![]() |
Does your gender or sex define you?
Poll: If you were to wake up tomorrow morning, and you were the opposite sex, would you forever after have identity issues?
My answer to this question is No, but I'm pretty sure I'm a minority. How much someone's sex or gender defines someone has always been interesting to me, especially because I feel like my sex largely defines me only for sexual purposes. Sure, if I were a man, my current relationship would likely fall apart and that would suck a lot, although I'm presuming I'd still like men. I think I'd end up being a gay man, but outside all of the romance and sex and dating, I truly believe I could go on being myself without much of an issue. Now, the fact that I think most people would have serious problems having their sex changed, I can think of 2 fairly separate reasons why. 1) You would feel like you're in the wrong body, and this would affect you in everyday situations, because you no longer portray the inner identity that you have for yourself. 2) You would actually be much like myself, in that you don't feel like your gender much defines you one way or the other, but the fact that it would screw up your sexual relationships would just be too much. In this case, your romantic relationships are so integral to your life, and define you so much, that having them likely fall apart, and that you may never be able to be comfortable in such a relationship again, would be traumatizing. I see 1 as being very different from 2. I could see myself in situation 2 in fact, at least if I had kids or something. But situation 1? Not really. When thinking about what defines me, I rarely think 'I'm a woman' first. I think 'I've had depression, I love what music can do to me, I love to learn, I strive to be open-minded.' I could be wrong here though, and if I were to have my sex changed, I'm just deluding myself into how much it would affect me. I'm fairly certain I don't want to be a man, just that I wouldn't mind being a man. I don't mind being a woman either. I'm definitely not gay or bisexual though. Never fallen in love with a woman, don't get turned on by women. I'm also coming at this very one-sided. I've never talked to anyone who's got gender identity problems, and only recently found out that someone here has them. I want to make it super clear I don't mean to offend, especially if I obviously don't 'get' something. Maybe all the stuff I said in the earlier paragraph isn't actually true for people who do feel like they're in the wrong body. I think I have women's rights movements to thank for feeling as I do though. There's nothing that I want to do that I feel I can't because I'm a woman, and although I was raised with gender roles for many things (I'm still slightly bitter that my brother got to cut the grass outdoors and I got to clean the bathrooms, thanks mom), I was never under the impression that there was any field of work I couldn't get into because I'm female or anything like that. (Although now that I'm older I know this is not always the case.) I mean, if I felt like I being a woman meant I had a specific role in life, or that being a man meant I had specific role, I could see myself not feeling the way I do now. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Simply being a girl would mean I have identity issues. Sure, guys have identity issues too but it's not like anyone cares. It's more of a secret really.
If I woke up a girl I would then have to identify with my newfound womanlyhood and not my manlyhood. I've spent my entire adult life [that's the past 9 months] doing things because I had this image of what a man should act like and I acted accordingly. Of course you see I'd have to have issue with changing my entire reality simply because I'd no longer have the need to be manly but now womanly which are two completely different personas. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
It would play an impact on my every day life, yes. On a social level I am expected to look a certain way as a woman and for that reason I have conformed. Mentally, I don't identify with either gender. I feel isolated from both and yet feel like I can identify with both. If gender weren't so stringent in this society I would definitely feel more comfortable to be more androgynous than I am now.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I wasn't sure how to vote on the poll since, well, y'know >_>
If I woke up tomorrow and was fully biologically female, I would be pretty damn happy. I'm going to try and address the rest of your thoughts directly rather than through the medium of the topic, since it seems specifically geared towards cis people and therefore I can't really answer in accordance with the thought experiment. Quote:
Quote:
I don't really think much of my gender, but the fact is I feel anatomically incorrect. I don't know if you're familiar with computers, but being TG for me is sort of like having a piece of hardware physically installed on a platform when you don't have drivers for it. I've never been in a romantic relationship, or even tried for one, because I wouldn't know what to do with myself in one. But people talk a lot about love, there are expectations about it, it gets played up a lot and people who don't experience it are viewed as abnormal or inferior. So again, there are compounding psychological and social effects from not being able to have romantic encounters. I tried to teach myself to be ok with the thought of being chaste for life, and it took away a lot of the stress, but every now and then I would catch glimpses of what other people were getting out of love, or I would find myself attracted to someone, or even just generically aroused. And again this plays into expectations. So there's a combination effect that makes the inability to have relationships into something extremely alienating. Everyone you know is either in a relationship, has been in one or has it as their goal to be in one, and you've given up on it because you don't have it in you to get into a relationship in your current body. And so you're already the odd one out, but then throw in the fact that everyone is expecting you to be dating, to throw your two cents in on "would you hit it" conversations and to talk about people you're attracted to, and it can be offputting to other people as well. And the first assumption is always that you're just gay, because that would be an easy answer, and it would still make you relateable because you would still have those same kinds of feelings, priorities, goals as other people, just directed towards a different gender. So again you get misread, and feel lonely, and that's just if people continue to associate with you under the false impressions they've generated. Nevermind when they get so weirded out they just decide not to deal with you. But basically, there are very real expectations for different sexes, and there are also equivalent expectations for both sexes which are hard to fulfill when you don't identify with that sex. Having body parts you don't know what to do with, and in lieu of body parts which you would know what to do with is upsetting beyond description. If anyone has ever broken a bone, and a bone they use in the course of their day to day life, and waited for it to heal, they're probably familiar with a feeling of being trapped or being disempowered. Except in the case of TG people it's not just that you aren't able to use something you have well developed insticts to use, it's that it's been replaced with another thing which is completely useless. I could write a lot more but I don't want to bombard you with a wall of text, which this already somewhat is. As an aside, as a result of feminism social expectations for women may have grown laxer, allowing women more freedom of expression in terms of gender presentation, but being an effiminate man is still very much enforced against in ways that being a masculine women is not. So your idea that there are no specific roles for the genders is extremely gynocentric, and also eurocentric in the sense that women's liberation doesn't really extend to the third world. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I would also like to point out that the topic title is an example of the hyperbole I take issue with. It seems to imply, intentionally or otherwise, that the only way one can be TG is to have a superficial sense of self.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Well, we know there are hormonal and neurological differences between men and women. This fact, combined with what we know about people that undergo sex change would lead me to conclude that for most people, waking up permanently stuck in the opposite sexes body with your same brain and hormonal chemistry would be highly traumatic in the long run, leading to unresolvable psychological problems. It's a psychological mismatch; everything you've known and everything you will believe in the future identifies with a sex different from your body.
Now, if you were a man, and woke up tomorrow as a female with altered brain chemistry and altered hormonal chemistry to match that of a typical female, I would think many people would be ok in the long run. Initially it would be a shock to your system, leading to a myriad of psychological problems, but you wouldn't feel like you were someone trapped in the wrong kind of body. Eventually it would feel normal. If you did get over your identity crisis, you would probably be fine in the long run. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I suppose it would all depend on the change. It depends how you look. (i dont mean in the shallow douchey way either) I mean like what if someone merely woke up with the 'parts' of the other gender. Noone would really know (to a degree) so for the most part you'd still be you just a different gender. Now obviously how people look at you would change if they ever found out, and romantic pursuits might be a harder to come by, but i think it would all be the same. People only feel bad or wrong based on what society is supposed to think. I mean at one point in time, African Americans were looked at badly, as well as 0 rights for woman. Now it's illegal immigrants, Arabs, Muslims, etc. Unfortunately society is always going to have things that they see as out of the normal and always have something to make fun of or cut down. If everyone actually had equal rights, or freedom of expression, I don't waking up a different gender would be as big a deal. And certainly not having identity issues.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I’m having a difficult time fully understanding what you’re asking. I personally don’t see how someone COULDN’T have identity issues after waking up with an unanticipated sex change – both in the short run as well as the long run. The only way I could imagine someone not suffering an identity crisis after such a traumatic experience, would be if the person them self had been suffering identity issues prior to the experience. I say this because, as Reach had mentioned earlier, there are a significant amount of hormonal and (more importantly in this case) neurological differences between males and females. All in all, I don’t think it would be something you (or at least I) would be able to shrug off or become accustomed to. I say this because there are countless amounts of cases of people who suffer from some sort of gender identity crisis who generally are never able to fully overcome them. Our brains, more often than not, are hardwired for our respective genders from birth.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Gender is a social construct. The way we dress, walk, and talk has a lot to do with how society has taught us to behave. Wearing a dress has nothing to do with being female. So, no, if our brain "changed' when our sex changed it would not make the transition any easier unless you erased all of the memories that person had growing up.
And anyone on this forum that says no does not understand how much your life would change if you woke and were the opposite sex. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
In a way, I didn't refute your statement at all, but just keep in mind that the way you worded it allows it to be extremely negative or positive. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I did not mean it in a negative or positive way. The bottom line is that men are treated very differently from women and vice versa in our society. Aside from the physical logistics you would have to deal with, the world would be looking at you completely differently and you would have to learn a completely new set of social rules that you were not subject to before. While I think life would be easier if I were a man and I probably would have made a better man than a woman, that doesn't mean that if I woke up tomorrow I would automatically know how to BE a man. Those are things you learn throughout your lifetime through trial and error.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Honestly not really besides the fact I'd be a lesbian woman and I'd have to piss sitting down.
Plus if I really cared to revert back to being a guy there's now surgery for that and hormones. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
From a medical standpoint, transitioning from a female to a male is much more difficult than a man to transition to a female body.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Also, clearly the only explanation for why there are 17 "no" votes is because 17 of the voters are transgender, because nothing else would make any damn sense
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
At the same time WtMs have to go not only through bottom surgery but also top surgery. And from what I have heard, the plastic surgeons don't really put that much effort into removing a woman's breast for aesthetic reasons...at least not as much cares as they take with women with breast cancer. And a voice can be trained to be higher. It is much more acceptable for a woman to have a deep voice than a man to have a high pitched voice, at least in my opinion. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Regardless, just because the way we dress etc is shaped in part by society doesn't mean it doesn't have a foundation in the fundamental biology of sex. If you don't mind, explain to me how changing your chemistry to that of the opposite sex would not ease the transition from one sex to the other. Just because it wouldn't make the transition simple doesn't mean it wouldn't facilitate the transition. I don't see how this could possibly not be the case, so I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Of course the transition is going to be hard. My point was that, if it is to work at all, the only way would include a fundamental change in biological chemistry in conjunction with any other changes that are made. Otherwise, the transition is doomed to failure. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
If I was a chick Id masturbate all day.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
If we lived in the jungle, didn't have language, logic, and had no sense of what a man was or what a woman was, yes then the transition would be simple. If my male dog woke up as a female dog tomorrow, he probably would not even realize what happened. However, as human beings we put everything into categories and we find it very difficult if not impossible to break the "rules" that we apply to those categories.
Just to add to this since I don't seem to be making myself clear. How many men would honestly know what to do if they go their period tomorrow? Would you know how to insert a tampon? If you woke up as a heterosexual woman would you even know how to go about flirting with a man? If I woke up as a man I wouldn't even know how to bathe properly with the new equipment. I wouldn't know how to walk like a man or even talk like a man. Even if my brain chemistry changed, this would not facilitate any of these things because it is what we learn as we are growing up. Also, the nonsensical "gender is a social construct" is nonsensically used as a definition in most universities around the country. Sex and gender are two completely different things. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Also, I seriously question the fact that your dog would not notice. He most certainly would know. The fact that your dog would not respond the same way as a human has to do with differences in intelligence between humans and dogs. I've been attending university for a long time, and I've never heard the sentence 'gender is a social construct' used, ever, without further explanation, since the term is semantically ambiguous and can mean any number of things. Even then, we have to be careful. When most people use the term social contruct, what they really claim is that gender is not an inevitable result of biology, but contingent on social factors, which is a fancy way of saying what I already said; biological factors still matter. Quote:
Despite your awkward examples (I've seen a tampon being put in, I think I would probably figure it out...), I see what you're saying. You're arguing something completely different to my point. I'm not going to argue against the fact that I would not possess much of the knowledge necessary to act as a woman would within the social constraints of society. That wasn't the type of transition I was referring to. I was referring to psychological transition and the ability to cope with your new challenges. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
My dog would notice that he no longer had his penis, yes. But he would be about as upset about it as when he got neutered. He didn't understand it, but they were gone, and that was it.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I feel like it's a huge mistake to treat "society" as somehow separate from the underlying biology. What do you think composes a society?
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Well I am assuming that we are talking about Western society. If you look at the Middle East, how does covering a woman's face have anything to do with biology? And yet that is their social construct around women. I wouldn't know how to conduct myself as a woman in the ME any more than you men would.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
If I woke up as a woman, it would depend on whether or not my brain was also shifted to that of a woman's. Obviously having a female mind with a female body would be easier to handle than a male mind in a female body.
And yeah, there would be a lot of "book-knowledge" and experience I'd be without regarding stuff like menstruation and whatnot, but that sort of thing is merely transitional learning. The psychological implications would be much more profound IMO. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
But if you woke up with a "female" mind then you wouldn't be you and doesn't that make this entire thread pointless?
You guys are arguing against all of the social implications (which IMO would be the most difficult to adjust to) and saying that "well, my brain would change too", so that really kind of ends the discussion right there. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I'm just trying to understand why people on this forum are trying to undermine how complicated gender is. Our socialization begins at birth. You can't just figure it out after being thrust into another gender.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I'm still confused as to how over 54% of the participants in the polling answered "no" to the question. I can only assume a majority of them didn't fully understand the question. The only two ways I could see someone being content with an unanticipated sex change would be if either:
- the person was suffering from gender identity issues prior to this hypothetical scenario or if: - the person's brain chemistry changed with their respective sex.. and even in which case, would take a while to adjust to I'm curious as to what other reasons would cause so many people to be so sure that they could cope in a situation like this.. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
This. Thank you. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I'd say I'm a straight male, even though I know 100% straight doesn't really exist in my opinion, so feel somewhat weird when people say "are you straight?". Its like yes, but no? Even though I've never had feelings for another guy.
I feel I somewhat have female thinking, but I'm happy being myself (Male) Of course I'd have a problem if I woke up with female parts, as I've gotten used to being the way I am, and have grown to knowing the ways of myself, being a guy. I don't think "oh I wish I was a girl" The thing is, I don't feel comfortable flirting as a guy. It's never something I've really done. I'd much prefer if girls came up to me than the other way around, as girls are so used to happening. They pretty much choose who they want based on who walks up to them... That may seem odd, but I just don't like the concept that the guy has to go to the female, and the thought of asking a girl out is automatically telling the girl you are interested in her sexually, and want to end up having sex with her. I've neither felt comfortable talking about who I would "bang", etc with other guys for this reason even though as a guy, its how I "should be". It's not really the way I am, even though I do, at least in part have this male suggestion in my system that thats the way I would like to be. I do of course have a sexual system, and I do get feelings of attraction for girls, but its the thought of them thinking something about you, that I do not like somehow, even though I do think the way guys do most of the time. It's odd. It's like I have 2 heads. What I do, because I'm shy or whatever, and what I would have liked to have done which tends to want to overpower what I do. I feel that if I listened to the other part, I would of had a relationship by now. Something which at the age of 23, I've never had. Its definietly the fact I've lived as a guy for so long though, that I wouldn't want to wake up as a female. I'm as I am, and I've gotten used to the way I am, so to answer the question finally. Yes, I would have identity issues. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Since you guys summarized most of the problems from gender switch, I wanted to know your opinion on some things :
First : What if someone who really wanted to switch sex woke up with its "dream" realized (without the hormonal problems that make every situation almost impossible to live) ? Considering he would be euphoric on the moment, do you think the fact he has been since its birth from the other gender will still involve problems on the long term ? Or will it perfectly stick because of the identity problem its previous gender caused to that person ? Second : Imagine that an homosexual person that doesn't accept its homosexuality is confronted to this context : Do you think it will be the same as above, aka causing an euphory because of the fact its main problem have been solved ? What about the identity complex then ? |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Yes, my identity would be "changed" but that might not necessarily be a long term issue. I don't think I would find it problematic in the long run even if it changes who I am and how I think. I am a rather feminine male in the first place so tipping it over to a masculine female isn't a huge mental change.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I'd pick "them/they" before I referred to a person as "it"
-random comment from someone who only read the last post- And you have a bad english teacher. (don't even think about pointing out the irony that I started that sentence with a conjunction x.x) |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Your English teacher is wrong. A person is never referred to as "it". And it is also improper to use "they", although I use it all the time. You have to pick either male or female when talking about a hypothetical person or use the "he or she" method which can get annoying.
For example, "If this person is gay, then HE should accept HIMSELF." OR "If this person is gay, then HE or SHE should accept HIM or HERSELF." |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Well, you both could have told that to me by private messaging since it's off-topic but thanks for the rectification anyway.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Hey, I'm not judging you. I'm judging your stupid English teacher.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I have found that the official english grammar rules in places such as england are actually different. It could very well be proper to use it that way. I wouldn't.. but I live in the US.
I remember getting into an arguing with someone who said "Rhapsody are awesome" rather than "Rhapsody is awesome". I kept telling her that the band rhapsody isn't a plural so you wouldn't use "are". But apparently in england a group under a single name is considered a plural. I only mention this because it looks as though scylax lives in france. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Yeah, I'd say "are" as well because I see the group as being many people so, it is plural.
I don't specify it as is because that would be talking about the band name, not the band? I'm from the UK :p Plus, I'd never say it either. I think if someone who is gay wanted to change sexes, then yes, they'd probably be happy about it. I would still think they would have problems accepting the change though... They would though be considered to be a heterosexual female; not a homosexual male as they were previously, which could change a lot of other events, especially in the dating scene |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I know I've left my thread for awhile, been busy lately. As such, I'm going to give my 2 cents before I've read the entire thread, but will answer 1 specific thing (which is where I've stopped reading):
"I'm still confused as to how over 54% of the participants in the polling answered "no" to the question. I can only assume a majority of them didn't fully understand the question. The only two ways I could see someone being content with an unanticipated sex change would be if either: - the person was suffering from gender identity issues prior to this hypothetical scenario or if: - the person's brain chemistry changed with their respective sex.. and even in which case, would take a while to adjust to I'm curious as to what other reasons would cause so many people to be so sure that they could cope in a situation like this.." I answered no, and I am not transgendered. I feel I'm a woman because I'm in a woman's body, but that I feel I am a human first and foremost, and being human defines me...being a human male or human female seem so similar to me. Let me tell you this, when I first got on the internet when I was, like, 13, and I'd play games and chat or just go into chatrooms, it was all ASL the first question. (age sex location, not advanced squad leader.) Often I'd go into places and refuse to say if I were male or female. It would soon become a topic of note in chat, and the conclusion that most people came to was that I was a guy who was likely transgendered. I am not transgendered, nor am I a guy. At that point, I remember not even being sure what a transexual was, at least what the word meant, but I was disappointed that I still had to choose a sex, and that my view that gender/sex isn't all that important wasn't more universal. (Of course, I was even more disappointed when the internet became just a branch for what most people have in their everyday life, and photos became popular. I want to be me for my mind, not my body, and the internet allows for this amazing freedom.) I feel like I've more or less caved into disclosing my gender, partially because its easier, partially because I get pissy when people think I'm a man and I feel like I have to stick up for my sex. And its not like I'm an asexual person either, or that I'm attracted to both men and women. I find sex 'gets in the way' of living more often than not, and it IS frustrating when I always have thoughts of 'is he flirting, am I being perceived of flirting, is this more than just platonic for someone?' getting in the way of otherwise good conversations. I mean, I love being in love just like anyone else, but its still a pain. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Well, seeing as I have more time, and reading that most of the rest of the conversation is about the poor wording of english...actually, it really bothers me that I can't refer to myself or others without there being a gender assigned to it. I use 'they' and 'them' for that, because 'it' is terrible, and he/she is unwieldly. 'They and them' sound alright to me grammatically, and if we all just use it enough, it'll stick! Easiest thing to do IMO, easier than adding a whole new set of articles.
Kilroy: For certain my poll is made for non-TG, because the majority of people aren't TG. I already heamed and hawed over how to word what I wanted to ask for like 20 minutes. In hindsight I should have put a 3rd poll choice, as I very much wanted to hear from TG people. I realize I'm very much representing my upbringing as a fairly young canadian woman when I can say my gender doesn't matter. In fact, I've very often thought that there would be fewer TG males if current north american society were as open about men doing womanly things than vice-versa. But clearly this is not the case, judging from you saying you really do feel like you're in the wrong body, and that you call me out when I make it solely an issue of mistaken identity. There are very clearly non-TG who feel like you do too. I just find it so...weird to have that issue with your body. For example, sadly and amazingly, until I was told about the birds and the bees, I wasn't even really aware I HAD a vagina. I knew I had a womb, but that's not the same thing. I think I thought babies were born out of your mouth? Pee doesn't come from there, poo doesn't come from there, it doesn't get breezy down there, and even to look down there, there's just a bunch of folds...I had no idea I had a sizable hole in my anatomy. Also, as you've probably heard, I've got no fingers on one of my hands. I was born that way. Kids often come up and ask me 'how does it feel', and I can only answer 'it feels normal, just like my other hand'. In this case I have a comparison hand, and even that doesn't make my fingerless hand feel wrong. I've only just thought about this, but I'm sure reasons like these are why I never really got the 'I'm in the wrong body' thing. That said, I am very surprised, and delighted :-), that the polls are split about 50/50. I thought 90%+ would say 'yes', and that there'd be, like, 10 votes. I've also cleared up a few things in my head. Some people feel very strongly that they are either a man or a woman, and can't see how that cannot really matter...not just to them, but to everyone else too. I never really new that, and I'm very happy my thought excersise worked the way I wanted it to, (instead of backfiring terribly like they usually do for me.) And hopefully those people will actually think about how so many people don't feel that way too, without just thinking them dumb. I do want to also add that, if I were to suddenly become a man, and I happened to biologically start being attracted to women because of it, it would make the transition harder, but I still think I'd be able to get used to to that. The assumption that I would be a gay man is dependent on biology not being strong enough to overcome the previous life experiences. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Quote:
Also, the story about your hand is pretty fascinating. It reintroduces complexity into the issue that I had thought I had resolved. I'll just say that I will respect you at your word about your feelings if you can do the same for me, because right now it seems that we're both in a position where we could resolve our own feelings into the universal norm if we were willing to dismiss the other person's feelings in some way, and that's an unhelpful situation to try and capitalize off of. Quote:
It would be like if I made a poll asking if the reader had hypothetically been born without fingers on one hand, and with fingers on another, would this bother them? Everyone who voted yes on that would be dismissing your own feelings as invalid, and they would be doing it without having even the slightest experience with the subject. And again, your word choice and general train of thought throughout this topic has been extremely offensive in many places. It makes it difficult for me to believe this topic wasn't specifically constructed to slight TG people. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
As a lesbian and as someone heavily involved in the LGBT community, both socially and academically, I have learned not to expect heterosexual people to know or understand "gender queer" jargon and vocabulary. I really don't think people are trying to be offensive. I myself might come off as offensive because I don't advertise my sexuality and it's difficult to listen to someone's point of view if you truly believe they can't relate to you.
It's also difficult to NOT be offensive (even if unintentionally) when you have very little to absolutely no knowledge about a topic but have already formed an opinion about it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and as long as they are not being outwardly and purposely aggressive about it, then I let people stew in their own ignorance. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Quote:
On the topic of the thread, I think gender and sex defines us all of us. Hormones play a large part in the way we think, view things and feel. I think because of this alone nobody can say gender doesn't play a role in how we're defined. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I would start a nature versus nurture argument but I feel like it would be beating a dead horse.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
32 users would be better suited as sausage filling than people (editors note: it's the people who voted no)
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Telling everybody their wrong and you're right when people are offering educated opinions just makes you look completely and utterly retarded. Just sayin'
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
"educated"?
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
"a personal belief or judgment that is NOT founded on proof or certainty" |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
lol looks like I did. Regardless an opinion that's not based off any knowledge or reason is worthless.
Also Kilroy, would you like to tell us why you're opinion is superior to all others? I would perhaps take you seriously if you offered proof while bashing other opinions I'd perhaps listen to you but you just tell people they're wrong and stupid without really giving any sort. I'm not sure if you're "trolling" or just really pissy because you have some sort of deep-seeded feelings with these kinds of topics. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I would also like to point out that while many people on this forum really have no idea what they are talking about in regards to sex and gender, I appreciate that people are trying or are even taking the time to think about it long enough to respond to posts like these. I don't know many males "IRL" that like to discuss the topic of gender or sexuality. The critical thinking section is filled with topics about sexuality, gender, men versus women, etc.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
How can you even make that kind of assumption? |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Just because a person does not identify as TG does not mean that at some point in their life they have not felt congruent to their sex.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Meaning what exactly? Be specific. That could mean multiple things.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Meaning that just like many if not most people are sexually confused at some point in their lives, many people may have gender identity issues. I myself have always had severe difficulty falling into the role of a "woman" in society. I have even felt physically awkward in my own feminine body at many times in my life. I have made it very clear to myself and to my family that I will not be wearing dresses or feminine clothing anymore because on a physical and emotional level, I can't do it. However, I don't identify as transgendered. I would say I am leaning towards more on the androgynous side. I don't think this means that I can't relate to you on any level. I think most people can, but most people are too scared to admit it or don't know themselves well enough to even realize what they are feeling.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I actually know 3 TG people (and somebody who wants to go through with it although only over the internet), and have discussed this kind of stuff in depth as I find it pretty interesting. One of them is a major figure in the Toronto LGBT community. My girlfriend also doesn't feel congruent with her gender although doesn't want to be TG at all. I base my opinion off what these people have told me, keeping in mind I've only talked to a small sample of the TG population. Assuming nobody knows that they're talking about is pretty retarded.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
"You're making another uncritical assumption here, and that is that heterosexuality is a product of biology where homosexuality is not."
No, I'm not saying that at all. You can't take what I say for myself to mean that I think that everyone feels that way, or turn that into an assumption of what homosexuality is. I doubt a biological change late in life would have the same effect that biology in the womb has. For instance, we alter the biology of men or women to change their sex, but do we even have any success of changing someone from straight to gay, or a much more sought after practice, gay to straight? Even if at some point someone did manage to actually change someone from gay to straight, it would likely be a result of brain-washing and not biological changes. On another note though, I've a womean who specifically said "I'm done with men, all the ones I've known have hurt me", and if they never considered themselves lesbian before, at least act like they are now, and want to be considered that way. I in fact strongly believe homosexuality is a result of biology. I assume that TG is as well, although I have not really read as much about it as I have homosexuality. I will not ignore the social part of our genders and sexuality though, nor ignore that what we do may not be congruent with what we actually feel. All that said, which sex I would like after a sex change is really a side-note to what I feel like I would be. "It would be like if I made a poll asking if the reader had hypothetically been born without fingers on one hand, and with fingers on another, would this bother them? Everyone who voted yes on that would be dismissing your own feelings as invalid, and they would be doing it without having even the slightest experience with the subject." Firstly, I do find areas in my life where I would like fingers, and hence even if it feels normal, it doesn't mean I don't want them. Secondly, regardless of that first sentence in the paragraph and all the implications it may or may not have that I haven't thought about yet, and on a much more general note, what someone else feels doesn't invalidate what I feel, nor does it work the other way around. IMO that's a life lesson everyone should learn. It acknowledges the fact that we are individuals who may not fully understand one another. It also stops people from getting hurt, while still allowing people to actually have opinions about things. If we don't do that, then we're saying that only guru's should have opinions about things. Better to have an opinion than basically be brain-dead about something, or to just agree with someone because they're the expert. We all are assigned a sex and have a gender, we all have some experience in this. I think Rubin0's experience of not wanting to dress and act feminine, while still not saying 'I want a penis and balls to go with that' shows that not everyone who feels like they're not their gender feels like they're in the wrong body...an experience it seems you could never have. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
"This doesn't mesh with what you've been telling us."
How so? I know that question sounds goading, but I really need to know why that doesn't necessarily mesh. This is really whole other can of worms to open for me though, and really an aside. Despite my best efforts, I find myself thinking of most people online who aren't obviously female, as male. Its like some ingrained thing, and it drives me bonkers, and I know that other people experience it too, and I really want to overcome that. I feel that if I say I'm female, because I don't ooze femininity, this will help that situation just a little maybe. That said, and I know this doesn't make me any less of a pig or whatever it is that you likely think of me for being so dumb with not understand TG people, (even though you're being very patient) but I remember when Kilroy was never openly either gender. I probably thought of you as male then, (even though I think I specifically tried to treat you gender neutral) but I of course thought of you as female when you said you were, and I still think of you as female now. It is definitely odd to think of you in a man's body. I also really want to say before my previous post gets nerves wound up, in that I really never intended to get into generalizations about gender and sex, because that will undoubtably end up in failure to understand anything. Again, it still astounds me that the votes are so evenly split. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Quote:
Transgender people experience real discrimination that effects access to jobs, housing, and healthcare and dimishes their quality of life in many other capacities. That discrimination has its roots in ideas and in opinions. So when you say that an opinion can't hurt another person if they don't let it, well, that's not only false but harmful, because it puts the blame on the victimized demographic for occupying their current position in the world. I honestly don't think you should be allowed to have an opinion about things you have no experience with when it comes to people. There's this fundamentally flawed idea that all opinions are equal, and that has the effect of privileging the majority and enabling discrimination, because they're entitled to their opinion about the minority, and also to act on that opinion. Opinions become action, and a disenfranchised minority can't turn their own opinions into action very effectively because they're denied access to the means to do so, through the actualization of the opinions which the majority have about them. This perpetuates a cycle of inequality, and it has it's roots in a fundamental truth. Minority -> Minority experiences: grounded opinion about minority Majority -> ~Minority experiences: ungrounded opinion about minority This isn't antithetical to discourse. Just the opposite. You can't have a discourse when you can't understand the antecedent you're referring to. So no, I don't think you should have an opinion about this, because an opinion about an unknown subject is senseless by requirement. Quote:
Quote:
Now, you have yet to clarify what you mean by "identity", but (and forgive me for trying to speak for you Rubin) it would seem that under at least some interpretation of "identity", Rubin has had issues with defining an identity in relation to her sex and societal expectations for her sex. It seems that genderqueer people of any variety, whether TG or not, are liable to answer yes to at least one of the three counts you offerred and therefore have issues based on an incongruence between sex and gender, even if it isn't as severe in all cases as it is with TG people. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Quote:
<3 Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
I'm not really looking into getting into any sort of argument, you'd probably prove your point a lot better with a better attitude. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
buh? Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I'm not talking about how you felt or what your life experiences were. I'm talking about TG people in general. I'm not telling you what you feel or how you should feel, I'm simply saying everybody is different and will have different experiences.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Trans-gendered people are horrible people. A gang of them broke into my house and stole all my belongings and killed my family. I am not the only victim as it's happened to most of my neighbors. TG people are terrible people and if you disagree you're retarded because you haven't gone through the horrors of dealing with them like I have. Every single one of my neighbors has the same opinion although I've only talked to a few of them about it. Stop being such a spoiled prick. I don't care you've talked to other neighbors about this and they think differently, it happened to me so I'm right so you can **** right off.
Seriously though what you're doing is like telling people men can't have an opinion on feminism and straight people can't have an opinion on gays. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Regardless of my ill-conceived example tell me why any opinion I have on trans-gendered people that isn't yours is automatically incorrect? Like I've said before I've talked to a few people experiencing this human phenomenon out of curiosity so what if I hold one of their opinions true and it differs from yours? Is it still wrong? What if I listen to how each TG person I know feels and compile their opinions, along with applicable proved facts? Your points may be a bit more valuable as I would assume you've thought about this subject a lot more, and probably more seriously, but then again I could also argue that because you're experiencing it yourself you feel entitled to bring a very strong bias to the table. In the end you are one trans-gendered individual and only you can tell us the way you feel and nobody can really say anything against that, but like you said you can't be their spokesperson, which should also mean you don't tell everybody their wrong simply cause their not trans-gendered. It seems you think I'm trying to disprove your life experiences but I'm not, I'm just saying I can have an opinion too. If this applies to gays to then you're a ****ing retard and a biggot cause I fall into that category lol.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Quote:
Quote:
Also, that's not what I meant by human phenomenon. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
You disregarded my experiences (which are legitimate) completely and yet went out of your way to contradict Fido. How convenient for you.
Just because you are experiencing this does not make you the all knowing all seeing expert on the issue. I myself am not an expert about everything that has to do with being a lesbian because everybody's experiences are different. Edit: I just saw in your past posts that you mentioned what i said while talking to another person. I'm going back to read it now. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
"Now, you have yet to clarify what you mean by "identity", but (and forgive me for trying to speak for you Rubin) it would seem that under at least some interpretation of "identity", Rubin has had issues with defining an identity in relation to her sex and societal expectations for her sex."
But isn't much of what it means to be transgendered has to do with social expectations? Transgendered people that I have encountered are often very set on "passing". This means for transgendered women at least, that they grow their hair out, wear feminine clothing, and "act" like women. These things are all socially set. The color pink is not naturally feminine. Blue is not naturally masculine. That is what we are taught. We learn these behaviors and learn how to look throughout life, I wouldn't necessarily call them natural characteristics of women. As far as on a physical level, if we didn't put people into these two strict categories and we never saw each other naked, we might never put such an emphasis on having either a penis or a vagina. Hell, I would bet we wouldn't look as differently as we do now because we shape our bodies (if even subconsciously) in order to meet social expectations. My vagina doesn't make me any more a woman (according to what society says is a woman) as my short hair makes me a man. But again, those are just my views on gender and everyone is effected by society differently. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Well for one, I think this topic got a little off subject. It seems to now be about whether you are experienced enough to offer your own opinion on the subject of TG people. Which I don;t recall the poll actually being about. If you woke up a different sex, would you wake up with identity issues. Whether a person is wrong or right really isn't the question. It's a person's take on themselves and whether or not they think that they could relate easier or if they would have trouble. Sure, the question is a bit obtuse as it may depend on what happens during this change and what else does or doesn't change, but what it boils down to is, yes or no. That's the whole point of this thread, along with some opinions on why you would think in either direction. This wasn't intended to be some scientifically proven discussion (correct me if I'm wrong). It was meant to showcase that some people think that they might have an easier time with a drastic change than other people. It's all about opinion. And less about fact.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Disregarding the physiological and social implications of such a change, as well as any other technical problems that might arise as a consequence as I become accustomed to my new body, and any philosophical reflections I might have? No. I would not have "identity issues".
Life is mundane. My "gender", so loosely defined, is arbitrary. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
Killroy, it's not rational to go by "I've gone through it therefor I'm right and you're wrong". Enjoy your shitty logic and ignorance. You get all pissed off because people "assume" things too much but you sure assume a lot about others. I'm wondering if you're retarded or just trolling.
|
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
oh and best post of the thread btw
I don't really think much of my gender, but the fact is I feel anatomically incorrect. I don't know if you're familiar with computers, but being TG for me is sort of like having a piece of hardware physically installed on a platform when you don't have drivers for it. I've never been in a romantic relationship, or even tried for one, because I wouldn't know what to do with myself in one. But people talk a lot about love, there are expectations about it, it gets played up a lot and people who don't experience it are viewed as abnormal or inferior. So again, there are compounding psychological and social effects from not being able to have romantic encounters. I tried to teach myself to be ok with the thought of being chaste for life, and it took away a lot of the stress, but every now and then I would catch glimpses of what other people were getting out of love, or I would find myself attracted to someone, or even just generically aroused. And again this plays into expectations. So there's a combination effect that makes the inability to have relationships into something extremely alienating. Everyone you know is either in a relationship, has been in one or has it as their goal to be in one, and you've given up on it because you don't have it in you to get into a relationship in your current body. And so you're already the odd one out, but then throw in the fact that everyone is expecting you to be dating, to throw your two cents in on "would you hit it" conversations and to talk about people you're attracted to, and it can be offputting to other people as well. And the first assumption is always that you're just gay, because that would be an easy answer, and it would still make you relateable because you would still have those same kinds of feelings, priorities, goals as other people, just directed towards a different gender. So again you get misread, and feel lonely, and that's just if people continue to associate with you under the false impressions they've generated. Nevermind when they get so weirded out they just decide not to deal with you. But basically, there are very real expectations for different sexes, and there are also equivalent expectations for both sexes which are hard to fulfill when you don't identify with that sex. Having body parts you don't know what to do with, and in lieu of body parts which you would know what to do with is upsetting beyond description. If anyone has ever broken a bone, and a bone they use in the course of their day to day life, and waited for it to heal, they're probably familiar with a feeling of being trapped or being disempowered. Except in the case of TG people it's not just that you aren't able to use something you have well developed insticts to use, it's that it's been replaced with another thing which is completely useless. I could write a lot more but I don't want to bombard you with a wall of text, which this already somewhat is. As an aside, as a result of feminism social expectations for women may have grown laxer, allowing women more freedom of expression in terms of gender presentation, but being an effiminate man is still very much enforced against in ways that being a masculine women is not. So your idea that there are no specific roles for the genders is extremely gynocentric, and also eurocentric in the sense that women's liberation doesn't really extend to the third world. |
Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
I would certainly have some identity issues. I have a "look", I suppose, and that's part of my identity.
But it's a small part. My identity stems from my views first and everything else later. If asked to define myself, "rationalist" would be the first adjective, followed by a few other belief-related words, followed by my occupation/age. I don't think "man" would show up -- not because I'm against defining myself that way, but because I don't tend to think much about maleness or femaleness. |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:52 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution