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~kitty~ 03-28-2011 09:41 PM

Communism is bad?
 
My dad and his friend try to tell me that Communism is bad. They say "it's bad because many millions die under the Communist rule, lots of their own people, and it's a God-denying type of government, and supports dictatorship." They talk about how corrupt it is, and how it's evil and there are no human rights in Communist countries.

Apparently, anyone who uses the word "Imperialism" in conversation, or in politics, is a Communist, or extreme leftist. Someone tell me exactly what this is all about?

TheSaxRunner05 03-28-2011 09:49 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Just go read some books about modern history and make your own judgments.

bmah 03-28-2011 09:57 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
I didn't really take your friend's/father's quote seriously as soon as they included "God-denying" as part of their reasoning.

In any case, the idea of communism is good. But the result never turns out as it is originally intended. That refers to the corruption, bureaucracy, etc. you're talking about.

More likely, however, most people misuse the word "communism". Some extreme Americans might say that Sweden or Canada is communist, when really, it's just a slightly lefter leaning capitalistic society. To be truly communist, it's a much longer road to the left than that. I suggest your father/friend don't swing that word carelessly; use the word as is it actually defined.

~kitty~ 03-28-2011 10:01 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3442333)
I didn't really take your friend's/father's quote seriously as soon as they included "God-denying" as part of their reasoning.

In any case, the idea of communism is good. But the result never turns out as it is originally intended. That refers to the corruption, bureaucracy, etc. you're talking about.

More likely, however, most people misuse the word "communism". Some extreme Americans might say that Sweden or Canada is communist, when really, it's just a slightly lefter leaning capitalistic society. To be truly communist, it's a much longer road to the left than that. I suggest your father/friend don't swing that word carelessly; use the word as is it actually defined.


See, my problem is I don't know what the details are of what's actually going on, because both sides are saying the other is lying. Reading about it wont help because one will say the other is just writing with bias to brain-wash the other. My dad would probably say the people in all Communist countries have no human rights and are evil. Someone who supports Communism says that people hate Communism because it takes money from the rich Capitalists and redistributes the wealth to the poor. Then the counter for that is that the people working for the government takes the money that's supposed to be redistributed and leaves the rest of the population in poverty.

bmah 03-28-2011 10:06 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Well then, it's up to you to decide what side to take. Read up on communism and capitalism on wikipedia (for starters), make the assumption that you're not being biased or poisoned by opposing influences, and then make up your mind.

Also, try to relate everyday things/practical aspects in life to the effects of capitalism and communism. Then you can gain an appreciation (or dislike) of these two ideologies. Up to you to decide.

PriestREA 03-28-2011 10:07 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3442317)
My dad and his friend try to tell me that Communism is bad. They say "it's bad because many millions die under the Communist rule, lots of their own people, and it's a God-denying type of government, and supports dictatorship." They talk about how corrupt it is, and how it's evil and there are no human rights in Communist countries.

Apparently, anyone who uses the word "Imperialism" in conversation, or in politics, is a Communist, or extreme leftist. Someone tell me exactly what this is all about?

I used to be quite leftist when it came to politics. However, my stance is still moderately leftist, but I've definitely moved to the right by quite a substantial margin.

Obviously bmah has touched up on this topic, but I just like to give my stance on things. Communism is strictly theory based. It's probably the most sound type of government; again, only in theory. It lacks the foundations when it executes in a country. For example, a doctor vs. a construction worker. The doctor has most likely devoted a large sum of his/her time to achieve a license to practice said profession. A construction worker (no offense if anyone works in this field), requires less in terms of post-secondary education than a doctor. Yet, the construction worker is bound to make the same thing. This leads to internal instability, revolt by the populous and protest for a democratic regime to reign supreme.

~kitty~ 03-28-2011 10:11 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3442344)
Well then, it's up to you to decide what side to take. Read up on communism and capitalism on wikipedia (for starters), make the assumption that you're not being biased or poisoned by opposing influences, and then make up your mind.

Also, try to relate everyday things/practical aspects in life to the effects of capitalism and communism. Then you can gain an appreciation (or dislike) of these two ideologies. Up to you to decide.

These sources kind of do not provide the information I'm looking for. I'm looking for what both sides arguments are, actively, not just these things. I can't form an opinion if I only know the ideals of each Communism and Capitalism. I need to know what actually happens or at least what people think happens. From what I heard, it's not so bad in China. However, China isn't a truly Communist country, due to its open market. I'm not sure what to think, really. To what extent is there individual freedom in the Communist countries? Reading up on them doesn't necessarily give me this information, because there aren't really any "Communist" countries as the ideology wants it be... I guess.

bmah 03-28-2011 10:16 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
That's right; there hasn't been a single country that has worked out according to the true ideals of communism.

For your query, you'd have to do a lot more searching. I mean looking up the statistics of "communist" countries, reading up on documentaries, and so on. I can't really give you an explicit source, because what you decide upon is cumulative.

Maybe you can watch this for a start?

PriestREA 03-28-2011 10:17 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3442353)
These sources kind of do not provide the information I'm looking for. I'm looking for what both sides arguments are, actively, not just these things. I can't form an opinion if I only know the ideals of each Communism and Capitalism. I need to know what actually happens or at least what people think happens. From what I heard, it's not so bad in China. However, China isn't a truly Communist country, due to its open market. I'm not sure what to think, really. To what extent is there individual freedom in the Communist countries? Reading up on them doesn't necessarily give me this information, because there aren't really any "Communist" countries as the ideology wants it be... I guess.

I guess a common leftist argument is that of the more controlled the government, the more controlled the people. It's just a matter of the government needing control. One of the biggest arguments of a leftist person is that of equality, which is quite hard to explain due to its flawed basis and very poor foundation of ideas.

Any right wing politician or ideologist would easily argue that along the lines of "The freer the market, the freer the people." This is absolutely true, and that's also why China, as you said has broken the habits of communism and become the powerhouse of the world (or soon to be). It's growing by the largest amount economically in terms of every other country, and they owe it all to the open market.

To sum it up, leftist arguments are about governmental control, how the government is the authority and authority makes society for the better.

Right wing arguments are about freedom with minimal government involvement, allowing a free trade system and freedom for everyone living in said country. They believe that a foundation of good government is giving power to the people; as well as getting support from the people.

That's really the most I can help considering that I haven't really gone farther into history at the moment. Hope it helps.

~kitty~ 03-28-2011 10:25 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3442357)
That's right; there hasn't been a single country that has worked out according to the true ideals of communism.

For your query, you'd have to do a lot more searching. I mean looking up the statistics of "communist" countries, reading up on documentaries, and so on. I can't really give you an explicit source, because what you decide upon is cumulative.

Maybe you can watch this for a start?

I will when I have my laptop fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PriestREA (Post 3442359)
I guess a common leftist argument is that of the more controlled the government, the more controlled the people. It's just a matter of the government needing control. One of the biggest arguments of a leftist person is that of equality, which is quite hard to explain due to its flawed basis and very poor foundation of ideas.

Any right wing politician or ideologist would easily argue that along the lines of "The freer the market, the freer the people." This is absolutely true, and that's also why China, as you said has broken the habits of communism and become the powerhouse of the world (or soon to be). It's growing by the largest amount economically in terms of every other country, and they owe it all to the open market.

To sum it up, leftist arguments are about governmental control, how the government is the authority and authority makes society for the better.

Right wing arguments are about freedom with minimal government involvement, allowing a free trade system and freedom for everyone living in said country. They believe that a foundation of good government is giving power to the people; as well as getting support from the people.

That's really the most I can help considering that I haven't really gone farther into history at the moment. Hope it helps.

I know this already, however this pretty much explains the outer surface of what I want to know. I'm trying to find out the opinion of the inner workings of these places such as China, Korea, and the other countries that claim to be under Communist rule.

How does the Communist rule kill their people? What do they do to kill them? I heard from one source that China doesn't allow you to speak about God. From another, I heard that the people of China tolerate religion to an extent and allows you to practice some religions as well. I don't know the details, so I can't really have a stance there. As for North Korea, I have no idea what they're doing. I'm trying to figure these things out, and watching the News provides really biased views of these things. I don't know where I can find credible information of these details.

PriestREA 03-28-2011 10:30 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3442366)
I will when I have my laptop fixed.



I know this already, however this pretty much explains the outer surface of what I want to know. I'm trying to find out the opinion of the inner workings of these places such as China, Korea, and the other countries that claim to be under Communist rule.

How does the Communist rule kill their people? What do they do to kill them? I heard from one source that China doesn't allow you to speak about God. From another, I heard that the people of China tolerate religion to an extent and allows you to practice some religions as well. I don't know the details, so I can't really have a stance there. As for North Korea, I have no idea what they're doing. I'm trying to figure these things out, and watching the News provides really biased views of these things. I don't know where I can find credible information of these details.

Well, I'm happy to look around at articles and see if I can find anything that matches the query =D

TheSaxRunner05 03-28-2011 11:00 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
I'd suggest looking for academic or professional sources, which tend to be less biased. Remember, every text has some bias because it was written by a human being.

ffraxis 03-29-2011 12:29 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
what kind of communism are you talking about guy, there are many different kinds of communist governments/doctrines.

start by looking at authoritarian/libertarian governments then slowly work away to find desired form of communist government (or make one up).

Izzy 03-29-2011 01:27 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Communism is bad in practice, not in theory. And it is only bad in practice because it is near impossible to execute the concept of communism perfectly.

kommisar 03-29-2011 06:23 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
communism looks great on paper, but obviously the history of communism implemented in any given society is atrocious. because there's so much money coming in that's supposed to be distributed, it's hard for whoever's in charge not to profit off this. too much responsibility that can be easily abused and unless there's someone else who disagrees with you (democracy!) there's usually nothing to stop you from doing such. unless you get overthrown or some shit which would be funny to see in china lmao

XCV 03-29-2011 08:31 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3442333)
I didn't really take your friend's/father's quote seriously as soon as they included "God-denying" as part of their reasoning.

In any case, the idea of communism is good. But the result never turns out as it is originally intended. That refers to the corruption, bureaucracy, etc. you're talking about.

More likely, however, most people misuse the word "communism". Some extreme Americans might say that Sweden or Canada is communist, when really, it's just a slightly lefter leaning capitalistic society. To be truly communist, it's a much longer road to the left than that. I suggest your father/friend don't swing that word carelessly; use the word as is it actually defined.

This is the idea I generally use when my friends/teachers bring this up.

Yeah, it's a good idea on paper. But to quote Lord Acton: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

If you haven't read it already, Animal Farm provides a pretty good reference.

EDIT: Christ I got ninjad like 4-fold

Reincarnate 03-29-2011 09:29 AM

Communism is aimed to prevent a classless society. That is to say, the government plays a bigger role in determining what you own. Your money effectively goes to the government as tax, and then the government, in turn, gives you the means to have clothing, employment, and food. In other words, you're guaranteed basic necessities as long as you play the game.

It sounds reasonable on paper, but it's often idealized and doesn't work well in practice. The problem is that when the government basically decides your lifestyle for you, there's no profit motive on your end. You don't get more if you work harder, so there's little incentive to innovate/excel/develop/create/pursue anything when you can just do the bare minimum and be just as well off as anyone else. The other issue: The economy depends on collective output. When you have a society producing at a suboptimal rate, that means there are often shortages. Goods are crappier. People who are in the government tend to take larger cuts because there's nobody to tell them otherwise.

As a result, the average individual lives a rather dull, monotonous life. You get housing, sure, but it's utterly small, shit housing with uber-thin walls, no air conditioning, etc. Regarding food, in America, you can pop into a store, buy something, and be on your way in seconds. Under a communist rule, governmental food distribution practices are usually extremely suboptimal. Lines are huge and you've got like 4-5 people involved in your transaction, and it takes forever. Jobs are often monotonous and dull with little satisfaction or real output.

On a more psychological note, you're in a society that is meant to be very collectivist and communal. Individual considerations are squelched because everything you do should be for the greater whole. There's usually a lot of fearmongering and propaganda put into effect to scare people into submission. It generates a large aura of distrust and it makes you afraid to even speak to your neighbors because it was a huge risk to get accused of something that would result in an easy arrest.

Various costs ultimately become too hard to take care of. Buildings crumble, medicine is scarce, etc.

The crucial problem of communism is that it teaches you to be submissive to power and it doesn't incentivize you to be very productive. You could be brainwashed to love your country under fear of punishment. It's not that communism as a concept implies that you NEED to be abusive to your citizens, or that you NEED to kill people, etc. It's just that the type of system that communism puts forth, when coupled with untapped power and human nature, results in a system that is typically oppressive and harsh.

Now, capitalism is another approach to the issue. It's based on private ownership and typically an open market. Which is to say, if I create my own goods I can trade them with you for your goods for a price we agree on, and nobody else has to be involved (other than, say, government taxing). This kind of system means there are more opportunities when it comes to business and innovation. When you've got competition, there is a drive to push forth and innovate/do things better/provide more value. In other words, hard work and brains are rewarded.

However, the nature of competition can often be unfair. Competition can sometimes lead to a scenario where you've got a monopoly, where one group controls resources and nobody else has a chance to compete against it. This sort of scenario works against the driving motors of capitalism to begin with, as monopolies lead to untapped power and stifling of innovation and (usually) economic suboptimalities. But this is where antitrust law and government rule tend to step in and try to rectify things to keep the open market open and competition thriving.

Ultimately, capitalism gives you an incentive to provide your own financial well-being and freedom, but it can also lead to unfair competition and unequal distributions of wealth. Not everyone is born with the same financial opportunities, freedoms, access to education, etc, and so sometimes it's not possible for some people to gain a competitive advantage to succeed in a capitalist society.

Communism can suck because it is like distributing suffering equally. Capitalism can suck because not everyone is born equal.

These are the major problems with government and economics: Equality, utility, and scarcity. We live in a society where people can produce things that provide utility to others, but not everyone is capable of providing the same levels of utility, and not everyone wants the same things, nor is it easy to make sure there's enough to go around to meet demand. So you have to figure out how to have a society that effectively results in the best life for the most amount of people. How are you going to keep power in check? How are you going to deal with those in society that provide nothing yet want free hand-me-outs? How are you going to stimulate innovation? How will you ensure everyone is effectively employed, happy, and safe? How will you deal with wealth distribution?

These are not easy questions. All you can try to do is move the sliders on the scales until you reach an optimal sweet-spot. But the optimal sweet-spots are always changing with the times, and sometimes we're not even sure how to solve for those sweet-spots. Sometimes moving the sliders themselves can be costly.

~kitty~ 03-29-2011 10:08 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
What I heard from someone who lived in China was that the housing given to them in the public sector (otherwise known as the "Communist" sector) was middle class. They have laws in effect that prevent social inequalities and racial discrimination, and slander is not tolerated. The debate was, however, who decides what's considered "slanderous" and how do we monitor those in power? The private sector is where the suffering and poor working conditions exist, from what I was told. They're usually living in the smaller villages and the managers of the factories are the ones getting all the money while the ones working under them get paid a drastically low amount of money.

However, the details upon freedom to move between these, and the law specifics, as well as a few other things is where things start to blur and I can't get a good picture of what it really is. It may not really seem fair, I guess, but for China's population it's not like there's a lot of ways to prevent mass suffering. My question isn't only directed towards China, though. I'm wondering what happens in these other countries as well, because they can't be nearly as bad as how they're portrayed, especially since no country is practicing Communism true to the ideals. Not that it'd work?

Do you get what I'm trying to ask for?

Wustenei 03-29-2011 11:53 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
it's not really communism itself that's bad the purpose it's set up for is good it's the leaders that make it a bad thing to have

~kitty~ 03-29-2011 12:11 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wustenei (Post 3442653)
it's not really communism itself that's bad the purpose it's set up for is good it's the leaders that make it a bad thing to have

Not trying to troll post, but this was put into CT for a reason. That logic can be true about any form of government.

kommisar 03-29-2011 05:03 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Given the history of communism, it's pretty much all it's been about.

Too much power given

RB_Quackies 03-29-2011 05:21 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Basically communism is just total and utter rule by the government, for "the good of the country as a whole". Even if that includes wasting a few lives on the way. To answer your question, "How does communism kill its people?" It's basically communism (in malpractice) may spark revolts, (or revolution attempts, which is happening in China right now) and the government will kill as many as they have to to stop it. Without regard for them whatsoever, as long as it's to stop a revolution.

As far as communism goes, the basic ideas of it, pretty much to have a plan for your entire life, everyone is promised a job, place to live, and food pretty much for life; as long as they are loyal to the country. Sounds pretty good, right? Well, in reality, it is, only without power hungry leaders. Marxism, which is the original based communism follows almost perfect rules in a Utopian society where everybody is equal, and nobody is left down in the dumps, to contradict with laissez-faire economics, or "let it be" capitalism.

To correlate communism with China in more recent days is a little bit off, because they have been much more lenient with business in the past 10 years, and are pretty much shifting into a socialism-Marxism type of government. However, America on the other hand, "land of the free" has shifted from pure laissez-faire capitalism (absolutely no health care restrictions, minimum wage, worker benefits, NOTHING besides what's best for the business) has slowly been becoming otherwise. Our 3 republican presidents of the booming 20's, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover, established this as "The business of America, is business" and basically, ever since then, we've been drifting towards what people consider "communism" and that is, to end where I started off, total and utter control by the government.

I hope I answered at least some questions you might have :)

Edit: DAMNIT KOMMI I HATE YOUR SIGNATURE

Xx{Midnight}xX 03-29-2011 05:24 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Communism is good on paper and in theory, just terrible in execution.

bmah 03-29-2011 05:50 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RB_Quackies (Post 3442821)
However, America on the other hand, "land of the free" has shifted from pure laissez-faire capitalism (absolutely no health care restrictions, minimum wage, worker benefits, NOTHING besides what's best for the business) has slowly been becoming otherwise. Our 3 republican presidents of the booming 20's, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover, established this as "The business of America, is business" and basically, ever since then, we've been drifting towards what people consider "communism"

Yes, this is what I meant earlier when referring to people who don't know what communism is. America has been so ingrained into pure capitalism that many people would consider a slight bit of control from the government as a communist act (and instant misuse of the word thereof). Maybe it's time to incorporate a healthy mix of both ideologies instead.

~kitty~ 03-29-2011 07:14 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RB_Quackies (Post 3442821)
Basically communism is just total and utter rule by the government, for "the good of the country as a whole". Even if that includes wasting a few lives on the way. To answer your question, "How does communism kill its people?" It's basically communism (in malpractice) may spark revolts, (or revolution attempts, which is happening in China right now) and the government will kill as many as they have to to stop it. Without regard for them whatsoever, as long as it's to stop a revolution.

As far as communism goes, the basic ideas of it, pretty much to have a plan for your entire life, everyone is promised a job, place to live, and food pretty much for life; as long as they are loyal to the country. Sounds pretty good, right? Well, in reality, it is, only without power hungry leaders. Marxism, which is the original based communism follows almost perfect rules in a Utopian society where everybody is equal, and nobody is left down in the dumps, to contradict with laissez-faire economics, or "let it be" capitalism.

To correlate communism with China in more recent days is a little bit off, because they have been much more lenient with business in the past 10 years, and are pretty much shifting into a socialism-Marxism type of government. However, America on the other hand, "land of the free" has shifted from pure laissez-faire capitalism (absolutely no health care restrictions, minimum wage, worker benefits, NOTHING besides what's best for the business) has slowly been becoming otherwise. Our 3 republican presidents of the booming 20's, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover, established this as "The business of America, is business" and basically, ever since then, we've been drifting towards what people consider "communism" and that is, to end where I started off, total and utter control by the government.

I hope I answered at least some questions you might have :)

Edit: DAMNIT KOMMI I HATE YOUR SIGNATURE

However, this doesn't answer the details I'm looking for, though it does answer some of the questions I've had. Where did you get your information, by the way? How do you know your basis for information isn't skewed? I want to see sources as well to back some of the claims, and I want some opinions which are clearly presented in your statements, but I want some more clearly defined opinions as well. Does that make sense or am I being unclear, because I've always had a problem with being unable to express myself in a way people understand.

bmah 03-29-2011 07:42 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
What exactly are you looking for...

vvav 03-29-2011 07:47 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Communism's theory and practice don't mesh, to me at least. Marx's proletarian uprising is exactly what happens when communism is actually put into place, bringing about supreme irony when a communist regime represses people attempting to enact the ruling regime's own theory. Communists have pretty well ****ered their own theory by taking the bourgeoisie out of power and then placing new leaders in their place, who are just as bad as the last ones. Marxism at its core really shouldn't be about totalitarianism. It should be the opposite, really, with the actual people ruling. It just never turns out that way in real communist countries. I think we just naturally set people up as leaders because that's the way our social system has evolved; there will be no such thing as a true workers' state as long as we ourselves are human.

Not trying to talk shit about communism, though. I like the idea of communism, but I have doubts about its practicality. The human race has spent too many millions of years ****ing each other over to suddenly start living in a fair and equal society. I'd love to be proven wrong.

~kitty~ 03-29-2011 07:52 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3442876)
What exactly are you looking for...

Well, you know how Quackies said people died from Communism because they were killing the people who were revolting? What exactly had started these revolts, or what is believed (believed that started them)? I also want to know what some of you guys think about some of the things going on in these countries and how they handle them.

From what I heard from somebody, China is doing a good job to keep a relatively peaceful environment over there. Also, I feel like people say things about other countries as if all that is behind it is the "power hungry" and "greedy." To allow such power to rise, a condition must be set for it to happen, right? What are some theories about why it is allowed to happen if it's so bad? I kind of want a little bit of history mixed with some of the current stuff... and I can't think so well because it's noisy here 24/7 so I may have made some confusing statements. Sorry.

Wineandbread 03-29-2011 08:28 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
China's not really very much Communist at all actually, from what I hear. They just declare that they are.

I won't echo everything that people have already said, but human nature will never allow for communism to work "ideally".

RB_Quackies 03-29-2011 09:18 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3442866)
However, this doesn't answer the details I'm looking for, though it does answer some of the questions I've had. Where did you get your information, by the way? How do you know your basis for information isn't skewed? I want to see sources as well to back some of the claims, and I want some opinions which are clearly presented in your statements, but I want some more clearly defined opinions as well. Does that make sense or am I being unclear, because I've always had a problem with being unable to express myself in a way people understand.

My information comes from studying under (in private lessons) Mr. Lipchitz (Joseph) and Mrs. Chen (Shehong), department head of history at UMass Lowell, and then head professor of U.S. and Chinese History at UMass Lowell. As well as reading a lot about the 1920's into 1930's for the history on Laissez-faire economics. For information on a general basis, I use Sirs database, which requires a paid subscription therefore I can't cite anything directly and apologize for that. Honestly, there's not too much room to go for information being skewed or altered, because I'm basing most information on current events relating to the definitions of communism, marxism and capitalism. However, what exactly are you looking for opinions on? You've asked a few questions and I've tried my best to answer to my ability, but let's get to the heart of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3442881)
Well, you know how Quackies said people died from Communism because they were killing the people who were revolting? What exactly had started these revolts, or what is believed (believed that started them)? I also want to know what some of you guys think about some of the things going on in these countries and how they handle them.

From what I heard from somebody, China is doing a good job to keep a relatively peaceful environment over there. Also, I feel like people say things about other countries as if all that is behind it is the "power hungry" and "greedy." To allow such power to rise, a condition must be set for it to happen, right? What are some theories about why it is allowed to happen if it's so bad? I kind of want a little bit of history mixed with some of the current stuff... and I can't think so well because it's noisy here 24/7 so I may have made some confusing statements. Sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUw7P-WCnUk

^ for China, and their culture; this is EXTREMELY unruly, almost unbelievable riots, similar to the SWAT team killing hundreds of people on the streets in America (things are a lot worse over here), so trust me, it is not peaceful in China :p you're thinking of Japan, which is dealing incredibly well with their situation, and there has not been one riot or revolt, and the country still has the lowest crime rate in the world; even in a dire situation for food (so Japan is the calm one, not so much China, as it was in the 50's - 60').

I will say countries have a power hungry and greedy government wherever it's necessary and truthful, not only about others. I would probably say that our government is definitely the most greedy, and places like Libya, China, and North Korea's are terribly terribly power hungry dictatorships. However, a situation doesn't really need to be set for China, seeing as how it dates back to emperors ruling in their dynasties (sometimes lasting up to 600 years in a family line! The same is with Japan, but more honor and less hostility towards current leaders). So as far as a situation being set for power to rise, it didn't necessarily need to because the position was already there, just with technological and economical advancements of the late 20th century corrupted many positions more than it should have.

Since many leaders have been being overturned (Egypt, Libya) in extremely large rebellions, the Chinese government has been worrying that the same is going to happen to them, but Francis Fukuyama from the Wall Street Journal gives reasons why China isn't ready to revolt yet, one being "For one thing, China is more clever and ruthless in its approach to repression". The overall jist of the entire article (which I will link) is referring to the ruthless government of the Chinese, which in the past 15 years especially has displayed that the living standards (and the lives) of the common-people does not matter.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...p_mostpop_read

I hope this post finishes off the rest of your questions, and if not; please be specific and thorough in asking (and list the questions) so I can have an orderly way of answering them, if I can.

bmah 03-29-2011 09:23 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
I've been to China twice. It's hard to get a real understanding of China since they really want tourists to ignore/be blind about certain aspects of the country they don't want you to see.

I'd say it depends on where you go, what's your status, and what you do. The government is certainly improving, but there are still many shady aspects.

~kitty~ 03-29-2011 09:53 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RB_Quackies (Post 3442928)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUw7P-WCnUk



I hope this post finishes off the rest of your questions, and if not; please be specific and thorough in asking (and list the questions) so I can have an orderly way of answering them, if I can.

Okay, the video clears up a lot of what I wanted to know. I see both sides now with a more clear scope now.

The other side that supports the Chinese government says that the Chinese government uses the "Military" force to retain the revolts as to keep the general "peace" in China, because a revolt can lead to huge amounts of violence, especially because of the population size of China. However, another side (probably mostly Americans) say that it is an unnecessary use of force, right?

I think I see what's going on now, but I still want to know more, and more opinions on what people feel about the practices of Communism in countries such as China and Korea. Please include other Communist countries as well, because I know even less about the others. I don't like when people bash other countries with ignorance. I want to be able to have a stance while knowing the right stuff, and I also want to know how people think about these topics on both sides.

RB_Quackies 03-30-2011 12:49 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Most people see it as an unnecessary use of force, yes. As it stands, average annual salary in China is about $21,000 (in a good standard). Pretty much, what is considered very low class to poor house in America (for 2-3 people) is what 8-10 people live in in China, without heat/air conditioning etc. Those are generally the wealthier ones, too. However people who live in major cities, like the capital are usually a little bit better off in terms of living standards, but still nothing like here at all.

Basically the communist fundamentals where you have a job, house, and food for life still stand, it's a safe assumption to say that the Chinese people are now realizing (because of the American economy monopolizing their workers) that it is not enough, and they are revolting for a democracy.

I don't know too too much about others, as I didn't study asian/african modern too much, mainly the history and cultures of them. However, Chinese government was never releasing the fact that we're basically at our hands and knees to China, seeing as how we owe them almost $14.5 trillion dollars in debt. However, it is now starting to come out more openly in public through BBC and Voice of America (odd, that's the same way the Russian people found out about Chernobyl, Voice of America. The government didn't explain to their people that there was a massive nuclear explosion, a satellite caught the mushroom cloud and a large gaping hole and reported it). That's a different story though.

Up until here, I've used my knowledge from what I've learned in studies, in this last message I've made radical decisions overlooking both sides, and pretty much came to a conclusion that the Chinese people want more from their government, knowing that it's the largest growing economy in our world; and the government refuses to accept any changes. In my honest opinion, there have been and will be attempts at a Chinese Revolution, but it will never happen, because the Chinese government simply doesn't care how many people they have to eliminate to bring back order. On topics of other countries, I can't help you too much. Korea, Libya and Egypt I would consider more of dictatorships than communist, and in retrospect, communism has slowly been dying out of countries, mainly for socialism and capitalism (respectively, in numbers). In a nutshell, there just aren't many completely communist countries anymore, and if there are, there's few and they are definitely small, in world standings that is, because they don't make any type of headlines.

I hope I've been a help, and I hope you can find out anything else you're looking to learn about it. :)

devonin 03-30-2011 02:13 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
China hasn't actually operated under communist principles for decades. There has never been an -actual- communist state in the entire history of the modern world. Cuba under early Castro is about the closest and even it missed the mark.

Judging communism by ANY currently functioning state claiming to be communist is to completely misunderstand how communism is supposed to run.

kommisar 03-30-2011 09:29 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
The best systems in any wealthy educated country is always a mix of socialism/capitalism since you do need both. Universal health care should be a standard in any developed country.

Americans criticize a lot of countries for being "communist" because they offer lots of social services, or have situations such as China. It's like they're afraid of the word or something.

MrReincarnatix 03-30-2011 09:47 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
China today isn't communist in the strictest sense -- it certainly has many communist elements (namely in the government), but there have been many capitalist implementations (primarily regarding open markets and private rights). I might classify China as a capitalist authoritarian society.

Vendetta21 03-30-2011 09:51 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Extreme leftism has legitimate philosophical and scientific roots, while also accepting the fact that every incarnation it experiences is doomed to failure. Capitalism is a system that erupted spontaneously, being a system that basically destroys friction in markets over time. But capitalism produces some grotesque things, and doesn't really seem to care that much about the well-being of people.

Leftism (socialism, communism) is about trying to implement economic structures that are centered around humanistic ideals periodically, which will appear, fail, and then appear again. It is not characterized by being an efficient system or self-sustaining, but a system of necessity. Part of the idea is that even if you succesfully implement a socialist or communist measure the natural course of capitalism will wear away at it over time, and so it won't have permanence.

A good book to read to understand where these people are coming from is First As Tragedy, Then As Farce by Slavoj Zizek. It's not the easiest philosophy in the world to get behind, but most of what people think about modern communism is wrong and so trying to understand it is interesting.

~kitty~ 03-30-2011 03:52 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Okay, a lot of my questions have been answered now, but one question that I need to have answered for the sake of my personal comfort at home is, "How does Communism 'deny God's existence'?" Personally, I'm not really someone who cares much about "God," however, I live in an environment where I'm constantly nagged about a God, so I just kind of want to know why people think this so I can feel more comfortable. I don't know if there's any legitimacy behind the claim or not, or if it refers to Marxism and the idea of abolishing established Religions... I don't know if I'm making any sense anymore.

MrReincarnatix 03-30-2011 04:38 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3443506)
Okay, a lot of my questions have been answered now, but one question that I need to have answered for the sake of my personal comfort at home is, "How does Communism 'deny God's existence'?" Personally, I'm not really someone who cares much about "God," however, I live in an environment where I'm constantly nagged about a God, so I just kind of want to know why people think this so I can feel more comfortable. I don't know if there's any legitimacy behind the claim or not, or if it refers to Marxism and the idea of abolishing established Religions... I don't know if I'm making any sense anymore.

Short answer: No, communism is an ideological/political/societal/economic system and doesn't (fundamentally) say anything about religion.

However, again, in practice, communist systems have typically tried to suppress religion due to its nature as a method of societal control. Having a religion meant there's a chance of holding your God as an authority above the government's. As a result, religion was strongly discouraged because they basically wanted you to place your life's meaning in the context of the society itself and not the supernatural. Karl Marx has famously cited religion as an "opiate of the masses" that detracted people's time and energy away from progress. Questioning the communist government was seen as a huge problem. The government was concerned with what's called a sort of "partinost," or a commitment to the working-class cause -- and the belief that everything the party does is correct.

Stalin, when he was young, was a priest-in-training himself -- and he knew the power of religion. He felt that that kind of power would not mesh well with communist rule. You only served one master -- you were only loyal, devoted, and committed to one entity.

Calcium Deposit 03-30-2011 11:53 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Isn't Star Trek communist?

ffraxis 03-31-2011 12:45 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RB_Quackies (Post 3442821)

To correlate communism with China in more recent days is a little bit off, because they have been much more lenient with business in the past 10 years, and are pretty much shifting into a socialism-Marxism type of government. However, America on the other hand, "land of the free" has shifted from pure laissez-faire capitalism (absolutely no health care restrictions, minimum wage, worker benefits, NOTHING besides what's best for the business) has slowly been becoming otherwise. Our 3 republican presidents of the booming 20's, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover, established this as "The business of America, is business" and basically, ever since then, we've been drifting towards what people consider "communism" and that is, to end where I started off, total and utter control by the government.

Its not about the government becoming communist, its about the corporations taking over and becoming organizations that exert power nationally or internationally with the interest of making profits, maintaining specific profits, and of course buying off people or using dirty work to make sure they are maintaining themselves in power.

So to the speak, America is becoming a plutocracy.

Reincarnate 03-31-2011 01:05 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
lol

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...ay-anything---

Vendetta21 04-1-2011 10:36 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ffraxis (Post 3443892)
So to the speak, America is becoming a plutocracy.

lol becoming?

Cavernio 04-4-2011 03:00 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
What Devonin said.

You're happy to learn about what China's like as examples of what communism really is, yet ignoring everyone who says its not communist. Strict laws to keep the peace does not mean its communist. As to your questions about Korea, neither South nor North Korea is communist. South Korea elects a president, North Korea is a dictatorship. If you want to call dictatorships communist, well then of course they suck.

Secondly, the definition of communism does not necessarily mean the state controls everything. Its the people who control things. Once a state forcibly takes control, then communism no longer exists.

The people who I've talked to who seem to hold worst views of communism come from eastern Europe, probably people who've lived in the USSR and the aftermath of it.

As to belief in God and communism, the 2 really have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Whatever your dad is spewing is probably a specific example of some dictator's ideals which were then forced upon that country, or something.

hayatewillown 04-5-2011 05:30 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
If you're interested in any novels which may give an Idea (and possibly a side for you),
Read 1984. It's a good read.

devonin 04-5-2011 10:51 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
1984 has absolutely nothing to do with communism.

Calcium Deposit 04-6-2011 01:19 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
"1984" was an autocratic dystopia. The main themes were oppression, invasion of privacy, dumbing down of society, and government corruption rather than an economical plan based on equal distribution.

Vendetta21 04-14-2011 06:28 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

This is a pretty interesting proxy-communist movie that shows how the philosophy is a lot deeper and more interesting than one would initially assume.

At the very least, watching it may expand your mental horizons beyond a dichotomy between Capitalism and Communism where they span the poles between "good" and "bad."

AquaTeen 07-11-2011 08:04 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Communism is wrong because you lose your sense of individuality because you have people controlling what you wear, how you feel, what you can and can't learn about, and they choose your religion and if you go against their rules it's the Ax for you... Read George Orwell's 1984 it explains what it's like under "Big Brother's" (Government's) rule and what it's like to be communist and what happens when you go against them and while you're at reading that, read George Orwell's Animal Farm again it explains everything so this way it teaches why communism is bad and everything... hope this helped

devonin 07-12-2011 09:44 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
It helped especially in light of the post several posts above pointing out that 1984 has nothing at all to do with communism. Which is to say it didn't help.

wargasm1 07-12-2011 10:49 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
imo communism is no worse than capitalism. A system that allows people to make hundreds of times more money than others is fail.

Heres a list of the worlds top billionnaires http://www.forbes.com/wealth/billionaires

Doesnt that make u wanna buy a gun and shoot people?

AquaTeen 07-12-2011 11:26 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 3446971)
1984 has absolutely nothing to do with communism.

1984 had lots to do with Communism if you think about it a Communist rule is also known as a Totalitarianistic rule which means one person, in 1984's case "Big Brother", is there to make sure you follow the rules of Communism and if you don't follow, you're made an "Unperson" or killed for that matter so if you read it closely and understand what it's saying then you would understand that it IS about Communism but I also mentioned Animal Farm so it should have helped looks like there are a lot of people out here that doesn't understand George Orwell's literature and it's relation to Communism -.-

~kitty~ 07-12-2011 12:57 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
I just think the sense of individualism in America is strong so an idea like Communism doesn't appeal to people who already have money. Those who struggle in Capitalism would start to enjoy the idea of Communism unless they otherwise think they can climb the ladder. That's probably why it started to become a growing idea in America because most people are actually not very well off here. There are plenty of socialist programs we use in America, as well. People enjoy those and ask for them without knowing that Socialism has some connection to Communism. If I'm wrong about something, feel free to correct me.

Cavernio 07-12-2011 02:23 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3502313)
I just think the sense of individualism in America is strong so an idea like Communism doesn't appeal to people who already have money. Those who struggle in Capitalism would start to enjoy the idea of Communism unless they otherwise think they can climb the ladder. That's probably why it started to become a growing idea in America because most people are actually not very well off here. There are plenty of socialist programs we use in America, as well. People enjoy those and ask for them without knowing that Socialism has some connection to Communism. If I'm wrong about something, feel free to correct me.

What you say all makes sense, and I'm sure is how some people are, but yet I still have to question why you think people must always have solely, individual selfish reasons for believing something? People are capable of thinking beyond themselves and what something means for themselves you know. Afterall, if you can logically infer things about others, others can infer the same things that happen to other people. Not every opinion someone has is deepseated in improving their own selves. Or if if is, then that self-improvement could be based upon doing things like helping others, or trying to figure out the world in the way that makes the most sense, and therefore such things supersede an individual's need to have more money or feel safe, or whatever else you think ultimately drives people.
I'm sure there are wealthy people out there who believe in communism, but for some reason I think you'd think those people must have some sort of alteriour motive for wanting communism, like thinking they could somehow do better by taking advantage of the system.

Besides which, I thought the idea of communism took hold in the US during the 50's where, so I've heard, the middle-class was much larger, and if this is true, then your reasons are somewhat invalid.

Sorry, this is a tangent. I'm upset about other stuff where apparently I must have deep-seated fear of not having a spirit because I'm a dualist, and you are applying the same principles that you used for me, in determining why someone would support communism.

~kitty~ 07-12-2011 03:03 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3502365)
What you say all makes sense, and I'm sure is how some people are, but yet I still have to question why you think people must always have solely, individual selfish reasons for believing something? People are capable of thinking beyond themselves and what something means for themselves you know. Afterall, if you can logically infer things about others, others can infer the same things that happen to other people. Not every opinion someone has is deepseated in improving their own selves. Or if if is, then that self-improvement could be based upon doing things like helping others, or trying to figure out the world in the way that makes the most sense, and therefore such things supersede an individual's need to have more money or feel safe, or whatever else you think ultimately drives people.
I'm sure there are wealthy people out there who believe in communism, but for some reason I think you'd think those people must have some sort of alteriour motive for wanting communism, like thinking they could somehow do better by taking advantage of the system.

Besides which, I thought the idea of communism took hold in the US during the 50's where, so I've heard, the middle-class was much larger, and if this is true, then your reasons are somewhat invalid.

Sorry, this is a tangent. I'm upset about other stuff where apparently I must have deep-seated fear of not having a spirit because I'm a dualist, and you are applying the same principles that you used for me, in determining why someone would support communism.

A few things... I never said anything about people solely being selfish, I did not assume that there's no such thing as somebody who did not only work at improving themselves. In America, it's a lot more prevalent. Also, wealthy people are LESS LIKELY to give in to the idea of Communism.

Even if we say a majority of people are middle class, there's also a lot of people below middle class. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it gets pretty large and middle class people sometimes have the illusion that they aren't as well off as they think they are. Many people who are of lower class think they might be middle class, as well. It kind of gets confusing there, but that's not the point. It boils down to the overall condition we have in America and how Capitalism creates a large gap between the "haves" and "have nots".

I don't have the proper knowledge to tell you if everyone is inherently selfish and only act for others based on their own personal gain or not, but I believe it is possible that no person truly is unselfish.

devonin 07-12-2011 03:31 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaTeen (Post 3502283)
1984 had lots to do with Communism if you think about it a Communist rule is also known as a Totalitarianistic rule which means one person, in 1984's case "Big Brother", is there to make sure you follow the rules of Communism and if you don't follow, you're made an "Unperson" or killed for that matter so if you read it closely and understand what it's saying then you would understand that it IS about Communism but I also mentioned Animal Farm so it should have helped looks like there are a lot of people out here that doesn't understand George Orwell's literature and it's relation to Communism -.-

Communist "Rule" is a meaningless term, nobody rules a communist state. If there is a Totalitarianism, you do not have a communism. You are misusing the term and equating two things which are not equal. An actual functioning communist state has no 'Big Brother' or need for one. Intrinsic in actual communism is a vested interest in that system from everyone in it.

If you don't follow the rules, you are simply not a part of that community. I can't see a reason why you would -need- to be killed in that case, unless you decided to try and still take resources by violence or force of arms.

1984 does not describe a communist state. Full stop.

fido123 07-12-2011 04:04 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Most people in this thread seem to have formed their idea of what communism is from Cold War propaganda. Communism is an economical system and nothing more. It doesn't mean you're restricted to a certain religion or you loose you individuality, it just means equal distribution of wealth very simply put.

wargasm1 07-12-2011 04:26 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3502418)
Most people in this thread seem to have formed their idea of what communism is from Cold War propaganda. Communism is an economical system and nothing more. It doesn't mean you're restricted to a certain religion or you loose you individuality, it just means equal distribution of wealth very simply put.

yes exactly. I don't think the human race will make it past this century if we don't start adressing the wealth distribution problem. We suck for doing nothing about it.

~kitty~ 07-12-2011 04:37 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3502418)
Most people in this thread seem to have formed their idea of what communism is from Cold War propaganda. Communism is an economical system and nothing more. It doesn't mean you're restricted to a certain religion or you loose you individuality, it just means equal distribution of wealth very simply put.

That's a point hard to convey to others. I don't understand what's difficult to understand about that.

wargasm1 07-12-2011 05:44 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
fgsgs

Without A Contraceptive 07-13-2011 12:24 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 3446971)
1984 has absolutely nothing to do with communism.

ohhhh man the fact that this has to be said voids all conjecture in this thread

in short the whole 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need' stuff is pretty much evil. holler at your randoid.

devonin 07-13-2011 02:10 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

in short the whole 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need' stuff is pretty much evil.
Source?

fido123 07-13-2011 05:23 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive (Post 3502889)
in short the whole 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need' stuff is pretty much evil. holler at your randoid.

This view is obviously derived from Cold War propaganda. If you're not going to say why it's "evil" expect us to make these assumptions. Honestly communism is pretty much the opposite of "evil" IMO as it's putting in all you can and people take out what they need to eliminate poverty and create a standard living of life everybody would have. Capitalism is trying to work your way up the salary ladder any way you can no matter how many people to step on along the way. I'm personally for capitalism because I don't like the idea of lazy people who'll just abuse the system benefiting from my work, and I don't like the idea of the government regulating everything.

zadkiel91 07-13-2011 09:54 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Like some said in here, the idea is not bad but once exercised is just completely terrible. If we lived in a communist society, there wouldn't be any big buildings for saying something, because everything would be controlled by the government, private enterprises wouldn't exist.

devonin 07-14-2011 12:28 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Everything would be controlled by the people determined to be best suited to controlling them. That's not at all the same thing. Also "big building for saying something" what does that even mean?

Without A Contraceptive 07-16-2011 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3503051)
This view is obviously derived from Cold War propaganda. If you're not going to say why it's "evil" expect us to make these assumptions. Honestly communism is pretty much the opposite of "evil" IMO as it's putting in all you can and people take out what they need to eliminate poverty and create a standard living of life everybody would have. Capitalism is trying to work your way up the salary ladder any way you can no matter how many people to step on along the way. I'm personally for capitalism because I don't like the idea of lazy people who'll just abuse the system benefiting from my work, and I don't like the idea of the government regulating everything.

it's actually derived from atlas shrugged if you must know.

this is the type of stuff i hate discussing online but tmrw i'll try to type up a big comprehensive post blah blah

basically it is an "evil" principle in that stripping the financial benefits of production from the producers and distributing it to all is a disgrace to them and whatever they produce. john galt walking out of the factory concept.

your perception of capitalism in action is rather elementary. contemporary american capitalism seems polarized - The Rich Step on People Everyone thats Broke Is LAzy - as a (i'd assume, this is all just wild shots in the dark) result of aspects of our society such as the crazy distribution of wealth. working your way up the salary ladder takes a back seat to the real benefits of capitalism - recognition for your innovation, work, production, genius, intelligence, etc.. with you on the dont like the government regulating everything though.

if money is the root of all evil - ask yo self what is the root of all money

devonin 07-16-2011 10:48 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
You realize that Atlas Shrugged is also basically propaganda? Objectivism as a philosophy is hardly a globally accepted position any more than Communism is.

I'll let you in on a secret: The factory that Rand described in Atlas Shrugged, the one that functioned "According to Pure Ideal Communism" was pretty much a farce through and through. It didn't come CLOSE to actually representing a) what communism even -is- or b) the way communism would actually function when functioning properly.

It takes an incredibly simplistic understanding of the maxim "From each according to their abilities, To each according to their needs" and then fills the factory with people who are not actually taking part in the system, but instead exactly like capitalists, doing whatever they percieve gives them the most individual personal benefit from the system.

If you have "Communism" and then people "in" the communist state that aren't actually acting legitimately according to the tenets of Communism, you don't actually have communism.

fido123 07-16-2011 11:34 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
I won't bother going over things devoin already said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive (Post 3504521)
basically it is an "evil" principle in that stripping the financial benefits of production from the producers and distributing it to all is a disgrace to them and whatever they produce. john galt walking out of the factory concept.

So you're basically saying "it's not capitalism so it's evil"? I'm a capitalist, I should earn what I put in but distributing wealth equally regardless of work put in isn't quite "evil". I disagree with it but it's a way of getting rid of poverty by balancing the wealth. It's more of a humanitarian approach to things, so that's why I say it's anything but evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive (Post 3504521)
your perception of capitalism in action is rather elementary. contemporary american capitalism seems polarized - The Rich Step on People Everyone thats Broke Is LAzy - as a (i'd assume, this is all just wild shots in the dark) result of aspects of our society such as the crazy distribution of wealth.

I'm not saying all people who are broke are lazy at all, but I think people who live off welfare are who don't have a legitimate reason. Everybody I know on welfare is quite capable of getting a job but when they found a job at a grocery store or something they just complain about how the manager was a bitch or something stupid and they had to quit, which I guess sometimes would be valid but I'm pretty sure it's just an excuse for not working especially since it's from every one of them. I can find a job pretty easily even with a speech impediment which limits me from working a lot of jobs where I have to deal with people, yet these people CLAIM to find it so hard to get a job without one yet they've hardly gone out and looked. This is why I say from personal experiences MOST people who LIVE (not just use for a while, while times are tough for it's intended purpose) off welfare are lazy, and I don't want to support these people. I'd rather throw them on the streets.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive (Post 3504521)
working your way up the salary ladder takes a back seat to the real benefits of capitalism - recognition for your innovation, work, production, genius, intelligence, etc.. with you on the dont like the government regulating everything though.

100% agree. With people competing to develop new technology it only pushes are society to do greater things.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive (Post 3504521)
if money is the root of all evil - ask yo self what is the root of all money

u high? Seriously though money isn't the root of all evil, the want for power (money is power but there are other kinds too) and ignorance (religious wars) are IMO and I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying lol.

~kitty~ 07-17-2011 03:23 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
I'm pretty sure most people who are strongly against Communism, even when reasoned with, watch Fox News (or an equivalent) as their news source. My parents watch Fox News and have a closed-minded view of Communism.

fido123 07-17-2011 01:36 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~kitty~ (Post 3505093)
I'm pretty sure most people who are strongly against Communism, even when reasoned with, watch Fox News (or an equivalent) as their news source. My parents watch Fox News and have a closed-minded view of Communism.

It's pretty much any news source. If you were around in the 60's, 70's, and 80's or obtained your views from anybody who was around then, chances are you're going to think communism this evil system only run under totalitarian regimes. The communist countries have to take some of the blame because the major ones ones at least that were around during that period failed miserable. They mismanaged food production and as a result thousands, maybe even a couple million starved in China and Russia. The government/media however took facts like these and the fact their governments were oppressive and shitty, and told everybody that this is what communism is like (although a lot of stuff including the starvation of millions didn't quite get out since there was the Iron Curtain. Obviously all of this has nothing to do with communism, rather than countries that happens to be communist being run like absolute shit. Communism could probably be done right, although I wouldn't want it, and communists definitely aren't "evil", that's just propaganda since communism was the enemy of the U.S. Also my dad is Canadian and we don't have Fox News up here and he thinks communism is evil.

~kitty~ 07-18-2011 02:02 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3505229)
It's pretty much any news source. If you were around in the 60's, 70's, and 80's or obtained your views from anybody who was around then, chances are you're going to think communism this evil system only run under totalitarian regimes. The communist countries have to take some of the blame because the major ones ones at least that were around during that period failed miserable. They mismanaged food production and as a result thousands, maybe even a couple million starved in China and Russia. The government/media however took facts like these and the fact their governments were oppressive and shitty, and told everybody that this is what communism is like (although a lot of stuff including the starvation of millions didn't quite get out since there was the Iron Curtain. Obviously all of this has nothing to do with communism, rather than countries that happens to be communist being run like absolute shit. Communism could probably be done right, although I wouldn't want it, and communists definitely aren't "evil", that's just propaganda since communism was the enemy of the U.S. Also my dad is Canadian and we don't have Fox News up here and he thinks communism is evil.

This wasn't my point, really. My claim was that news sources such as Fox News (and others) would try to make you believe that Communism is evil, regardless of what evidence you have to prove it may not be. The reasoning behind that is the extremist ways of news sources such as Fox News that like to present obviously false news that not only is false but may be border line racist as well.

EDIT: That is for example. I'm not making any definitive statements, I'm just pointing out a trend.

RB_IcePh0enix 08-12-2011 11:57 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
"Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat" -Friedrich Engels

If I were you, I wouldn't take the opinions of FFR posters to figure out your views on communism. Instead, I would read about communism from its original sources and decide for yourself. The theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are pretty much the foundation of communism. Engels' Communism FAQ is a great place to start, then I would read the Communist Manifesto.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...1/prin-com.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...ist-manifesto/
(you can also get the Communist Manifesto at most libraries or bookstores)

I don't think you could really say that Marx or Engels were biased in their view of communism, considering they were the original creators of the theory of communism. I hope this helps.

Cherubi 08-13-2011 08:31 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Any sort of government where a group of people have stupid amounts of power and influence will never work. It is just human nature. If the idea of communism adopted a more democratic system to elect those in power, maybe it would work a little better. No matter what, there will always be a flaw and a need for more power.

devonin 08-14-2011 11:50 AM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Communism is the exact opposite of a system where a group of people have stupid amounts of power and influence.

Cherubi 08-14-2011 05:10 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Name me one situation where a communist country wasn't run by an elite of people, thus creating an incredible gap between rich and poor (which is defeating the exact purpose of "communism")

devonin 08-14-2011 05:19 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
Name me one communist country. (Tip: There are none)

Let me expand in advance before you come back with a list of the usual suspects: Simply stating that you are a communist country does not actually make you a communist country. China is not a communist country, North Korea is not a communist country, the USSR was not a communist country. The closest we've come to it is Cuba, and even that is not actually a communist country.

Cherubi 08-14-2011 05:27 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
So the debate is really how "communist" a country actually was or is. It's but an ideology that has never been legitimately implemented, am I right?

devonin 08-14-2011 05:31 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
The discussion has changed and evolved a few times over the thread. What communism -is- and what has been done in places claiming to be communist are totally seperate questions. My objections to the OP and similar people suggesting that communism is bad on the grounds of the actions of states like China is to say "That isn't communism" but there are other objections you could lodge about it as an ideology.

Cherubi 08-14-2011 05:41 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
No country has ever successfully implemented an actual communist system, usually always leading to some of the worst human conditions on earth or an oligarchic government where the people have no legitimate power.

I'd debate whether communism would actually succeed or not if it were to actually happen somewhere (the way communism was meant to be on paper that is).

devonin 08-14-2011 06:06 PM

Re: Communism is bad?
 
It did work, many times, on appropriately small scales all throughout the Hippie movement of the 1960s.


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