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-   -   Is veganism wrong? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=119172)

supermousie 06-8-2011 09:06 AM

Is veganism wrong?
 
For millions of years, early man hunted and killed animals for meat, bones for tools, and hides for shelter. No sympathy was shown to the animals slaughtered, as they could have been the difference between life and starvation. Because of this fight to the top(...?) of the food chain, the human body has adapted to an omnivorous diet, in which meat is a major component of.

Today, here in 2011, animal rights groups such as PETA and the Animal Defense League fight for the "ethical treatment of animals", and if they could, they would try to get the world to stave off their reliance on meat entirely. There is a major factor that would make them want to meet this goal, and it is because millions of animals are being slaughtered to drive the meat industry to feed 'normal' people- that being amplified due to recent controversy surrounding animal cruelty being practiced in farms and whatnot (see pmonibuvdi23ybgewy's thread in CC titled Why so cruel?)

I do understand why people choose to go down the vegan route, but some just go and make a big fuss out of eating what their ancestors have been eating for so long. Instead of protesting and getting in other people's way, staying quiet is a great way of not being like a Pharisee. Most vegans I know are rather jolly reasonable, and they won't drill me with facts and figures as to why the meat pie in my hand is killing me.
I can see where they're coming from- I love animals, they love me. And sometimes I do think the lamb chops on my plate were once cute, little fluffy baby sheep.

And then there are the health issues associated with veganism. Lack of protein, calcium, iiron, zinc and other vitamins and minerals definitely leads to malnutrition unless supplements containing these things are taken. I read somewhere pregnant vegans are at risk of having a malnourished baby, and death can easily result.

Umm. It's actually very late, and I'm not thinking straight. (Hey, that rhymes!) If I contradict myself, seem far too biased (I can even tell in my semi-sozzled state) or I'm not making sense, fear not, for I shall fix this post tomorrow or later this week. I needed to get this off my chest.

In the meanwhile, if you can get the jist of my incoherent hash of a CT post, please, share your views!

Patashu 06-8-2011 09:47 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Here's the huge thing about veganism: Feeding grain to an animal like a cow is hundreds to thousands of times less energy efficient than just eating the grain yourself. If everyone swapped to veganism in a somehow completely successful endeavour the carbon footprint of the Earth would shrink, just like that.

It's not easy to be vegan, though, there are lots of proteins and such that you'll miss out on without a well balanced diet. It's not necessarily possible for everyone.

infinity. 06-8-2011 12:20 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
10% of energy is carried between each trophic level.

vro 06-8-2011 12:48 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Alright, I'm just going to give my honest opinion about this. I believe vegans are just huge attention whores. If you're vegetarian, thats fine, as those people usually only do that for health reasons, but the whole vegan thing is ridiculous. I understand having a love for animals(I think they're adorable), but there's nothing wrong with eating them. Sure, you shouldn't abuse them, but its just a cycle of life to eat them. There are plenty of animals in the animal kingdom who eat other animals, so what's the difference between them and us? After all, we are mammals. Looking past that, as already mentioned, it is extremely hard to be a healthy vegan; you practically have to be rich to get what you need in your body. If you are vegan, fine, I'm not going to hate you or anything, but I do find veganism to be extremely stupid.

darkshark 06-8-2011 02:51 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vro (Post 3482953)
vegans are just huge attention whores.

Stopped reading right there.

The vegan lifestyle does not have to be pushed onto anyone else, it's a personal choice. The people you know are just assholes. It's still perfectly possible to live and stay healthy as a vegan, you may have to take supplements to get what your body needs, and there's nothing wrong with taking supplements.

I do agree with the OP...humans are built as an omnivorous species...but who's to say what percentage of each side of the fence you should be on? Vegan is possibly pushing it a little overboard, though. The benefits of eating things like egg and fish are too great. I've gone through stints of being a vegetarian, not particularly as far as pure vegan because I like dairy too much. Currently I'll eat bird (chicken, turkey) and fish...no other meats at all.

Thatskier 06-8-2011 02:54 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity. (Post 3482941)
10% of energy is carried between each trophic level.


-Claps- Looks like someone passed there 9th grade biology class.


Its fine being a vegan, you just have to make sure you take extra supplements especially protein... great way to get it is through nuts.

alloyus 06-8-2011 03:30 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
So expensive to eat healthy food >.> But if you wanna be a vegan then go for it, it's a personal choice that you yourself make based on your beliefs which doesn't really hurt anyone (there are plenty of other people to buy meat for the meat industry).As long as you're not pushing your beliefs on others, I really don't see a problem with it.

vro 06-8-2011 04:02 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darkshark (Post 3482994)
The vegan lifestyle does not have to be pushed onto anyone else, it's a personal choice. The people you know are just assholes.

I do understand that in the end it is just a personal choice, but its the fact that are are so many vegans who do push it(Example, PETA making a big deal out of it all over the place). I respect people's choices, its no different then the ordeal between gays and straights, but its just the fact that the extreme majority of vegans act like they are higher in society or some crap like that.

irionman 06-8-2011 05:41 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I honestly don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. If someone wants to be vegan, let them, it don't affect you. However, if they start preaching to you, then it's wrong. Personally, I don't like vegans. I think their logic is flawed. But then again, I don't really run into many of them, so I could care less what they eat.

zolaric 06-8-2011 09:12 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I once went to a vegan restaurant not knowing what vegan meant (I actually thought it was related to Vegas). The food did not taste good. I'll be sticking to my chicken. I have nothing against vegans, though.

Patashu 06-8-2011 09:18 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity. (Post 3482941)
10% of energy is carried between each trophic level.

Ah okay, point still stands though, when you think about how many people eat meat that would be a -huge- cut in energy expenditure

Syhto 06-8-2011 11:43 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Well, you don't just not eat animal products when you're vegan, you also usually eat all organic, which means no pesticides or growth hormones. Frankly, I don't see how you could think their 'logic' is 'flawed' because it usually only boils down to a few simple points. 1) They want fresh food with no preservatives, which is undeniably healthier. 2) They have a desire to live in a sustainable way. That means reasonable portions of locally grown food, and less emphasis on meat.

That being said, veganism *could* be considered a fad, but it really isn't. It's just a mesh of vegetarianism and going organic, which are both healthier alternatives to a typical western diet that is chock full of red meat and processed fats, enriched and bleached flours, etc. There are multiple middle men between us and our food that we don't need. The new 'green' movement is all for these home gardens, local farmer's markets, etc. There should be a rise in our food consciousness, because food is medicine. And it is VITAL that you have adequate nutrition.

We have more in common with herbivores than carnivores, and our body thrives READILY on raw fruits, veggies and nuts. It lives just perfectly, even if you don't get protein from flesh, and even if you get below the recommended amount of protein. In fact, I would argue it runs better on a low to medium protein diet. (Not recommended for athletes, although I know PLENTY of vegan athletes that are super trim and muscular.)

Ignore PETA, their meaning is good but they're pushing an old agenda. People aren't going to suddenly start caring about animals, but they may just start caring about themselves again. And that's when this comes in. Veganism can be extreme, but I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures to some. (It really isn't all that hard though.) I've been eating all organic food for awhile now myself, and I definitely promote it.

I'm not vegetarian though, and I'm definitely not vegan. I have a lot of friends and role models that are vegan, and if anything it's a more educated and tactful approach to eating than any other floating around. It's alright to have fatty foods sometimes, your body does like fat, and it does like complex carbs, etc. But we eat that shit way too much. If you aren't eating some raw veggies or fruits everyday you're likely already suffering from vitamin deficiencies. Meat only has a couple of notable vitamins in it, and those can all be found in plants and legumes. As long as you have some protein, iron, calcium, and Vitamin B12 you're pretty much set.

Vegan isn't wrong, it's just a lifestyle. And a damn healthy one. Meat is still good for you of course, but try to cut back on the red meat and eat more fish. If you don't have a lot of time to put into your diet then going vegan probably won't work. You should still eat in a balanced manner. Bam

twitchywindowbreaker 06-9-2011 01:38 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Let's say America is the Heaviest Country in the world One Reason is because there isn't enough Vegans nothing wrong with eating Healthy and not wanting to be a fat blob

MrGiggles 06-9-2011 02:16 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
IS BEING GAY WRONG
IS VEGANISM WRONG
IS SLEEPING ON YOUR SIDE WRONG

Why does CT have the absolute worst thread titles?
Quote:

It's just a mesh of vegetarianism and going organic, which are both healthier alternatives to a typical western diet that is chock full of red meat and processed fats, enriched and bleached flours, etc.
I'd argue with this here, but mostly it's just some lame splitting hairs kinda argument bs so feel free to ignore this

'organic' is a kinda annoying buzzword with a legal definition that varies between places and is not necessarily better or healthier. It generally means that no synthetic shit was used to produce the food, but synthetic shit in food is not inherently bad.

Also, it's perfectly possible and probably very common to produce non-organic produce that adheres perfectly to vegan standards so I wouldn't describe veganism as a mesh of vegetarianism and going organic.

Patashu 06-9-2011 02:21 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
no way is sleeping on your side wrong

sleeping on your back (or worse - your front) is the devil's work

virus003 06-9-2011 02:25 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by twitchywindowbreaker (Post 3483338)
Let's say America is the Heaviest Country in the world One Reason is because there isn't enough Vegans nothing wrong with eating Healthy and not wanting to be a fat blob

yeah definitely doesn't have to do with the population



this post really pissed me off

you think that vegans are vegans because they don't want to be fat, you're wrong, that seems like a slim chance why, most people don't like the slaughtering concept, they've researched it, and they found out what they're eating, they don't want that in their body. i will admit it's a pretty disturbing concept, but ehh i eat meat anyways.


second, quit assuming all meat eaters are ****ing fat, honestly, makes you look like such an ass because you think that, besides, going vegan means you don't get the nutrients that meat give you, it's called protein, ya?

i'm going to assume you're one of those foreign assholes from canada and you think you're country is all pretty pretty perfect. countries have their own problems. why don't you blame the fast food chains for even being created instead of the people who eat it, fast food is in fact addicting

edit: haha you live in the us what a funny thing of you to say, how patriotic

bmah 06-9-2011 02:38 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Your post is also very offensive, virus. The obesity rate in Canada is also climbing, and is unfortunately a similar trend (on a slightly lesser scale) to the US. Instead of devising gross generalities, please make a quality retort for once.

edit: Erm, blame fast food chains because you can't help yourself being addicted to them? lol
In which case, I must praise the vegetarians for having self-control in that respect.

DossarLX ODI 06-9-2011 03:04 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
The only "wrong" thing would be making those slaughtered animals go to waste. Not eating meat doesn't prevent animals from being killed - it even happens in the wild all the time.

You can eat what you want, but if you're at a restaurant and offered some meat, it would be rather disrespectful to just deny it entirely just so you can be consistent and worry about sticking with a no-meat policy. I myself don't eat that much meat; in my view, being a vegan is like saying "oh I will quit this forever and never come back to it". Well congratulations, now you constantly have to worry about it since if you do want to come back to it or there is a situation where it comes again, you'll have to consider your oath. WELP.

bmah 06-9-2011 03:14 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3483368)
You can eat what you want, but if you're at a restaurant and offered some meat, it would be rather disrespectful to just deny it entirely just so you can be consistent and worry about sticking with a no-meat policy.

This is Anthony Bourdain's reasoning as to why he hates vegetarians lol. When it comes to travelling though, I think this is quite important, however.

vro 06-9-2011 03:24 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by twitchywindowbreaker (Post 3483338)
Let's say America is the Heaviest Country in the world One Reason is because there isn't enough Vegans nothing wrong with eating Healthy and not wanting to be a fat blob

See, this is what I mean. If you're vegan, fine, but what gives you the right to say something stupid like this? Not including the reference to foreigners, I'm gonna have to pretty much agree with virus. Eating meat doesn't make you fat; meat gives you protein. What makes you fat? Candy, Cake, Soda, Ice Cream, all the other popular shit in America that tons of people love to eat because, dare I say it, it tastes good. Like I said, if you're vegan, then good for you, its your choice, but quit acting like you are higher in society because of it, because you're not.

Crashfan3 06-9-2011 05:04 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I can't wrap my mind around how anyone could think veganism is "wrong". That doesn't even make sense.

I could argue that it's unhealthy, but it IS possible to get your protein from non-animal sources so that's not entirely true either.

So honestly my two cents is that I'd have to support anyone who is vegetarian/vegan. It's not my personal life choice because I can't go a week without sweet, sweet bacon, but I respect those who choose to shun the power of bacon.

Syhto 06-9-2011 05:43 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
ok, dossar, who is it that needs the respect? er, I guess since this animal is dead I'm 'disrespecting' it because I'm not using it to its full potential by eating it, because it died for me. OK, the animal is dead, you're right. The animal has no sense of needing respect and it never did. It had no say, no choice, and likely no idea. How do you know that cow on your plate didn't want to be cremated? What if on his will he wrote, "w/e you do please just don't eat me!!!" ... Disrespect, give me a break.

If you're vegan and you're doing it for spiritual/health purposes, you're already respecting everything out there. You respect everything because you stay true to your center, rather than make up excuses because you want to indulge.

And giggles, yeah. But if you see at the beginning of my post I said vegans usually choose to eat organic food. And by organic I mean organic as in no harmful chemicals (pesticides etc), GMOs, modified genetics, you know. That has nothing to do with their health benefits, rather another slightly separate matter of principle I find many health conscious vegan types have. That part was coinciding with the 'fad' term... my wording just isn't that specific.

and vro, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link~

~kitty~ 06-9-2011 06:23 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Eating meat is affordable and is easier to gain access to.

DossarLX ODI 06-9-2011 06:26 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Syhto, animals in the wild don't want to be eaten but still get eaten, so I'm not sure where you're trying to get at. Although if you decide to eat it or not, that's your prerogative.

I definitely do support improved conditions of factories though. I think that vegans might have some heat because it's more expensive when you take meat out of your diet (and meat is a food group, haha).

G.S.M 06-9-2011 06:59 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I think most vegans are absolutely ridiculous.

I myself am very healthy and fit (not athlete fit) and I honestly don't see the point of this... I really don't. I eat all kinds of bad food/good food and still find that balance to stay fit and healthy... I find it pointless to go full vegan.

I do agree on not torturing animals though, which is one of the reasons people will go vegan, I assume. A quick death is best for an animal. Why should we throw away what Humans have done since the beginning of Humanity? I find it silly.

also for some reason whenever I think of PETA I think of KKK. I don't know why lol

ps I hate PETA

supermousie 06-9-2011 08:46 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I don't actually mind vegans, but those who push their ideas onto others in an attempt to 'convert' them just really ticks me off. Torturing animals is a big no-no in my book, as is animal rights activist groups. I also think living a vegan lifestyle is inconvenient, expensive, and involves lots of going walkabout in the supermarket looking for vegan products. Hell, earlier today I found some vegan shampoo and I do quote: "No CFCs, SLS, petrochemicals... Bottle derived from corn... Not tested on animals... Vegan friendly... $23.95". I could see from the amount the store stocked, they maybe sold one bottle a MONTH.

@Giggles: I'll break convention next time, ok?
@G.S.M: sig'd.

xXAll-ProXx 06-9-2011 09:15 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
What's vaginasim?

infinity. 06-9-2011 09:32 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3483368)
The only "wrong" thing would be making those slaughtered animals go to waste. Not eating meat doesn't prevent animals from being killed - it even happens in the wild all the time.

You can eat what you want, but if you're at a restaurant and offered some meat, it would be rather disrespectful to just deny it entirely just so you can be consistent and worry about sticking with a no-meat policy. I myself don't eat that much meat; in my view, being a vegan is like saying "oh I will quit this forever and never come back to it". Well congratulations, now you constantly have to worry about it since if you do want to come back to it or there is a situation where it comes again, you'll have to consider your oath. WELP.

pre-requisite: i'm a vegetarian (leaning vegan) of 8 years.

do you know how overused this claim is? before you argue, please know what you're talking about.

animals are slaughtered for the demand of the population. if there were more members who abstained from the practice, what would happen to meat production? obviously, it would decrease.

as for other points, being a vegetarian doesn't help with weight or fitness issues, because one can still eat processed junk and blank starches as much as they want. i can testify for the loss of nutrients and vitamins, too. i have ridiculously levels of protein and iron, because my diet doesn't provide these, and the supplements i take can't fully replace the more natural sources.

there's a lot more to type. if anyone has questions, just ask.

~kitty~ 06-9-2011 01:00 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinity. (Post 3483486)
pre-requisite: i'm a vegetarian (leaning vegan) of 8 years.

do you know how overused this claim is? before you argue, please know what you're talking about.

animals are slaughtered for the demand of the population. if there were more members who abstained from the practice, what would happen to meat production? obviously, it would decrease.

as for other points, being a vegetarian doesn't help with weight or fitness issues, because one can still eat processed junk and blank starches as much as they want. i can testify for the loss of nutrients and vitamins, too. i have ridiculously levels of protein and iron, because my diet doesn't provide these, and the supplements i take can't fully replace the more natural sources.

there's a lot more to type. if anyone has questions, just ask.

Even if people were willing to stop eating meat as much, they would still have to eat a fairly large amount of it in their diet due to costs of other foods. Meat is inexpensive. If I had the choice, I would eat more fruits and I suppose more greens. However, I don't buy my food, and whenever I ask for such things, they're like $3.00 for one snack's worth when $3.00 can buy two meals of meat for a family of 4. My numbers may not be completely accurate, but they do reflect how much choice we really have in what we eat.

Syhto 06-9-2011 02:12 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3483449)
I'm not sure where you're trying to get at.

figured as much

the words are still there if you want to take another whack at it. Sometimes you have to do more than just read the words. Helps to think!! I'm just speaking from experience here and trying to perhaps lay down some thoughts that people hear less often. I don't want to do anything but make you think.

Everyone comes to these conclusions like "wrong" or "stupid" or "pointless", I'm just saying grow up. It isn't that black and white. If you cared, you'd research it and be involved, since you don't, you make haphazard judgments. No no, vegans could never have any depth, vegans are just assholes that want to criticize my meat-eating!!! Well this is NATURE bitches!!!!!

I'm pretty sure they thought harder and longer about switching to veganism than you ever did about eating what your mother puts on your plate.

people be whack

who_cares973 06-9-2011 02:23 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
i drink almond milk instead of regular milk. does that, like, make me part vegan or something? if so is there an option for that when filling out applications?

supermousie 06-9-2011 11:40 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xXAll-ProXx (Post 3483479)
What's vaginaism?

Remember, this is CT...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syhto (Post 3483579)
Sometimes you have to do more than just read the words. Helps to think!!
Everyone comes to these conclusions like "wrong" or "stupid" or "pointless", I'm just saying grow up. It isn't that black and white. If you cared, you'd research it and be involved, since you don't, you make haphazard judgments. No no, vegans could never have any depth, vegans are just assholes that want to criticize my meat-eating!!! Well this is NATURE bitches!!!!!

Calm your farm.

Cavernio 06-10-2011 12:41 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I have no idea where people get the idea that eating vegan is expensive. Meat is far more expensive than meat alternatives like beans and lentils. Dairy is also hugely expensive, and the soy milk at my stores cost the same as cow milk. Pre-prepared food products, which also largely contain mean and dairy, are pretty expensive too. Seafood is also hugely expensive. I could not argue more that being vegan is cheaper than eating 'regularly'. If you never cook for yourself, being vegan would be more expensive than not, but that is the only way it would be so.

I will concede that it can be a pain in the ass though, reading labels and stuff. But, there is a learning curve to this too. You're going to start buying those products you know you like that are vegan, and you will know pretty quickly what animal by-products name's are called. You will also find that many products you already like and enjoy, are already vegan. Things like Oreo's are vegan and delicious, yet I wonder how many people would avoid them if they advertised that they are vegan? If you were to switch to veganism, after a couple months, it would not be the huge pain that it was at the start.

It is easy to get complete protein from a vegan diet. While individual things like vegetables and grains often aren't complete in the variety of protein they offer, you will not have a problem as long as you don't, say, eat only rice or something. The pure amount of protein to stay healthy is hugely over-rated. And the only nutrient that all vegans need to take is B12. Besides which, most people are advised to take a multi-vitamin everyday, vegan or not.

Being vegan and having someone talk about it and ask you why you eat meat, is not the same as lording it over you. To try and convince you to be vegan is NOT the same thing as having someone tell you to not be gay, not in the least.

Having sex with someone of your sex directly hurts no one.
Eating meat hurts animals.
End of argument.

The fact that people once used to survive largely on meat is irrelevant to any logical discussion of veganism (as are those people who are vegan because the bible tells them so...yes, those people exist.) Most farmed animals are raised in appalling conditions. Most people would not choose to work in this industry, but because it is easy to ignore what is essentially animal torture, most people eat meat. This is why groups like PETA are still around. Funny thing is, is that meat is only inexpensive because of the inhumane practices to raising it.

To eat meat is only easy because that's the societal norm. It would be just as easy for people to not eat meat if the norm were for meat to not be eaten, for supermarkets to have pre-prepared vegan foods that taste good.

I am not vegan, but I will only eat meat from the local farmer's market from people who advertise decent living conditions for their animals. I eat beef and drink milk and eat non-battery eggs and so far eat all seafood. I occasionally will eat other meat products because I like meat and because when my bf is eating his stupid pogo, I want a bite.

It is better to try and fail at veganism or vegetarianism than to not bother because you know you will fail at some point. Again, the more people who become vegan, the easier it will be to be vegan.

There is absolutely no reason that veganism or vegetarianism is wrong. Personally, ethically, it is clearly more ethical to not factory farm animals. Environmentally, to not farm any animals is by far the best choice for humanity.

ELRayford 06-10-2011 12:43 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Veganism is fine as long as u can have bacon with it.

Cavernio 06-10-2011 01:02 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vro (Post 3482953)
Alright, I'm just going to give my honest opinion about this. I believe vegans are just huge attention whores. If you're vegetarian, thats fine, as those people usually only do that for health reasons, but the whole vegan thing is ridiculous. I understand having a love for animals(I think they're adorable), but there's nothing wrong with eating them. Sure, you shouldn't abuse them, but its just a cycle of life to eat them. There are plenty of animals in the animal kingdom who eat other animals, so what's the difference between them and us? After all, we are mammals. Looking past that, as already mentioned, it is extremely hard to be a healthy vegan; you practically have to be rich to get what you need in your body. If you are vegan, fine, I'm not going to hate you or anything, but I do find veganism to be extremely stupid.

You concede that you love animals, and you shouldn't abuse them, but then you say that veganism is stupid. Just because it is part of most human's life cycles to eat meat, does not mean it has to be. Your argument for thinking vegetarianism is stupid is analogous to saying something like, "Well, lots of people in Africa commit genocide, therefore its perfectly fine for me to commit murder in the US."

If you really think its wrong to abuse animals too, you should by no means be eating most meats. Seriously, pigs in factory farms die from the noxious fumes of their own shit. Egg-laying chickens barely live a year before they loose all their feathers from being jammed so badly into cages that they can't even turn around. And all that so that your egg can cost you 25 cents instead of 80 cents.

Humans do not need meat to stay healthy, and the fact that we do or the fact that we evolved eating it are by no means proof that we do.

And you can't get mad at me for preaching here, as if I'm shoving this down your throat. I didn't make the thread.

Cavernio 06-10-2011 01:03 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
**** I miss bacon :-(

G.S.M 06-10-2011 01:32 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I eat pigs raw. Delicious! I just gnaw on the bones after I'm done. mmmmmmmm good.

ELRayford 06-10-2011 01:36 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3484232)
**** I miss bacon :-(

http://www.food.com/recipe/vegan-bacon-148899

Don't let veganism stop you from enjoying bacon! MMMMM TOFU.

ffraxis 06-10-2011 08:34 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
veganism is not right considering that it is a personal life style choice; it becomes wrong in the eyes of people who cannot handle conflicting perspectives, and when people try to force veganism.

really subjective.

supermousie 06-10-2011 11:43 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3484230)
If you really think its wrong to abuse animals too, you should by no means be eating most meats. Seriously, pigs in factory farms die from the noxious fumes of their own shit. Egg-laying chickens barely live a year before they loose all their feathers from being jammed so badly into cages that they can't even turn around.

Those are probably the more extreme examples of animal cruelty...

Quote:

Humans do not need meat to stay healthy, and the fact that we do or the fact that we evolved eating it are by no means proof that we do.
Err, yes we do, especially if "Sweet, sweet bacon" is involved. Without meat we'd still be in the trees, and there'd be no such thing as tofu, let alone a modern society.
Quote:

...as if I'm shoving this down your throat. I didn't make the thread.
That's what he said, and creating this thread wasn't for opportunistic people to 'preach' about vegan/vegetarianism, but more for discussing the factors of veganism.

The points you raised are (mostly) good, as to why vegans would do what they do, but personally, I think the pros outweigh the cons being an omnivore.

My God, what have I done? Veganism can be so wrong yet be so correct on SO MANY GODDAMN LEVELS!

@ElRayford: That tofu bacon looks f***ing dirty xD

vro 06-10-2011 11:50 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I'm getting tired of trying to argue in this thread. Whenever posts of mine are quoted, certain points I make are always completely ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3484230)
Your argument for thinking vegetarianism is stupid... If you really think its wrong to abuse animals too, you should by no means be eating most meats. Seriously, pigs in factory farms die from the noxious fumes of their own shit. Egg-laying chickens barely live a year before they loose all their feathers from being jammed so badly into cages that they can't even turn around. And all that so that your egg can cost you 25 cents instead of 80 cents...And you can't get mad at me for preaching here, as if I'm shoving this down your throat. I didn't make the thread.

If you look at the post you quoted from me, I clearly say...

Quote:

Originally Posted by vro (Post 3482953)
If you're vegetarian, thats fine.

As far as the way animals are treated in factories and farms, I can see your argument, really, I can. And I agree that the way they are killed is a pretty sad fact in today's society. But, in the end, they die anyway, right? Now then, you could argue that any living being's destiny is to die someday, but these animals that are killed for their meat are destined to be killed. Since their lives exist for this sole reason, does it really matter if they are killed nicely or not-so-nice? I would prefer if animals could be killed in a more "humane" way, but things like PETA aren't going to change that. Besides, have you ever lived in the wild? Animals like bears and wolves don't instantly kill their prey if they don't want to. Hell, they can end up torturing them for hours. But we don't make a big deal out of that, do we?

Here is the last point I want to make, which I'll start with this quote from an earlier post of mine:

Quote:

Originally Posted by vro (Post 3482953)
If you are vegan, fine, I'm not going to hate you or anything, but I do find veganism to be extremely stupid.

Now then, let me explain what I mean by this in more detail. I agree that veganism is a choice, and there isn't a right or wrong answer to whether or not it is okay. Thus, if YOU are vegan, thats fine! I'm not gonna think of you as a bad person just because you're vegan(but if you shove it down my throat, then my opinion of you will go for the worse.) However, I would never want to be vegan, so I PERSONALLY find it to be stupid for ME. I've said this before and I'll say it again; its like the ordeal with gay people. Am I gay? No. Would I ever be gay? No, I would personally find that to be disgusting. Do I think you're disgusting if you're gay? No, some of my best friends are gay. Now then, I didn't say that to start some argument of whether you're born with it or if its choice, but the point I'm trying to make is that just because I PERSONALLY find something to be revolting doesn't necesarilly mean I find someone else to be revolting just because they decide to do it. And Syhto, calm the hell down. There is nothing wrong with you trying to state your points and opinions, thats what this forum is for. However, there is no need to act like everyone else who doesn't agree with you is a complete retard, its a bit ridiculous.

Syhto 06-11-2011 12:22 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
no. i am calm, i just like using exclamation points. the feigned anger is supposed to help get my point across. but obviously people want to keep dancing around that so nvm. wish actual info could be discussed, rather than the same tired judgments that float around with little thought put into them. w/e. I just think if you're going to post in critical thinking you should think critically about the subject and have something to bring to the table. but that's in an ideal world and this is ffr, so what am I even typing for

supermousie 06-11-2011 12:43 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
You answered your own question.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Syhto (Post 3484735)
that's in an ideal world and this is ffr, so what am I even typing for

U mad?

poleaxe 06-11-2011 05:01 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I eat meat more than probably any other food group and I am healthy... Want to know how? I don't eat tons of sweets and I EXERCISE! So if its about being healthy and fit then just exercise you lazy twits.

If it's about the animals being killed, well, I'm sorry. Sure it would be nice if the farms and factories would stop torturing animals... that would be great and I'm all for it, but, it wont happen just because you go vegan. I'm pretty sure you would have a very difficult time converting enough people into vegetarians or vegans to stop it from happening.

Humans are supposed to eat meat by nature. Vegans and vegetarians choose not to. I respect that and I wont bother you over it. For Pete's sake though, give me the same respect. Way too often vegans and vegetarians think they are better than someone because they want to eat meat. Then they get pushy and rude about it saying that the person is wrong for doing so. SHOVE OFF!

To answer the question of the thread... No, being vegan is not wrong, it is just in my opinion unnecessary.

Cavernio 06-11-2011 08:10 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
That humans needed to eat meat to survive back then does not mean that we do now. That is the only point I was making.

Funny that I am 'preaching' veganism, when I am not vegan or even vegetarian. You started a thread, yet as soon as there is discussion that may make argument, when someone opposes your view, you call it preaching. Just because the only factors I find are 'pros' to not being vegan/vegetarian are that it is easy and tasty does not mean I do not see those sides to the argument. They just happen to be, well, ignoble reasons to eat meat.

I am not going to touch the health issue with a 10 foot pole besides the fact that people can live as vegetarian and even vegans their whole lives.

I furthermore have not complained so much about animal deaths in eating the animals, but rather, how the live. Pigs dying to fumes, I'm assuming that's not normal. However, egg-laying chickens being stuffed into cages is totally normal, and any egg you buy that does not say free range or free run or organic means those chickens entire lives were to live in that cage, no room to turn around, where they essentially peck each other to death, even with trimmed beaks.
I am not vegetarian myself because I don't have issue with us raising animals and then eating them, or even killing them, or even killing them in a particularly painful way. It is the animal's life that matters to me. Even though we decided to bring that animal into being, is gruesome to then force that animal into a life of cruelty. You buy and eat tortured animals 99% of the time unless it is otherwise said, because the norm is to have factory farmed animals, because it is cheap.
If you want to eat meat, fine. But don't say that the animals you eat are by and large treated well. If you want people to stop talking to you about what you eat, then accept the fact that animals we raise are treated like shit and you, yes you, are partly responsible for that if you buy that food.
I don't care that you don't call me stupid. I care that you think veganism is stupid. That is why I am arguing for it.
Furthermore, again, the ecological value of not raising animals to eat is huge. If the human population is going to grow much more, its going to come down to giving land and food to cows or people.

Aldentron 06-15-2011 10:58 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I attended my friend's vegan potluck birthday party last night and the food was great. This movie came up in conversation, and it covers the health issues that come with eating meat. I haven't seen it yet but I would like to, and the trailer makes it seem like it would answer a lot of questions posed about the vegan diet vs. omnivore diet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ijukNzlUg

Note to everyone who doesn't want to be preached to: My friends told me that this movie does not say the word "vegan," but only "plant-based diets." Please look past any preconceptions you have about food industry documentaries before you judge.

And now for my replies to everything in this thread so far:
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3483368)
You can eat what you want, but if you're at a restaurant and offered some meat, it would be rather disrespectful to just deny it entirely just so you can be consistent and worry about sticking with a no-meat policy.

I don't really care about respect for other's cooking when it comes to my diet. If some one put a gun on my plate would it be disrespectful to deny it? I know that's rather an exaggeration of your point and I shouldn't really have used THAT example, but really, why should it be disrespectful of me to not want to eat ANYTHING? I'd rather not be cooked for than be cooked something I do not wish to eat. I don't think I've EVER been put in a position where I had to eat something just for the sake of respect, anyways.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Syhto (Post 3483304)
2) They have a desire to live in a sustainable way. That means reasonable portions of locally grown food, and less emphasis on meat.

This is the biggest thing for me. The meat industry is NOT sustainable. You can grow tomatoes in your own backyard, but you can't raise and slaughter a cow there (unless you live out in a rural area, I suppose you would have to have some equipment too.) At the same time, the meat industry provides jobs for something that isn't even close to entirely necessary, making an economy based on things we don't really need.

Quote:

Meat only has a couple of notable vitamins in it, and those can all be found in plants and legumes. As long as you have some protein, iron, calcium, and Vitamin B12 you're pretty much set.
For protein peanut butter works wonders, spinach has iron in it, as well as kale (form of cabbage) that also has a significant amount of calcium. On the websites I looked at, there were no vegan sources of B12, but there are, of course, dietary supplements for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vro (Post 3483050)
but its just the fact that the extreme majority of vegans act like they are higher in society or some crap like that.

This is where I have to pull the bullshit card. You're making a sweeping generalization that is most likely biased. Don't let the world's most outspoken animal right's group ruin the reputation of millions of people. More than half of my friends are vegan and I've never been preached to about my diet for eating meat. The only thing that even comes close is that they call me a blood-mouth, and I could care less about being called such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syhto (Post 3483579)
If you cared, you'd research it and be involved, since you don't, you make haphazard judgments.

I'm pretty sure they thought harder and longer about switching to veganism than you ever did about eating what your mother puts on your plate.

A very good point. I once went on a vegetarian stint for 4 years, and that was just because I was a picky eater. Without doing any actual research, there was no real reason not to eat meat. Just do your own research and avoid speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3483555)
Meat is inexpensive. If I had the choice, I would eat more fruits and I suppose more greens. However, I don't buy my food, and whenever I ask for such things, they're like $3.00 for one snack's worth when $3.00 can buy two meals of meat for a family of 4. My numbers may not be completely accurate, but they do reflect how much choice we really have in what we eat.

I think your argument is based on local economy. The more meat is transported, the more it is going to cost on the shelf at the store. If meat is cheaper than fruits and vegetables, then you must not live closer to slaughterhouses than farms. Or you could just not do your own shopping, who knows. I live in Texas which produces a whole HELL of a lot of meat, and I have never seen ground chuck beef cost less than strawberries. Just saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by supermousie (Post 3483468)
Hell, earlier today I found some vegan shampoo and I do quote: "No CFCs, SLS, petrochemicals... Bottle derived from corn... Not tested on animals... Vegan friendly... $23.95". I could see from the amount the store stocked, they maybe sold one bottle a MONTH.

Vegans know where to shop, because they've been doing it for a while. You probably don't shop there, because you're not vegan. Whatever store you were at probably doesn't focus much on vegan goods.


Quote:

Originally Posted by poleaxe (Post 3485073)
Humans are supposed to eat meat by nature.

What exactly leads you to believe that humans are SUPPOSED to eat meat? Just because we've been doing it for a long time doesn't mean that's how it always has been. This is the most over-used and inaccurate point that gets used in this sort of conversation, people telling each other what is "natural" like they really have any idea. There are regions of Asia where the majority is vegan and it has been like that for as long as anyone can remember. If you ask me, building slaughterhouses and giant cow pens to mass-produce meat isn't natural.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vro (Post 3484714)
But, in the end, they die anyway, right?...Since their lives exist for this sole reason, does it really matter if they are killed nicely or not-so-nice? I would prefer if animals could be killed in a more "humane" way,

You're ignoring the bull in the china shop, as they say. The issue is not HOW animals should be slaughtered, it is that animals ARE slaughtered. Also, if there's a "humane" way of killing things, then I don't want to be "humane."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3484218)
The pure amount of protein to stay healthy is hugely over-rated.

And shockingly so. I have a few friends that are into body building, and I looked at their stock of whey protein powder. The package said (and not on a Nutrition Facts table,) that they were supposed to be taking in 160g of protein a day. These guys will now go on living their lives believing that they're supposed to take 110 more grams of protein a day than they're supposed to, whether they work out or not, just because of the packaging on this product. Also because they don't care to do their own research. Which is the status-quo of society, I've come to believe.

I back everything that Syhto and Cavernio have said, people really should do their own research on nutrition and take back their bodies. Also Syhto's pretty calm, if anyone's expressed any anger in this thread it's the people who "don't like veganism being shoved down their throats by that god-damned PETA"

G.S.M 06-15-2011 08:07 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldentron (Post 3487136)
if anyone's expressed any anger in this thread it's the people who "don't like veganism being shoved down their throats by that god-damned PETA"

um, I think its more of that fact that PETA is fking stupid, not just because of that.

Cavernio 06-15-2011 09:23 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Here here Aldentron! Even more for the animal's rights than I am.

bmah 06-15-2011 10:35 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldentron (Post 3487136)
I don't really care about respect for other's cooking when it comes to my diet. If some one put a gun on my plate would it be disrespectful to deny it? I know that's rather an exaggeration of your point and I shouldn't really have used THAT example, but really, why should it be disrespectful of me to not want to eat ANYTHING? I'd rather not be cooked for than be cooked something I do not wish to eat. I don't think I've EVER been put in a position where I had to eat something just for the sake of respect, anyways.

I respectfully disagree.

Certain times, especially during special occasions when you're not the host, or even moreso when you visit someone in another country with different customs, priority should be respecting the people serving you because by not doing so you are disrespecting their culture. When comparing culture vs making a statement against practices of the meat industry, I think that culture certainly comes first. So if you are a guest in an unfamiliar/new place, eating what they offer you* shows that you can respect their culture and hospitality in a unselfish manner. Making a decision based singularly on your own belief while disregarding an entire culture is not the way to go.

*different from eating what you choose on a menu yourself
In a setting where you eat with people you know, or in a public restaurant where waiters/waitresses can understand the need to respect their customers, they would understand your needs and beliefs more easily. Not to mention that in these settings, you most likely can choose what you want to eat.

stargroup100 06-15-2011 11:17 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I was going to write a serious reply about my opinions on this topic, but they just seemed so trite and only really encompassed a handful of viable ways to look at the issue. Then I read all of your responses and I just lost all desire to type anything at all.

It's quite clear that everyone who posted in this thread is in some way passionate to a topic pertaining to this subject, but I simply can't enter a discussion chock full of fallacies and hasty generalizations.

Can this community please learn how to rationally respond to an argument so I can actually say something meaningful and have it be taken seriously and fairly? (Obviously this doesn't refer to everyone but my point is pretty straightforward.)

Aldentron 06-15-2011 11:29 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3487546)
I respectfully disagree.

Certain times, especially during special occasions when you're not the host, or even moreso when you visit someone in another country with different customs, priority should be respecting the people serving you because by not doing so you are disrespecting their culture.

Not that I am an international tourist often in the least, but in this day and age when there are so many more things to worry about, I don't see any reason to cater to ancient standards. Yes, I can appreciate their history and etc., but civilization is so far advanced now that being offended over what you eat is childish. This is just my opinion, I can also reason with the idea that you SHOULD respect other cultures, but not as much.

Also, what stargroup100 said.

bmah 06-15-2011 11:31 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I guess you aren't much of a traveller, so it's hard to see it from that way. You really just have to go places and see for yourself, because when you're not in those situations, it's really easy to envision one's idea of what is "reasonable". All I can say is that you missed the point. It's not going back to "archaic standards". It's having some respect and dignity.

Take it as you wish, however.

@Aldentron below: ok, point taken. :)

Aldentron 06-16-2011 12:01 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3487584)
I guess you aren't much of a traveller, so it's hard to see it from that way. You really just have to go places and see for yourself, because when you're not in those situations, it's really easy to envision one's idea of what is "reasonable". All I can say is that you missed the point. It's not going back to "archaic standards". It's having some respect and dignity.

Take it as you wish, however.

You are correct, I am not much of a traveler, and food is very important in some places, but because I don't travel much, this is all irrelevant to me. That was my point. I do understand yours, like I said.

I know that makes me seem insensitive, but I feel a much stronger attachment to where I live as opposed to far-away places, and will always favor change I can see over change I can only hear about.

Cavernio 06-17-2011 05:25 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
"priority should be respecting the people serving you because by not doing so you are disrespecting their culture. When comparing culture vs making a statement against practices of the meat industry, I think that culture certainly comes first."

Let me first say that we will both be arguing that one value is higher than another, so no responding with 'but now you're not considering my value'. You are saying that to respect a culture is more important than making a statement about the practicies of the meat industry.
However, if you put yourself into a vegetarian's or vegan's shoes, they are not merely making a 'statement'. They are saving a life, or half a life, or whatever amount of meat they refuse, as well as making a statement. Surely we can agree that 'saving a life' is clearly a higher moral than respect.

It is sad how true your argument is though. I don't refuse meat from my bf's family, and they have no idea my switch to eating only animals that I feel have had an untortured life, because it would be awkward to say so, and I seem to have a stance on the whole issue that most people don't share, or at least don't practice. (Ideally, I'd be vegan purely for ecological reasons, but I am weak.)

It really is sad that societal expectations can trump other values, sad how much power they hold over us, regardless of logic, or a higher morality someone may strive for.

Stargroup: Pretend we are all stupid and spell it out for us nonetheless. You disagree with many things, yet expect us to change without telling us what it is we are doing wrong. Pleading people to change without asking people how to change is, well, stupid.

bmah 06-17-2011 05:33 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
That's probably because a lot of people see vegans as making a statement as opposed to being indirect lifesavers. Saving animals? Regardless, I'd put priority over saving humans, if you want to put it in that light.

hashishin0420 07-2-2011 08:40 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I'm all for the message they're trying to put out. I think the government should crack down on the more cruel practices in the agricultural sector. However, I don't think meat-eating itself is immoral, and especially not the consumption of milk and honey. Also, I think if it's not practiced very carefully and with lots of knowlede of nutrition beforehand, malnutrition is very likely to occur.

Emithith 07-2-2011 09:48 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Gah, I tried to read everything in this thread but my brain feels like it's gonna explode if I try to read any more of these huge posts. lol

K, There is ONE reason I see that I think EVERYONE should focus on.
Sustainability.

It takes SO much to produce a cow, when we could be using the feed from the cows (which would be like 8x the amount of meat, or so I have heard) to make our meal. I eat meat. I love meat. But there is something to say about how heavy a toll it is on our environment.

1st, it takes alot of methane to overfeed these bulls that fart and produce the methane. 2nd, it takes ENERGY to kill the cows. 3rdly, the shipping that happens, it takes alot of fuel to transfer the meat to stores.

I kinda want to also point out the trauma these cows go through before they get slaughtered. They have to hear their brethren die. They get scared. Believe it or not, these animals have feelings. A part of me wants to say: "Well, they weren't gonna live a long life anyway, so who cares?"

I also want to point out that if we just STOPPED the meat production line these cows would run rampant throughout the lands. They are unable to protect themselves from predators anyway.

Eat meat, or don't. But bear these in mind.

P.S. Cows came from the mighty Aurochs I have heard. Those things are scary. :S
P.S.S. Where the hell is Reach in this thread?

Emo_Saur_ 07-2-2011 10:25 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Vegans debate with other vegan on Honey, derp. I think they're just ill-informed. PETA has been caught filming videos in other countries trying to pass them as American plants. So, I refuse to be vegan because I am a heartless being when it comes to food.

Stewie7Griffin 07-2-2011 11:12 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darkshark (Post 3482994)
The vegan lifestyle does not have to be pushed onto anyone else, it's a personal choice.

To be quite honest, at least how I see it anyways, veganism is merely a statement. It'd be kind of pointless to be vegan and not push your views onto others, as I feel people only do it to make a point (that I think is stupid all in all).

SKG_Scintill 07-3-2011 04:51 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Personally, I don't believe in veganism

ScylaX 07-3-2011 09:30 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Veganism comes from an anthropomorphization of the existence of animals. I'm not talking about the food but about the the ethics of veganism and I have to say I fully disagree. Of course, even our culture makes us proximate to many animals and some may be more naturalists that other, but I think not eating meat or anything related to exploitation of the nutritional potential of animals is a giant waste and makes any diet more difficult to manage than usual.

I try to not write in arguments as "but animals kills each other so it's okay !!" (which is the proof animals have no ethics and that vegans almost incorporate it, any being that is born always had to prepare its life to be killed for alimentary purpose but saying «it's normal for an animal to be killed and eaten» is making a new anthropomorphism, non-human animals just don't have any thinking on their own existence - I'm not a zoologist to assert that though) or «we were made to eat meat so we must do it» (because it's an even more stupid assertion) because overused arguments are rarely the best ones. Yet again, anyone is FREE to eat what he wants and it's even more stupid to say "its dumb 2 do that lol xd", sometime it's something than more of an opinion, even if you convince some people, they will not change opinion because it's solely based on "feelings" and I hardly think you can make something for people that personally dislike the fact of eating organic-living-beings.

So of course I'll dislike a vegan that will come to me and try to CONVINCE me to stop eating meat for any reason he has, I like it and I'm not upset about eating some animals, it's a matter of habit and culture and somebody that does that makes me say that guy didn't even understood his own point.On the other hand, I have some cousins that are vegetarians and some of the things they eat are damn delicious to me, it may look weird or even some ingredients seem strange but, hey, what's the point of disliking something that looks "different" anyway, more people should try it out at least one time in their life, it's probably something you'd enjoy eating on a regular basis

Cavernio 07-3-2011 10:31 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
"That's probably because a lot of people see vegans as making a statement as opposed to being indirect lifesavers. Saving animals? Regardless, I'd put priority over saving humans, if you want to put it in that light"

Well what the **** other statement would they be making?

That I should put effort into saving humans 'instead' is like, the worst argument anyone could use, ever. It can be used against or for any person who tries to do something moral. There is always going to be something more moral that someone could be spending their time doing. But as it, it is particularly bad in this case, because the few hours it's taken me to determine what foods are vegan/vegetarian, it's not like I would have been saving dying kids or something if I hadn't. Most people who choose to be vegan aren't exactly making a choice between feeding their kids some pork or else their kids die, or will ever be making a decision like that. Furthermore, the whole thing has made me think about what I eat overall and so includes things like buying fair trade coffee and chocolate. And the entire ecological aspect includes people as well as animals.

"Veganism comes from an anthropomorphization of the existence of animals. I'm not talking about the food but about the the ethics of veganism and I have to say I fully disagree."

So you think that humans are the only things to have minds, or at the very least, minds enough that they can experience anything close to what a human experiences. I suggest you go click Reincarnate's link in the free will thread...anthropomorphization is hardly dumb.

ScylaX 07-3-2011 11:07 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
It's why I said later that I wasn't a zoologist to assert that (strategy, my friend). Beside, I said I disagreed with that, not that I found that dumb so uuh (i'll dévelop my answer later because I'm on iPod right now and must sleep a little but that topic is really interesting and I want to discuss that point on deeper explanations)

bmah 07-4-2011 12:52 AM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
I'm sorry to hear you're shocked that I disagree with you, Caverio, but what can I say? I simply disagree and I know many others will say the same with very similar reasons. I personally think your reasoning is just as lame as you think mine is. I'm happy to hear that your eating habits makes you more aware of healthy lifestyle choices, but that's pretty much all you're saying right now. Veganism as you said doesn't involve decisions on whether you're siding with saving the human race or not. I'm just making a contrast, and as common as it sounds, is a perfectly legitimate reason why many do not choose to be a vegan - eating a certain way to save the life of a cow isn't a part of many people's moral compasses. To many, it seems silly, while to others, that reason is as justified as it gets.

Personally, I'll have to agree with ScylaX in that we create such habits because our brains allow us to become emotionally attached to the cows. It doesn't mean that "humans are the only things to have minds". But even that thought doesn't compell me to become any more compassionate. I'm not going to shed a tear. Cows are food to me, and to many others it's their lifestyles. You don't need to complicate it more than that. And for those that disagree, let them be. As people have already said, I'm fine with people being vegans. I just disagree.

AquaTeen 07-11-2011 08:27 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Veganism is not wrong. Veganism is just a healthy lifestyle that people choose I mean it's your body you make the decision what you put into it... easy as that.

ScylaX 07-11-2011 09:04 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
Okay so I'm in an arguing mood right now
Quote:

So you think that humans are the only things to have minds, or at the very least, minds enough that they can experience anything close to what a human experiences. I suggest you go click Reincarnate's link in the free will thread...anthropomorphization is hardly dumb.
I wasn't talking of that type of anthropomorphization, more like something you feel the possible pain of the animal so much that you feel like you were at its place. I talk about considering, at some approximative points, that the animal is your equal on the scale of the society ; of course, when you kill an animal, you will not just kill it in the most savage way possible - even if there would not be difference on the matter of energy spent to kill - because as an human you still have ethics and animals are still living beings to you, it doesn't matter if they're perfectly aware of themselves and can experience something that comes close to human empirism, you don't measure that kind of metric when you're feeling close to another organic living being.
However as "human" an animal could seem, it's still a living being you'll eat for nutritive purpose. And I assume veganists just don't want to harm them because they feel like these animals are as human as they are at some point.

Damn. Really. I should study linguistic more because I feel like there is a huge semantic gap between what you mean and what I mean when we're talking about anthropomorphization

Cavernio 07-12-2011 02:02 PM

Re: Is veganism wrong?
 
"And I assume veganists just don't want to harm them because they feel like these animals are as human as they are at some point."

But even if its not even close to equal as a human, why does that mean I should eat it if I can be just as healthy without eating it?

I mean, clearly most vegans don't even have to feel like the animal is like a human, when most people (vegans included), don't get to have any sort of relationship with any animal they have eaten. And even the ones who have will use logic to dictate the fact that they don't want to eat other animals. There's a difference between not wanting to eat your pets and not eating animals, and it seems odd to assume that vegans all just feel as close/bad about animals as they would their pets. That's, like, impossible for me to even do. (I have a hard enough time giving a care about people who die overseas from hunger, doesn't mean I don't think it's tragic that they do, or think that they should die of hunger or something.) A fisherman who throws back their fish instead of eating them because they feel bad for the fish flopping around, seems to be the type of person you're talking about. Not all vegans are like that fisher.

Besides which, all emotional reasoning to not eat meat isn't exactly dumb either. Because if you say that to get emotional about animals, how can you say it's any less dumb to get emotional over people? Because humans clearly are all the same? Outside of emotion, logic and science dictates that another person is like me, and logic and science dictates that animals can also experience similar things as me. Unless you are a solipsist, the anthropomorphic argument is totally valid for any reasons to not eat any animal that has a brain.

"Veganism as you said doesn't involve decisions on whether you're siding with saving the human race or not."
That depends on how badly the planet's going to become unlivable due to humanity's raping of the earth, again, because we have much less ecological impact when you don't eat animals.

But even outside that, there's the reason of why you would ignore your emotional reaction anyways? Even if your emotional and logical reaction is wrong, your decision to be vegan won't hurt anyone or anything in any meaningful way, (such things as someone taking offense at it is not very meaningful, and can be controlled by the individual taking offense.)

I think there's plenty of dumb reasons people are vegan, reasons like the bible/religion tells them so, its unnatural for us to eat meat, people shouldn't ever dictate what happens to animals (this one actually seems less dumb to me, except that your mere existence means you're affecting other animals. Even if you lived in the wild off of only plants, you'd still be stepping on insects, eating the berries a bear would eat, killing another animal's habitat, etc.)

I mean, the only given reasons to actually eat meat given are 1) they think it's cheaper to eat meat (which I think it totally backwards, its cheaper to be vegan) and 2) it takes effort to be informed enough to actually buy vegan-only things. The only real argument has been centered around the fact that there's no reason to not eat meat. Which is basically people ignoring their emotions and logic in favor of their stomach.


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