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-   -   Does your gender or sex define you? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=117322)

Kage06 02-8-2011 05:09 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Yeah, I'd say "are" as well because I see the group as being many people so, it is plural.
I don't specify it as is because that would be talking about the band name, not the band?
I'm from the UK :p

Plus, I'd never say it either.

I think if someone who is gay wanted to change sexes, then yes, they'd probably be happy about it.
I would still think they would have problems accepting the change though...

They would though be considered to be a heterosexual female; not a homosexual male as they were previously, which could change a lot of other events, especially in the dating scene

Cavernio 02-12-2011 09:10 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
I know I've left my thread for awhile, been busy lately. As such, I'm going to give my 2 cents before I've read the entire thread, but will answer 1 specific thing (which is where I've stopped reading):

"I'm still confused as to how over 54% of the participants in the polling answered "no" to the question. I can only assume a majority of them didn't fully understand the question. The only two ways I could see someone being content with an unanticipated sex change would be if either:

- the person was suffering from gender identity issues prior to this hypothetical scenario

or if:

- the person's brain chemistry changed with their respective sex.. and even in which case, would take a while to adjust to

I'm curious as to what other reasons would cause so many people to be so sure that they could cope in a situation like this.."

I answered no, and I am not transgendered. I feel I'm a woman because I'm in a woman's body, but that I feel I am a human first and foremost, and being human defines me...being a human male or human female seem so similar to me.

Let me tell you this, when I first got on the internet when I was, like, 13, and I'd play games and chat or just go into chatrooms, it was all ASL the first question. (age sex location, not advanced squad leader.) Often I'd go into places and refuse to say if I were male or female. It would soon become a topic of note in chat, and the conclusion that most people came to was that I was a guy who was likely transgendered. I am not transgendered, nor am I a guy. At that point, I remember not even being sure what a transexual was, at least what the word meant, but I was disappointed that I still had to choose a sex, and that my view that gender/sex isn't all that important wasn't more universal. (Of course, I was even more disappointed when the internet became just a branch for what most people have in their everyday life, and photos became popular. I want to be me for my mind, not my body, and the internet allows for this amazing freedom.) I feel like I've more or less caved into disclosing my gender, partially because its easier, partially because I get pissy when people think I'm a man and I feel like I have to stick up for my sex.
And its not like I'm an asexual person either, or that I'm attracted to both men and women. I find sex 'gets in the way' of living more often than not, and it IS frustrating when I always have thoughts of 'is he flirting, am I being perceived of flirting, is this more than just platonic for someone?' getting in the way of otherwise good conversations. I mean, I love being in love just like anyone else, but its still a pain.

Cavernio 02-12-2011 09:53 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Well, seeing as I have more time, and reading that most of the rest of the conversation is about the poor wording of english...actually, it really bothers me that I can't refer to myself or others without there being a gender assigned to it. I use 'they' and 'them' for that, because 'it' is terrible, and he/she is unwieldly. 'They and them' sound alright to me grammatically, and if we all just use it enough, it'll stick! Easiest thing to do IMO, easier than adding a whole new set of articles.

Kilroy: For certain my poll is made for non-TG, because the majority of people aren't TG. I already heamed and hawed over how to word what I wanted to ask for like 20 minutes. In hindsight I should have put a 3rd poll choice, as I very much wanted to hear from TG people. I realize I'm very much representing my upbringing as a fairly young canadian woman when I can say my gender doesn't matter. In fact, I've very often thought that there would be fewer TG males if current north american society were as open about men doing womanly things than vice-versa. But clearly this is not the case, judging from you saying you really do feel like you're in the wrong body, and that you call me out when I make it solely an issue of mistaken identity. There are very clearly non-TG who feel like you do too. I just find it so...weird to have that issue with your body. For example, sadly and amazingly, until I was told about the birds and the bees, I wasn't even really aware I HAD a vagina. I knew I had a womb, but that's not the same thing. I think I thought babies were born out of your mouth? Pee doesn't come from there, poo doesn't come from there, it doesn't get breezy down there, and even to look down there, there's just a bunch of folds...I had no idea I had a sizable hole in my anatomy. Also, as you've probably heard, I've got no fingers on one of my hands. I was born that way. Kids often come up and ask me 'how does it feel', and I can only answer 'it feels normal, just like my other hand'. In this case I have a comparison hand, and even that doesn't make my fingerless hand feel wrong. I've only just thought about this, but I'm sure reasons like these are why I never really got the 'I'm in the wrong body' thing.

That said, I am very surprised, and delighted :-), that the polls are split about 50/50. I thought 90%+ would say 'yes', and that there'd be, like, 10 votes.

I've also cleared up a few things in my head. Some people feel very strongly that they are either a man or a woman, and can't see how that cannot really matter...not just to them, but to everyone else too. I never really new that, and I'm very happy my thought excersise worked the way I wanted it to, (instead of backfiring terribly like they usually do for me.) And hopefully those people will actually think about how so many people don't feel that way too, without just thinking them dumb.

I do want to also add that, if I were to suddenly become a man, and I happened to biologically start being attracted to women because of it, it would make the transition harder, but I still think I'd be able to get used to to that. The assumption that I would be a gay man is dependent on biology not being strong enough to overcome the previous life experiences.

Kilroy_x 02-12-2011 10:24 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3415942)
I feel like I've more or less caved into disclosing my gender, partially because its easier, partially because I get pissy when people think I'm a man and I feel like I have to stick up for my sex.

This doesn't mesh with what you've been telling us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3415962)
Kilroy: For certain my poll is made for non-TG, because the majority of people aren't TG. I already heamed and hawed over how to word what I wanted to ask for like 20 minutes. In hindsight I should have put a 3rd poll choice, as I very much wanted to hear from TG people. I realize I'm very much representing my upbringing as a fairly young canadian woman when I can say my gender doesn't matter. In fact, I've very often thought that there would be fewer TG males if current north american society were as open about men doing womanly things than vice-versa*. But clearly this is not the case, judging from you saying you really do feel like you're in the wrong body, and that you call me out when I make it solely an issue of mistaken identity. There are very clearly non-TG who feel like you do too. I just find it so...weird to have that issue with your body. For example, sadly and amazingly, until I was told about the birds and the bees, I wasn't even really aware I HAD a vagina. I knew I had a womb, but that's not the same thing. Pee doesn't come from there, poo doesn't come from there, it doesn't get breezy down there, and even to look down there, there's just a bunch of folds...I had no idea I had a sizable hole in my anatomy. Also, as you've probably heard, I've got no fingers on one of my hands. I was born that way. Kids often come up and ask me 'how does it feel', and I can only answer 'it feels normal, just like my other hand'. In this case I have a comparison hand, and even that doesn't make my fingerless hand feel wrong. I've only just thought about this, but I'm sure reasons like these are why I never really got the 'I'm in the wrong body' thing.

* You mean TG woman.

Also, the story about your hand is pretty fascinating. It reintroduces complexity into the issue that I had thought I had resolved. I'll just say that I will respect you at your word about your feelings if you can do the same for me, because right now it seems that we're both in a position where we could resolve our own feelings into the universal norm if we were willing to dismiss the other person's feelings in some way, and that's an unhelpful situation to try and capitalize off of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3415962)
I do want to also add that, if I were to suddenly become a man, and I happened to biologically start being attracted to women because of it, it would make the transition harder, but I still think I'd be able to get used to to that. The assumption that I would be a gay man is dependent on biology not being strong enough to overcome the previous life experiences.

You're making another uncritical assumption here, and that is that heterosexuality is a product of biology where homosexuality is not. This is extremely heterosexist, not to mention unscientific, and it also highlights a general problem with this discussion. You're literally just guessing at what it would feel like to wake up in a different sex body, and what the implications of this would be. Granted I'm sure your "thought experiment" is quite entertaining for a lot of people, but you should really stop for a second and realize that what you're doing is using vague ungrounded guesswork to de-legitimize the feelings of a minority group.

It would be like if I made a poll asking if the reader had hypothetically been born without fingers on one hand, and with fingers on another, would this bother them? Everyone who voted yes on that would be dismissing your own feelings as invalid, and they would be doing it without having even the slightest experience with the subject.

And again, your word choice and general train of thought throughout this topic has been extremely offensive in many places. It makes it difficult for me to believe this topic wasn't specifically constructed to slight TG people.

Rubin0 02-12-2011 03:35 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
As a lesbian and as someone heavily involved in the LGBT community, both socially and academically, I have learned not to expect heterosexual people to know or understand "gender queer" jargon and vocabulary. I really don't think people are trying to be offensive. I myself might come off as offensive because I don't advertise my sexuality and it's difficult to listen to someone's point of view if you truly believe they can't relate to you.


It's also difficult to NOT be offensive (even if unintentionally) when you have very little to absolutely no knowledge about a topic but have already formed an opinion about it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and as long as they are not being outwardly and purposely aggressive about it, then I let people stew in their own ignorance.

fido123 02-12-2011 06:18 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3416071)
It's also difficult to NOT be offensive (even if unintentionally) when you have very little to absolutely no knowledge about a topic but have already formed an opinion about it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and as long as they are not being outwardly and purposely aggressive about it, then I let people stew in their own ignorance.

Problem is people don't understand what an opinion is:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Google
Definitions of opinion on the Web:

a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty

Instead most people make assumptions and wave them around as if they were opinions making them total idiots.


On the topic of the thread, I think gender and sex defines us all of us. Hormones play a large part in the way we think, view things and feel. I think because of this alone nobody can say gender doesn't play a role in how we're defined.

Rubin0 02-13-2011 12:13 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
I would start a nature versus nurture argument but I feel like it would be beating a dead horse.

Kilroy_x 02-13-2011 11:56 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
32 users would be better suited as sausage filling than people (editors note: it's the people who voted no)

fido123 02-13-2011 03:04 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Telling everybody their wrong and you're right when people are offering educated opinions just makes you look completely and utterly retarded. Just sayin'

Kilroy_x 02-13-2011 04:17 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
"educated"?

Rubin0 02-13-2011 04:30 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3416155)
Problem is people don't understand what an opinion is:


Did you read that incorrectly?

"a personal belief or judgment that is NOT founded on proof or certainty"

fido123 02-13-2011 10:24 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
lol looks like I did. Regardless an opinion that's not based off any knowledge or reason is worthless.

Also Kilroy, would you like to tell us why you're opinion is superior to all others? I would perhaps take you seriously if you offered proof while bashing other opinions I'd perhaps listen to you but you just tell people they're wrong and stupid without really giving any sort. I'm not sure if you're "trolling" or just really pissy because you have some sort of deep-seeded feelings with these kinds of topics.

Rubin0 02-14-2011 01:52 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
I would also like to point out that while many people on this forum really have no idea what they are talking about in regards to sex and gender, I appreciate that people are trying or are even taking the time to think about it long enough to respond to posts like these. I don't know many males "IRL" that like to discuss the topic of gender or sexuality. The critical thinking section is filled with topics about sexuality, gender, men versus women, etc.

Kilroy_x 02-14-2011 09:28 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3416804)
Also Kilroy, would you like to tell us why you're opinion is superior to all others?

Because I'm literally the only person here who knows what they're talking about? I have direct experience with said subject. Other people do not. Nobody else here has firsthand experience with having a physical sex incongruent to ones gender. THAT'S KIND OF A BIG DEAL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3416804)
I would perhaps take you seriously if you offered proof while bashing other opinions I'd perhaps listen to you but you just tell people they're wrong and stupid without really giving any sort.

I have given reason repeatedly. See above.

Rubin0 02-14-2011 10:04 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x (Post 3417115)
Nobody else here has firsthand experience with having a physical sex incongruent to ones gender.


How can you even make that kind of assumption?

Kilroy_x 02-14-2011 10:14 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3417120)
How can you even make that kind of assumption?

Well it's a sound bet at least, considering most estimates put TG people at 2% of the population at most. Assuming a sample size of as many people as voted, ie 63, we would expect that most likely one TG person would be posting here, IE me. If not then at most there are one or two others. Not like we'd find out because I doubt they would out themselves.

Rubin0 02-14-2011 10:17 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Just because a person does not identify as TG does not mean that at some point in their life they have not felt congruent to their sex.

Kilroy_x 02-14-2011 10:22 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Meaning what exactly? Be specific. That could mean multiple things.

Rubin0 02-14-2011 10:28 AM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
Meaning that just like many if not most people are sexually confused at some point in their lives, many people may have gender identity issues. I myself have always had severe difficulty falling into the role of a "woman" in society. I have even felt physically awkward in my own feminine body at many times in my life. I have made it very clear to myself and to my family that I will not be wearing dresses or feminine clothing anymore because on a physical and emotional level, I can't do it. However, I don't identify as transgendered. I would say I am leaning towards more on the androgynous side. I don't think this means that I can't relate to you on any level. I think most people can, but most people are too scared to admit it or don't know themselves well enough to even realize what they are feeling.

fido123 02-14-2011 10:18 PM

Re: Does your gender or sex define you?
 
I actually know 3 TG people (and somebody who wants to go through with it although only over the internet), and have discussed this kind of stuff in depth as I find it pretty interesting. One of them is a major figure in the Toronto LGBT community. My girlfriend also doesn't feel congruent with her gender although doesn't want to be TG at all. I base my opinion off what these people have told me, keeping in mind I've only talked to a small sample of the TG population. Assuming nobody knows that they're talking about is pretty retarded.


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