.

But, to answer your question, in my program, I'm kind of seeking for high grades (to enter in medicine). So, when it comes to compare with others that have difficulties... I'm always kind of unease. I don't know how to act. In my childhood, some people really have a bad reaction just because of two or three bad words I said in my entire sentence...You know, you have to be really careful because they already hate you for your grades...

But, if I'm intelligent? Well, I have good grades, but I study A LOT to get them. However, I would still be» more intelligent" then the average if I stop to study tomorrow.

If I like to increase my intellect? Yes, I think, I always like to improve myself and especially when it comes to discover the world. But, again, the term is large.

Cavernio 06-16-2011 03:23 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
So....I totally voted wrongly because I misread the thingy. Ironically, I said I thought I was smart.

I voted the last choice, when I should have voted the second last choice.

I think I am intelligent, but I feel like I lack knowledge, and I will only go out of my way for knowledge if I want specifics about something, so I only sometimes try to make myself smarter. I am usually completely unaware about current politics and news (don't read the paper, watch the news, read the news on the internet), and even though I've bought books about subjects that interest me greatly years ago, they're still mostly unread. (Although I will point out that reading some of those books is a total chore because they will often lay foundations of ideas that then, in my head, must agree with, despite it not being the focus of the book, in order for me to want to keep reading.)

I mean, there's so much knowledge and so many ideas out there that it would be impossible for me to learn it all, and why would I need to learn it all if I can just look it up?

Engler: Are you my BF? Because I've never seen you here, and I know my bf doesn't come here, but he knows I post here all the time, and I could practically quote your line as his, and I do think that he may (might) at some point come looking here for shits and giggles simply because he knows this is my little 'online community'. I mean, I'm assuming you're not, so at least take some pleasure in that you're not the only one, and that my bf is clearly not 'alone' right now. Also, I'm not sure he got over what you experienced as a child until older than 18, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

What Reincarnate said about the bubble of college/university too. Except I don't think I have as much against stupid people as he does. Some people just don't get 'it', and you can't blame them for it, especially if they try, and often people will appear more stupid than they are. I feel like I'm the latter, (IRL though, not of these forums...I once tried to enter a discussion with one of my profs regarding 'encephalatitis', when it is 'encephalitis'...adding syllables to words can only make you sound dumb) and it pisses me off to no end when someone thinks I am dumb because they perceive some action I do as being dumb, when usually, I've over-analyzed it or something, ergo making the 'dumb' choice seem much more intelligent to me. I like to think I do a good job of not judging people for small things that I may not fully understand.

DarknessXoXLight 06-16-2011 03:28 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I'm not insecure about it, I just tend not to ... "flaunt" it or show it. I really am intelligent, but during my senior year when I told people what I got on my ACT they were like wtf? I thought you were dumb. And I'm like ... why did you think that? Nobody really had an answer lolol. Oh well. Now people pay me to do their homework for them so, tch.

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 03:34 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I'll give you $5000 if you beat my ACT score

Thatskier 06-16-2011 03:40 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3487912)
I'll give you $5000 if you beat my ACT score


What is it

SKG_Scintill 06-16-2011 04:02 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
People say I'm intelligent, but I'm too lazy to bother.

DarknessXoXLight 06-16-2011 04:10 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3487912)
I'll give you $5000 if you beat my ACT score

I have a feeling you got a 36 lmfao.

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 04:15 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
mebbe

darkshark 06-16-2011 05:32 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I'm only insecure in the fact that sometimes I tend to make people feel inferior =/
Contrary to my internet persona, I actually try to be really kind to everyone and help people as much as possible, so at times when I know I've kinda put a damper on someones self esteem mine takes a blow as well.

Otherwise, quest for knowledge never stops.


ps. Rubix if your score was so awesome why didn't you get a full scholarship or anything xD

stargroup100 06-16-2011 05:49 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Engler (Post 3487792)
During my earlier years, I would often jump at the chance to demonstrate my intellect, either through excessively verbose speech or fact-spewing. A lot of people assumed that I was an arrogant asshole, when in actuality I was quite the opposite; a lonely kid with cripplingly low self-esteem who needed some sort of coping mechanism.

I've since mellowed out, but I wonder what relationships I might have either seriously damaged or missed out on because of my snobbish behavior. :/

I've definitely destroyed a lot of relationships because of this kind of situation. It's one the root causes of my depression and lack of social activity (and lack of desire to put myself in social situations).

However, I've learned through my experiences in college and various materials in the last few years that intelligence isn't all it's cracked up to be. I always dream about being one of greatest minds in the history of mathematics of physics or something to that extent, but I understand that if I were ever in that situation, I would be extremely unhappy.

The people who blindly push forward in the pursuit of intelligence sometimes unintentionally disregard wisdom. The strive so hard to find that accomplishment, happiness, and actualization that sometimes they miss what was in front of their eyes from the very beginning. Competition isn't enough, you need observation. Innovation isn't enough, you need imitation. Passion isn't enough, you need temperance. Skill isn't enough, you need experience.

Everything we do needs to have balance from all possible points of view from all possible areas. There is literally nothing in the universe that the quote "the more, the better" can apply literally to. Just as the intelligent people need to find a balance between intelligence and wisdom on a personal level, the communities need to find a balance between the intelligent people and the wise people, and the world needs a balance between smart people and stupid people.

"Ignorance is bliss."
Everyone has heard this quote before, but I don't think anyone realizes what this quote actually means. "Stupid" people are happy because they have nothing to worry about. They work to do the jobs that sustain themselves and their family, they enjoy life and live it. Only the smart people actually worry about the high level problems. They strive so hard to find that something extra, a level above what everyone else is content with, and when they have trouble meeting their expectations, they are not satisfied.

I've had my fair share of compliments, but I know I'm not brilliant. However, I know I'm not stupid. I'm stuck in this odd gap where I don't know what to do. I want to be on the end with the super geniuses of our time, but when that became unrealistic, I began to question myself, my purpose, and my happiness. Just as I had given up hope, I understood that I was exactly where I was supposed to be. It doesn't matter how smart I am or not. I found so many activities and subjects I'm grateful for, including music, math, rhythm gaming, volleyball, etc. I didn't need to be such an important academic icon. My contributions and happiness simply depended on myself enjoying life as I lived it, appreciating the delicate balance that is already established in the world and how I fit so well into it. Intelligence doesn't matter. The world is already growing and balancing itself over time. There is no reasons to set expectations that aren't realistic, because we are all where we are supposed to be.

A lot of this sounds cliche and trite, but there is a whole layer of meaning people don't realize until they experience it firsthand. There's no real way to describe it other than with these cliche sayings, but there's a reason why they are so well-known.

stargroup100 06-16-2011 05:51 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darkshark (Post 3487971)
ps. Rubix if your score was so awesome why didn't you get a full scholarship or anything xD

owned

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 06:08 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
No, you guys are both retarded.

Top schools don't offer merit-based aid because EVERYONE there has high merit. Aid is need-based, and each year costs like $50,000 plus the cost of food, clothes, and everything else you want to buy external to school itself. But I did have a crapton of scholarships going in. I still had quite a lot to take out in loans due to my father dying and my mother getting an asston of money out of insurance policies + the fact that my father had a large house, boat, etc -- assets that count against aid.

At any rate, I had like 2390 SAT and 36 ACT, 4.0 GPA, Harvard Book Award + Val status, blah blah blah, got a lot of money from all that alone plus extra cash from writing a bunch of BS essays.

stargroup100 06-16-2011 06:24 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3487998)
At any rate, I had like 2390 SAT...

durp you didn't get a perfect score your opinion is invalid

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 06:27 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
36 ACT is basically the same thing as 2400 SAT lol
besides had like 5 SAT2 800's so 790 is clearly just noise

Kilroy_x 06-16-2011 06:30 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I am severely insecure about my intelligence, largely because even though I was understood to be absolutely exceptional from a young age, it was apparently more important to send me to an alternative school in order to correct my non-heteronormative behavior than it was to foster that intelligence in any way. I was f.u.c.k.ed out of all the standard contexts for establishing intelligence -> learning basic skills necessary for STEM fields -> getting into a good college -> learning important things there -> proving myself in that context/networking in that context -> becoming successful. I would have destroyed everyone here at everything if I had been educated properly. I am better than you. Fundamentally. I have just never been allowed to be.

stargroup100 06-16-2011 06:34 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
rubix is clearly insecure because he's trying to convince us he's smart by telling us his sat scores

cool story bro

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 06:35 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
say stargroup you ever get into yale like you wanted

stargroup100 06-16-2011 06:36 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
pffft who the hell goes to yale for engineering

are you dumb or something

iironiic 06-16-2011 06:37 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Standardized testing shouldn't be brought up in a conversation about intelligence. Just saying.

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 06:37 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
you're the one who wanted in, you tell me

stargroup100 06-16-2011 06:40 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
you didn't score 2400

this is the topic we are currently discussing

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 06:41 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
ah i forgot i'm talking to the statistical genius who thinks grandtotal is unethical

Kilroy_x 06-16-2011 06:54 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
99.9th percentile Raven APM

My Weshler score was only like 127 or something though. I failed the visual memory portion of the test.

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 07:00 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
The Raven APM test is a pretty decent test imo

darkshark 06-16-2011 07:01 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Damn, it's getting warm in here.

I really like how FFR has a relatively high amount of above average thinkers. Granted we have just as many tards, but you guys make this a better place.

iironiic 06-16-2011 07:04 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darkshark (Post 3488033)
Damn, it's getting warm in here.

I really like how FFR has a relatively high amount of above average thinkers. Granted we have just as many tards, but you guys make this a better place.

This. 8) Certainly makes FFR a lot more interesting.

dag12 06-16-2011 07:05 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 3488018)
pffft who the hell goes to yale for engineering

are you dumb or something

Pffft like it really matters at the undergrad level

/defendingYale

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 07:09 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
yeah six figures out of college is overrated anyway right

more fun to be dragged through the shitty economy

Kilroy_x 06-16-2011 07:11 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
It matters for networking and brand recognition. But then that same brand recognition allows you to buy a one-off piece of paper from a diploma mill if you're really desperate for a job. Hey guyz I have a BS from "Cornel", I can haz jobs?

darkshark 06-16-2011 07:33 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Difficulty of a chart does change over time.

Difficulty is an interpretation.

Interpretation changes as we adapt and improve.

Zageron 06-16-2011 09:03 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3488031)
The Raven APM test is a pretty decent test imo

I recall doing a Raven type test a long time ago @ http://www.iqtest.dk/main.swf
Managed a perfect score.

Did another one today @ http://www.egopont.com/iqtest
Got a perfect score within 8 minutes.

Where can I find a more legit version of this test?

Reincarnate 06-16-2011 09:08 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
My old iqtest.dk score: http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3533/iqtestdk.png

Jacking from an old post from Reach:

SPATIAL TESTS (Culture Fair)

1. Mensa Denmark - Based on Ravens APM: http://www.iqtest.dk/main.swf Has a ceiling of 145.
2. TRI 52: Take this test if you scored 130 or higher on the first test: http://www.cerebrals.com/tests/tri/TRI52.html Has a ceiling of 165

VERBAL TESTS (Culturally biased)

1. CCAT: Take this test if you scored well on the first Spatial test or would like to try a verbal test instead. Keep in mind it is quite difficult. http://www.cerebrals.com/tests/ccat/verbal1.html Has a ceiling of 170+. (*NOTE: This test requires English and basic math proficiency)

VERBAL + SPATIAL TESTS

1. TITAN Test: Take this test if you scored over 150 on the TRI 52 or the CCAT: http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/titan.html Has a ceiling of 190 (*NOTE: This test is not free to score).

CONTESTS

Cerebrals Society International Contest: http://www.cerebrals.com/tests/cpic/...%20CONTEST.pdf

iironiic 06-16-2011 09:24 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Are these IQ tests accurate for finding your true IQ? I heard that you'll have a better idea of what your IQ is if you took the test (administered by a certified psychologist) on paper with a time constraint.

awein999 06-16-2011 09:30 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
When I think of the word intelligence, the last thing that jumps into my mind are grades, and ACT/SAT scores. Intelligence means so much more than a grade received in school, or how much less dumb you are than most people in the classroom. Keep in mind those standardized tests are typically races. For true knowledge it is a marathon not a sprint.

The beauty of intelligence is that you can be a smarter than the average person if you excel at one thing, which can be pretty much anything. I think of intelligence broadly as the ability to see situations around me with a rational, levelheaded perspective.

And lets face it, your attitude and the choices you make in life are greatly more important than your intelligence. There are unintelligent people that have the skill of being greatly kind and empathetic towards others while some very smart people lack that great attribute dearly.

cixOclock 06-16-2011 09:38 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I've done one IQ test to my knowledge back when I was twelve I think it was around 120 or something like that can't really remember.
Whereas my dad who actually is smart... (thanks for making me look bad), has around 170, 180.

But that was years ago, but now I study a lot of philosophy, old writings, Chaucer, and other old writers, mainly old Japanese works like Sun Tzu.

I don't have a lot of math knowledge, but that's mainly because it bores me and I find infinity rather boring.
I'll have to try out the IQ tests though...

However, I'd have to say it annoys me when someone is chauvinist about their intellect, but ahwell.

And oh yeah, this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by awein999 (Post 3488161)
And lets face it, your attitude and the choices you make in life are greatly more important than your intelligence. There are unintelligent people that have the skill of being greatly kind and empathetic towards others while some very smart people lack that great attribute dearly.


Reincarnate 06-16-2011 09:40 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
you can be very socially intelligent, mathematically intelligent, musically intelligent, artistically intelligent, spatially intelligent, logically intelligent, verbally intelligent, whatever. Many flavors of intelligence and ways of simply being able to be really good at a particular form of mental skillsets.

but there is a concept called "g" which is "general intelligence": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_facto...ychometrics%29



"An illustration of Spearman's two-factor intelligence theory. Each small oval is a hypothetical mental test. The blue areas show the variance attributed to s, and the purple areas the variance attributed to g."

a highly g-loaded person can be good at generally anything he tries/practices. the same can't be said for some people who may have an extreme talent in one particular sector of intelligence.

But don't go knocking around "intelligence" as if it's some loose-weave concept that isn't important somehow. Intelligence is extremely empowering and opens so many doors for you. Definitely not worth being insecure over. It's easier to make better life decisions when you're intelligent enough to make them.

3Bey 06-16-2011 11:09 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

I think of intelligence broadly as the ability to see situations around me with a rational, levelheaded perspective.
Oh, if it's that you're talking about, I had a boost of intelligence in the last past year. And now, if you say that, for you, intelligence means this, well, yes, I'm f***ing intelligent compare to the average! XD

But, more seriously, to talk about what Reincarnate is bringing, I see it like this: intelligence opens the doors, and wisdom (or how aweiin99 just called intelligence), help you to choose which door you should go through. Our society gives a lot of importance to the first kind of intelligence, and kinf of forget the other...

But this intelligence is very, VERY important. From my point of view, it's the most important. But, well, I agree that being smart like you all seems to be can be very usefull.

The only thing is that, like you all just demonstrated, some people who really are intelligent ( and I'm talking of the one who opens door), kind of build thier selfestime around it, and judge people depending to it, when it's...not the only thing that matter in life...

But, for me, if I can just succeed and study in medecine, it would be just fine!XD

ffraxis 06-17-2011 01:59 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
A genius is a regular person who can use their brain and work hard a lot.
A smart person is a regular person who can use their brain and work sometimes.
A dumb person is a regular person who can use their brain and do little work.
An idiot is that person that contradicted what you believe to be true in an apparently insulting fashion.
A handicapped person includes all of the above.

Zageron 06-17-2011 01:59 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
What do the Raven IQ tests really determine though? I mean, I am terrible at Calculus. I can't do it. It's extraordinarily hard to me. I'm sure I'm also impossible bad at many other things as well. So what do these tests measure? By having a perfect score I can't be all knowing... :|

awein999 06-17-2011 04:28 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
There appears to be little to no relation regarding intelligence insecurity and motivation for greater intelligence. Interesting.

Then again it's a small sample size with a low variance of poll takers :-P

Cavernio 06-17-2011 05:13 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I don't care what psychometricians say, if you know what a test is going to be like, you can study for it, ergo the results of it are going to be based on how well you studied it more than anything else. (But I suppose the same can be said of real life.) I am still very doubtful about how well psychometric tests can be generalized beyond the test. **** g and IQ and any of those other tests that people mentioned.

Canada FTW, no college aptitude tests required.

Kilroy, you assume again that you're smarter than everyone else, but just never had the right opportunities...but it seems you assume everyone else had them. You would be much happier if you didn't sit on such a high horse; even if you're right, it's only making you miserable. (But really, who am I to be speaking about happiness.)
Interesting tidbit you've probably heard of already, (but in case you haven't), men are 'generally' better at visualization tasks than women.

DossarLX ODI 06-17-2011 10:14 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I was thinking that "intelligence" just means that you can profit from experience. In other words, being able to apply whatever you've learned or what skills you have.

All of you can agree that whatever knowledge you possess now didn't just come out of thin air. It came from experience.

3Bey 06-17-2011 10:23 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Canada FTW, no college aptitude tests required.
They still check our result with the R quote (may have another name in english...)...

Quote:

All of you can agree that whatever knowledge you possess now didn't just come out of thin air. It came from experience.
yes but the facility you had to gain them come from intelligence.

Reach 06-18-2011 12:19 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3488648)
I don't care what psychometricians say, if you know what a test is going to be like, you can study for it, ergo the results of it are going to be based on how well you studied it more than anything else. (But I suppose the same can be said of real life.) I am still very doubtful about how well psychometric tests can be generalized beyond the test. **** g and IQ and any of those other tests that people mentioned.



What do you say of studies on the reliability of tests such as RAPM? It is quite high.

A number of studies attempt to train people to do better on the test, resulting in small gains after several training periods (1-5 points), and as much as 10 points gained with extensive training (months). However, the catch is that once training stops, your score goes back to whatever you scored the first time and stabilizes throughout your lifespan +- standard error (Actually, your raw score tends to decrease slowly after the age of ~30, but the score you receive corrects for age).

Also, what do you say of the correlation between IQ and scholastic performance? Ravens APM scores have been shown to correlate ~r =0.8 with SAT math scores, and even 0.7 with SAT verbal scores. That is, people that do well on IQ tests consistently do well at any kind of standardized test. Also, Job performance? IQ tests are most definitely the best predictor of job performance we have. People with higher IQs consistently learn faster and perform better across time. The Army knows this all too well; they have so much data backing this up it's not even funny. For example, why do you think you have to 'pass' the aptitude test to be a pilot? Lower IQ is correlated with more accidents and lower reaction time, leading to astronomically higher costs to the army. Smart people are cheaper and more efficient.


G is far from useless. It's simply important to understand the limitations of the test, what the score actually means, and what g actually means. g is correlated with almost everything you do on a mental level, because...that is the essence of g. That doesn't mean it defines you or what you can do. I see IQ tests and their mental assessment analogously to the way pictures show your physical characteristics; a picture can show you a lot about what someone looks like and their physical characteristics, but it's only a single snapshot in time in a particular situation. Even with that said, you still continue to look very similar throughout your life...


If you're interested in why g is an important concept, I recommend reading: http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson...hygmatters.pdf

"Intelligence is not the amount of information people know, but their ability to recognize, acquire, organize, update, select, and apply it effectively."

OneHandNow 06-18-2011 01:21 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
lol reading rubix vs stargroup100 was pretty funny


to answer the topic's question:

i am most definitely not insecure about my intellect - i am rather proud of it because i know i'm part of the top

and i always strive for more, because i know there are infinitely many more people who are more knowledgable, and ultimately a better person than i am




edit: welp, tried the spatial test (culture fair), got up to number 34, and had 25 minutes leftover and didn't feel like spending the next 25 minutes on the 5 problems and just guessed on the other 5..

136 x_x

bmah 06-18-2011 03:49 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I'm one of those people whom people say "you're smarter than you'd like to admit" - that's what they say. I guess you can say this uncertainty in myself, regardless of my potential, is a form of intellectual insecurity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneHandNow (Post 3488892)
i am most definitely not insecure about my intellect - i am rather proud of it because i know i'm part of the top

and i always strive for more, because i know there are infinitely many more people who are more knowledgable, and ultimately a better person than i am

Intellectual? Alright. Mentally secure? This quote sure doesn't sound like it. You shouldn't be overly concerned about your intellectual placement; rather, get some experience in other activities and then complement that with your knowledge.

Cavernio 06-18-2011 10:07 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3Bey (Post 3488785)
yes but the facility you had to gain them come from intelligence.

Which would make kids far more intelligent than any adult could ever be, yet I don't think most people define intelligence that way.

Cavernio 06-18-2011 10:57 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Reliability to re-taking a test? Well, if they never learned the right answer in the first place, or how to get it, of course it's going to be similar.


I would say that I have to read those studies so I can pick them apart mercilessly (as I tend to do with any study I bother to read.) Have you ever 'trained' someone for psychometric tests? I have. Most people didn't give a shit about how well they did, (they were in it to boost their grade for their psyc class,) most people tried to get in and out of the study as fast as possible since it took like 2 friggin hours. Not that every study does this, but unless you have clear motivation for someone to learn something, I'm going to say training doesn't cut it. Especially since about the maximum motivation you could give someone would be to, say, pay them money for getting a higher score, once the study is done, they have no reason to retain the skills they had learned.

I personally think motivation is a huge factor in performance for, well, anything. And that includes intelligence testing, and most of the things you say it correlates with, can all be confounded by one's motivation to succeed. If we could figure out good measures of motivation, I strongly suspect the strength of all the general measures that we say point to intelligence would be weakened. However, I also don't think we have a good measure for motivation, and I think most people would agree to that. (But why should measuring motivation be any harder than measuring any other general idea of a person, like intelligence?)

I remember studies saying that the best predictor of college performance was the amount of sleep someone got, better than SAT's or highschool grades and IQ. You also point this out yourself, that the ability to perform well on tests, in general, correlates with itself quite nicely.

The army retains a bunch of old data from old IQ tests that were clearly based a lot on culture and language, which have since had them torn to shreds by many a researcher. Makes sense that people who score high on those perform well in the army, doesn't mean that it's actually measuring intelligence though.

Regardless of everything else though, the very fact that intelligence testing is not close to 100% in predicting anything, just shows how poor we are at measuring it.
I'm not saying that intelligence isn't important. You can either look at something and say 'it predicts it this well' or look at it and say 'this much variation is left up to other things.'

The essence of G is to try and be what you say it is. That does not mean it succeeds.

I don't think we can really do a debate like this justice without reams of scientific articles about the subject though.

Reach 06-18-2011 12:40 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

I don't think we can really do a debate like this justice without reams of scientific articles about the subject though.
Well, I posted an article with numerous citations in it. Much of what I talked about is cited in the paper.

http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson...hygmatters.pdf

Obviously there are databases of research on this topic, but most of the points I'm trying to make here are covered there.

Quote:

I personally think motivation is a huge factor in performance for, well, anything.
Of course. Some people are not motivated to try to do well on IQ tests, but that's why a professional assessment of your ability should be taken before ever making wide reaching claims about what you can and cannot do. Psychologists are trained to recognize non compliance, especially from youngsters, and that can obviously invalidate scores.

Quote:

I remember studies saying that the best predictor of college performance was the amount of sleep someone got, better than SAT's or highschool grades and IQ. You also point this out yourself, that the ability to perform well on tests, in general, correlates with itself quite nicely.
I don't see how that could correlate at all, since people sleep different amounts naturally. Obviously getting a good nights sleep is important though; it's well documented that taking an IQ test, for example, when exhausted can decrease your score (though, it appears to have no effect in certain individuals).

With respect to tests; tests can test anything. The crux of g is that I can literally test you on ANY mental task in ANY format and it will have some correlation with your overall IQ.

Quote:

The army retains a bunch of old data from old IQ tests that were clearly based a lot on culture and language, which have since had them torn to shreds by many a researcher. Makes sense that people who score high on those perform well in the army, doesn't mean that it's actually measuring intelligence though.
Not all sections of the test are based on language. Some of them are spatial and have shown little to no cultural bias. They're also heavily correlated with performance on language tests.

Maybe language tests aren't measuring 'intelligence' as you define it, but whatever they are measuring is a good predictor of your ability to learn and perform any number of tasks. If this isn't intelligence, than what is?


Quote:

Regardless of everything else though, the very fact that intelligence testing is not close to 100% in predicting anything, just shows how poor we are at measuring it.
How so? No statistical test is ever going to predict anything 100% accurately. Not only is that mathematically impossible within a population, but it isn't the goal of psychometrics.

Cavernio 06-18-2011 10:24 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
You brushed off what I am beginning to see as the most important point I was making.

I wasn't talking merely about motivation and outright non-compliance on tests.

People say that g represents some sort of general intelligence. But it seems to me that it could represent some sort of general motivation among people of good enough intelligence to understand the nature of a test. Someone motivated tries harder at various things like school, their job, and other academic or psychometric tests...all of which supposedly represent intelligence.

g clearly cannot represent some sort of general intelligence anyways, because of the vastness of beings that can have some intelligence who cannot take any sort of test; animals, severly retarded humans, people who have never had any sort of education (well only some tests for those peopl.)

As to the amount of sleep relating to school grades, I will say that I never read any article about it, but I distinctly remember being told that by my first year psychology professors (in more than one class.) Secondly, just because you point out variables in why something doesn't correlate perfectly, doesn't mean that it a relationship doesn't exist. I'm actually kinda surprised you just didn't say something like intelligent people probably sleep more.

"Maybe language tests aren't measuring 'intelligence' as you define it, but whatever they are measuring is a good predictor of your ability to learn and perform any number of tasks. If this isn't intelligence, than what is? "

I'm going to pretend your last sentence is "If this isn't intelligence, than what is it?", because I can say it's motivation.

Lets be real here, if shonin has taught us anything, its that if I work hard, I can accomplish greatness!

My, well, disillusion, at psychometrics is not just in regards to intelligence testing, it's more generalized than that. However, measures of intelligence, and the very fact that people have thought up of the idea of g, means that people think very highly of it.

Zageron 06-18-2011 11:26 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I'm finding the the questions on TRI52 that go like this > to be extremely difficult. The rest are simple, but these ones are stumping me.

Edit: Correction, nearly the entire second half of the test is extremely difficult. I'm nearly at 50, I wonder what I'll get... :s

Edit 2: O wtf the more you do right the farther it lets you go? This test could take forever. ;_;

Artic_counter 06-18-2011 11:53 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I'm neither secure nor insecure. I mostly don't give a shit about it. Even though it wasn't always the case.

I've went through both phase. I've once been extremely secure about my intellect at one point because I was literary the best at everything I did (read childhood) but I've also been insecure when I realized that a lot of people were capable of reaching up to my talents with hard work. Especially in math. Which I now consider to be a passionate hobby I'm really interested into compared to something I used to determine how "intelligent" I was.

Nowadays, I just appreciate the fact that I'm a little bit gifted and I do not strive to increase my intellect for the sake of increasing my intellect. I will actually care about it only if I need to work hard on it in order to have fun with my life and achieve whatever goals that I want to pursue. Which is something I find to be a lot healthier.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I really enjoy learning things and that I'm curious as hell lol.

Zageron 06-19-2011 01:44 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Well I ended up with 134. Some of those questions just stopped me in my tracks. Specifically the > ones. :(

Would really like to know how they are done eventually.

Cavernio 06-20-2011 07:59 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
K, thought about something beside motivation or intelligence g could be measuring: concentration.

Makes the most sense to me actually. It is very heavily tied into the concept of intelligence too, in that I think intelligence, by necessity, requires concentration. Children would still break this mold though, they seem to learn without having to try. Some learn faster because they do try.

Another thing to add to the list in regards to how tests fail to measure intelligence would be computers. Usually not thought of as highly intelligent, but they could ace some of those tests.

Reincarnate 06-20-2011 08:52 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
g is most certainly *not* mere concentration

XCV 06-20-2011 01:22 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3489838)
Children would still break this mold though, they seem to learn without having to try

This is very true. I didn't have to take notes or study for a test until I started taking AP classes two months ago. I just retained everything, either that or I already knew it.

Then again, my IQ is somewhere in the 150s, but that probably doesn't play a part.

Cavernio 06-20-2011 01:57 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3489847)
g is most certainly *not* mere concentration

It is certainly not mere intelligence either.

Reincarnate 06-20-2011 02:02 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
It's general cognitive ability

Cavernio 06-21-2011 01:42 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
That's the same thing, and its still just theory, and you're not even bothering to argue why anything I mentioned is invalid, which is important because if what I said is valid, the theory that g measures general cognitive ability is a bunch of BS. At the very least, if we could somehow validly factor in motivation and concentration into g's measurements, if my hypothesis is true, the strength of g would be reduced. The strongest case would be for g to become an utterly useless measure of general cognitive ability.

I mean, think about an example of it. For instance, why would you ever consider something like reaction time to be a representation of general cognitive ability? The fact that it would ever be included in a measure of g seems to be that it loads nicely into it. And the fact that it does makes people think 'oh, reaction time is a good measure of general cognitive ability', using circular reasoning to validate it instead of thinking, 'oh, that's odd, why would something as simple and unintelligent as reaction time be loading into a measure of general cognitive ability?'

That's the funny thing with, well, any measures of validity for any psychometric test; its generally a giant circular path that is set up to validate itself. Measures of validity can only be known to truly be valid if they show that the test isn't valid.

Reincarnate 06-21-2011 01:49 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Because intelligence and concentration are completely different things. It doesn't matter how "hard" an average intellect concentrates on some difficult problem. If they can't solve it, they can't solve it. It's just something you need to account for in assessing how a question was answered. If a high-g person doesn't concentrate at all and bombs a bunch of questions he would have gotten right had he focused, that doesn't mean he's low g. It means his results are invalid.

It's like trying to argue that a 120 MPH-capable car isn't actually fast because you test drive it and never take it above 60 MPH. It's a test error that simply needs correction for the sake of measuring the capability of the thing you're trying to test.

You can call it whatever you want -- I mean any set of positively-correlated variables will necessarily have a factor that explains most of the variance when you perform component analysis. It just so happens that when it comes to intelligence metrics, we slap "g" to the high-variance-explaining element. That element gives a statistical predictive power. If you know something about g, you can estimate what results you'll get on a variety of other metrics.

So like it or not, there are statistical strengths when it comes to g, so I've always found little sense in the "does g exist?" argument. It can predict and correlate to many things, and so in this sense -- yes, it exists. There are simple tests (elementary cognitive tests) that strongly correlate with g, so again, if you know something about the ECT performance, you'll know something about g, and in turn you'll know something about how you'd perform at a great deal of other tasks. A lot of this data is well-supported.

Reincarnate 06-21-2011 02:13 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
"I mean, think about an example of it. For instance, why would you ever consider something like reaction time to be a representation of general cognitive ability?"

Because less reaction time on a simple cognitive test means you spent less time thinking about it.

From the wiki:

Elementary cognitive tasks (ECTs) also correlate strongly with g. ECTs are, as the name suggests, simple tasks that apparently require very little intelligence, but still correlate strongly with more exhaustive intelligence tests. Determining whether a light is red or blue and determining whether there are four or five squares drawn on a computer screen are two examples of ECTs. The answers to such questions are usually provided by quickly pressing buttons. Often, in addition to buttons for the two options provided, a third button is held down from the start of the test. When the stimulus is given to the subject, he removes his hand from the starting button to the button of the correct answer. This allows the examiner to determine how much time was spent thinking about the answer to the question (reaction time, usually measured in small fractions of second), and how much time was spent on physical hand movement to the correct button (movement time). Reaction time correlates strongly with g, while movement time correlates less strongly.[10] ECT testing has allowed quantitative examination of hypotheses concerning test bias, subject motivation, and group differences. By virtue of their simplicity, ECTs provide a link between classical IQ testing and biological inquiries such as fMRI studies.

Cavernio 06-21-2011 03:49 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
K, so I agree largely with what you've said, which is largely a point I've been trying to make. Yes, if a smart person fails because they can't concentrate for whatever reason, it invalidates the measure. How often to do you think someone performs at full potential all the time though? How can you say that g measures general cognitive ability when you say yourself that there are things can cause g to not be measures of general cognitive ability?

Of course g exists, I don't think I ever said it didn't. I think I started with saying **** g, not g doesn't exist. But to say that g measures general cognitive ability, that's the issue I have. If I've said otherwise I'm taking it back.

Until we correct for things like motivation and concentration for measurements of intelligence, I simply can't say that g measures intelligence.

As to ECT's correlating to g, or even being used as a factor in a formula for g, that's all fine, but what you've quoted, in my eyes, doesn't really change anything I've said. It's neat that they thought of comparing reaction time and movement time, and how we could potentially try to figure out if a person was motivated by performing an fMRI while they're doing the tasks, the paragraph is specifically vague about ECT's. It never says that once measuring controls for things like motivation, and then factoring them out of, say that the results are still correlated to g, much less strongly correlated.

Reincarnate 06-21-2011 04:10 PM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
There are always sources of error in any experiment you perform -- not just a g calculation. It doesn't detract from the nature of what you're testing after you take conflicting variables into account.

Why do you have a problem with g being a measure of general cognitive ability when it's defined as a large variance-explaining entity resultant from a variegated set of cognitive tasks?

You think intelligence needs to factor in motivation and concentration? I don't think that's a very good definition. Intelligence is the ability to quickly gather new information and perform complex tasks. There are certainly sources of error that may conflict with the data-gathering or the performance processes, but that doesn't mean the actual intelligence factor is any less valid. It doesn't make sense to say "Well, I scored low on this test because I didn't really try." Okay, so try. Besides, with so many people and so many trials, g has predictive power and you can be sure that not everyone "was having an off day" when testing. Plenty of people try, and plenty may not perform at capacity. Even so, we see predictive power in g. Things like motivation and concentration are just noise that get filtered out as you increase N. For tough questions, for instance, even if you give someone as much time as they want to solve a problem, if they can't figure it out, they can't figure it out.

Again, it's like saying "Well, to predict the top speed of this car by the type of engine+wheels present, we need to take into account the grogginess levels of the driver and his willingness to accelerate to maximum speed." Those factors don't have any bearing on the actual speed potential of the car, and so it doesn't make sense to say "Until we account for grogginess and willingness, we can't say the type of engine+wheels measures the capable speeds of the car."

Besides, if I am groggy and feeling like poop when taking a highly g-loaded test, I'm going to feel groggy and poopy when performing any other task g is supposed to predict, too. If you get marked with a g level of a particular threshold, that means you're scoring at a level that has been the result of multiple trials in the population such that concentration and motivation have already been shelled out through high N alone. In other words, if you're performing tests and feeling groggy in doing so, obviously you would expect your value to not be indicative of your potential. The solution to that is to actually try.

But if you're not motivated/concentrated when you're testing, that doesn't mean you're not intelligent. It doesn't mean you're necessarily intelligent, either. But you're not testing yourself properly if you're not taking it seriously.

Reach 06-22-2011 09:44 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zageron (Post 3489438)
Well I ended up with 134. Some of those questions just stopped me in my tracks. Specifically the > ones. :(

Would really like to know how they are done eventually.

134 is a very good score. It would qualify you for mensa and puts you above 99% of the population in general reasoning.

There are usually a couple of ways to solve each of the questions, but many of the > ones with the boxes with 4 squares are solved by solving the remainder in each lane and combining them into one and canceling out/combining where logically necessary.

Some of them are more complicated though. The test is much harder than IQtest.dk, because it's designed to measure much higher IQs accurately. IQtest.dk is simply not designed to measure IQs over 130 (it runs into serious ceiling effect, or inability to make statistically significant differentiation between people of different ability).


Quote:

Until we correct for things like motivation and concentration for measurements of intelligence, I simply can't say that g measures intelligence.
I'm not convinced this is a valid argument.


You could also say, for example, that until we correct for things like motivation and concentration for measurements of running speed, I simply can't say that a sprinting event on a track measures running speed.

It doesn't make any sense. Of course we accept that some major correlate of running speed, i.e. a sprinting event, measures how fast you can run. We also accept that some people run faster than others. We don't even need to think about it. We also intuitively know that your speed in a sprinting event is highly correlated with your speed in other events, and your 'general' fitness, or 'g'Fit (which in turn, is a wide reaching predictor of your running speed in any event!).

What then, is the big deal with it comes to IQ tests? It's the exact same thing...


Quote:

For tough questions, for instance, even if you give someone as much time as they want to solve a problem, if they can't figure it out, they can't figure it out.
This is essentially the essence of high range tests like the Titan test, and as much as I'm not convinced it beats or even matches standard psychometric measures of intelligence in terms of validity, it does have very high correlation with standard IQ tests...

It's just backed up too much by data. Beyond a point, studies have shown there is a near zero correlation between time spent and score on extremely high difficulty questions, because a person of insufficient intellect will *never* solve it given even an indefinite amount of time (or they will solve it incorrectly).

This is a huge punch to the nuts for the 'concentration' hypothesis, since I would hypothesize that if concentration and motivation were serious factors to consider when measuring intelligence, dumber people would be able to solve hard questions correctly given enough time and there would be a strong correlation between time spent and score on difficult tests.

It also makes sense intuitively. Take someone with MR for example; we never expect them to start doing higher level maths, even if they were very motivated and tried their hardest. They simply don't have the capacity to do so. Likewise, why expect someone of average intelligence to be able to perform way above their level if they simply concentrate harder and are more motivated? They too, do not have the capacity.

(For the record, I do think concentration and motivation matter, just not nearly as much as Cavernio does).

(Also, anecdotally, when attempting the Titan test, I found I could either solve the question relatively quickly or was hopelessly lost indefinitely, fumbling around in the dark taking stabs at probably incorrect solutions).

Reincarnate 06-22-2011 10:31 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
I feel like most of the bashing against intelligence metrics are done out of emotional appeal.

Reincarnate 06-22-2011 11:04 AM

Re: Are you insecure about your intelligence?
 
just took iqtest.dk again -- got "over 145" again (slightly unfair since I took this test in the past already), but here are the answers in screenshot form if anyone is curious. Question 39 is lmfao so much harder than the rest to figure out (there's one super-obvious fact that is actually useless, and only once you find the next relevant observation does the final step unravel to the answer). 34 is also tough (imo).


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