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-   -   Drugs (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=117071)

Rubin0 01-20-2011 07:56 PM

Re: Drugs
 
I don't support drugs. Every single person that I have ever known that has been into drugs has been a complete tool, especially when high. I have been stolen from countless times from a particular family member who could not kick his marijuana habit. I don't mean 5 or 10 bucks here and there. I mean I have lost game consoles, laptops, paintball gear, endless expensive shit that I know ended up in a pawn shop or some dealer's apartment. It eventually evolved into a more expensive prescription drug habit so he began to steal directly out of my grandmother's bank account. I am not going to say that drugs make you do stupid shit because he is the one that chose to do those things. Nobody makes you try drugs the first time, nobody makes you continue to taking them, and it's nobody's fault but your own when you are too addicted to stop.

People are going to do what they want regardless if it is legal or not, but that does not mean I have to associate with them. It just sucks that every single time I get on the road I am in danger of getting plowed into and killed by someone that has decided to get drunk/high/whatever altered state that they prefer because they are selfish assholes.

Yieldsign 01-20-2011 08:05 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3400885)
I don't support drugs. Every single person that I have ever known that has been into drugs has been a complete tool, especially when high. I have been stolen from countless times from a particular family member who could not kick his marijuana habit. I don't mean 5 or 10 bucks here and there. I mean I have lost game consoles, laptops, paintball gear, endless expensive shit that I know ended up in a pawn shop or some dealer's apartment. It eventually evolved into a more expensive prescription drug habit so he began to steal directly out of my grandmother's bank account. I am not going to say that drugs make you do stupid shit because he is the one that chose to do those things. Nobody makes you try drugs the first time, nobody makes you continue to taking them, and it's nobody's fault but your own when you are too addicted to stop.

People are going to do what they want regardless if it is legal or not, but that does not mean I have to associate with them. It just sucks that every single time I get on the road I am in danger of getting plowed into and killed by someone that has decided to get drunk/high/whatever altered state that they prefer because they are selfish assholes.

Have you read anything in this thread? This post is almost as bad rushy's. Anecdotal, correlative evidence is not good evidence. The majority of people who smoke marijuana do not steal from their family members.

No, you don't have to associate with people that steal your shit, but you also don't have be prejudicial toward everyone who shares one half of your correlation but most likely not the other.

And that a bit about high driving... *****ing facepalm*. Go get educated on the subject.

Rubin0 01-20-2011 08:12 PM

Re: Drugs
 
The OP asked what my opinion of drugs are, so I gave it.

Yieldsign 01-20-2011 08:31 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3400903)
The OP asked what my opinion of drugs are, so I gave it.

yeah the point of critical thinking is to posit subjective opinions with no basis.

oh wait, no it's not.

wtf is with people saying "diz iz my opinion" in this topic critical thinking is not for pure opinions

Rubin0 01-20-2011 08:48 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Okay so let me say this. Driving is a privilege, not a right. It's a privilege that can be and should be taken away if you are under the influence. You are responsible as a licensed driver to not drive under the influence, whether it be alcohol or another substance that alters your state of mind. Is that factual enough? A person saying that they drive better after smoking pot is subjective, but since it agrees with the rest of the pot heads' opinions on this board, that is an acceptable argument? Please.

aperson 01-20-2011 08:58 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3400923)
Okay so let me say this. Driving is a privilege, not a right. It's a privilege that can be and should be taken away if you are under the influence. You are responsible as a licensed driver to not drive under the influence, whether it be alcohol or another substance that alters your state of mind. Is that factual enough? A person saying that they drive better after smoking pot is subjective, but since it agrees with the rest of the pot heads' opinions on this board, that is an acceptable argument? Please.


Yet at the same time it's acceptable for someone who has never smoked weed to say that it is most definitely not okay to drive while stoned?


Rubin0 01-20-2011 09:01 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Did I ever say that I never smoked pot? I have and I would never have gotten behind the wheel like that.

aperson 01-20-2011 09:01 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3400931)
Did I ever say that I never smoked pot?

Cool so now where's your evidence that it makes you worse at driving?

Rubin0 01-20-2011 09:13 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Evidence? I can't believe I even have to provide evidence over something like this.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/pot_driving.htm

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...er.html?cat=71

http://missoulian.com/news/local/art...cc4c002e0.html

I will elaborate in a minute, I'm stuck on the phone with girlfriend aggro.

devonin 01-20-2011 09:40 PM

Re: Drugs
 
So far this has actually been a pretty reasonable drug thread.

Bear in mind a few things going forward though:

1/ Posts that are just "yeah" "no" or "I agree" are going to get deleted. If you have nothing to add, don't add anything.

2/ We as a site can't actually support the use of illegal drugs, and while you're free to talk about drugs as specifically as you like in the abstract, please don't post about how -you- do drugs, or that others -should- do drugs which are currently illegal.

Rubin0 01-20-2011 09:46 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aperson (Post 3400927)
Yet at the same time it's acceptable for someone who has never smoked weed to say that it is most definitely not okay to drive while stoned?


Also, wouldn't this be subjective? Just because one person never gets into a car accident after driving drunk numerous times makes it okay for every person? No.


I've never shot a gun before but that doesn't mean that I can't decipher whether shooting a person in the head is right or wrong.

Yieldsign 01-20-2011 11:52 PM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3400923)
Okay so let me say this. Driving is a privilege, not a right. It's a privilege that can be and should be taken away if you are under the influence. You are responsible as a licensed driver to not drive under the influence, whether it be alcohol or another substance that alters your state of mind. Is that factual enough? A person saying that they drive better after smoking pot is subjective, but since it agrees with the rest of the pot heads' opinions on this board, that is an acceptable argument? Please.

I don't see how "criminalize drugs" follows from "drugs impair driving" and "you are responsible to not drive under the influence." How about instead we make driving under the influence a crime (oh wait, it's called DUI and it is a crime) and revoke licenses when people do that (oh wait, we do!)? Seems like a pretty reasonable solution to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin
So far this has actually been a pretty reasonable drug thread.

Bear in mind a few things going forward though:

1/ Posts that are just "yeah" "no" or "I agree" are going to get deleted. If you have nothing to add, don't add anything.

2/ We as a site can't actually support the use of illegal drugs, and while you're free to talk about drugs as specifically as you like in the abstract, please don't post about how -you- do drugs, or that others -should- do drugs which are currently illegal.

Really, we have to use dumb "SWIM" acronyms? You know I don't think I've heard of a single forum being shut down or prosecuted because its members admitted to drug use. I mean, come on, there's an entire forum predicated on drug use (bluelight.ru) and it's been been up for almost a decade. I highly doubt that someone saying "I smoked pot" is going to jeopardize this forum... however, using annoying acronyms and round about ways of expressing our opinions muddles the context of the argument and makes it difficult to decipher.

But if these rules can't bend, then whatever. Another admin seems to see no problem with it (aperson)...

Rubin0 01-20-2011 11:56 PM

Re: Drugs
 
I never said that I thought drugs should be criminalized. I said I don't support drugs. I don't support the use of drugs. But I don't care whether it is legal to take drugs or not. People are going to do it regardless if it is legal or not. My main stance on the legal issue is that people who are caught under the influence while driving should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. People can do as many drugs as they want, I don't care. I keep those people as far out of my life as possible. This is why I fully support frequent drug testing for job applicants and employees, random highway stops, and general deterrence in situations where drug use is undesirable and even dangerous.

I personally would not want to hire a drug user or a person that has a history of DUI's. I think it says a lot about a person's character and I wouldn't want to risk sacrificing my business for someone who has a drug habit.

aperson 01-21-2011 12:20 AM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3400937)
Evidence? I can't believe I even have to provide evidence over something like this.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/pot_driving.htm

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...er.html?cat=71

http://missoulian.com/news/local/art...cc4c002e0.html

I will elaborate in a minute, I'm stuck on the phone with girlfriend aggro.

Here's a link to an actual scientific study:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...ng/driving.htm

Now, this is done by the US government so you know it's going to be biased toward wanting the outcome to be that yes, weed does make you a bad driver. Let's see what their abstract says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Research Abstract
Marijuana's effects on actual driving performance were assessed in a series of three studies wherein dose-effect relationships were measured in actual driving situations that progressively approached reality. The first was conducted on a highway closed to other traffic. Subjects (24) were treated on separate occasions with THC 100, 200 and 300 g/kg, and placebo. They performed a 22-km road tracking test beginning 30 and 90 minutes after smoking. Their lateral position variability increased significantly after each THC dose relative to placebo in a dose-dependent manner for two hours after smoking. The second study was conducted on a highway in the presence of other traffic. Subjects (16) were treated with the same THC doses as before. They performed a 64-km road tracking test preceded and followed by 16-km car following tests. Results confirmed those of the previous study. Car following performance was only slightly impaired. The third study was conducted in high-density urban traffic. Separate groups of 16 subjects were treated with 100 g/kg THC and placebo; and, ethanol (mean BAC .034 g%) and placebo. Alcohol impaired performance relative to placebo but subjects did not perceive it. THC did not impair driving performance yet the subjects thought it had. These studies show that THC in single inhaled doses up to 300 g/kg has significant, yet not dramatic, dose-related impairing effects on driving performance.

So you have three studies here. The first found a significant correlation, though the actual effect was quite small, read: Car following performance was only slightly impaired.. And in the third study in high-density urban traffic, and there was no significant difference between the stoned and the sober group. And I think their abstract conclusion is a pretty fair evaluation: These studies show that THC in single inhaled doses up to 300 g/kg has significant, yet not dramatic, dose-related impairing effects on driving performance.

Digging in to the studies that show significant differences, the first study shows that there was only a significant difference in one of the dependent variables they were measuring (standard deviation of lateral position), which has been previously shown to be highly sensitive to any mood / sedative changes. You can read it here.

In the second test, they also measured the standard deviation of lateral position and only got significant results in the highest dose case. Furthermore, they showed that as dose increased, the mean distance behind the car they were trying to precisely follow decreased. After adjusting for what they thought caused this variation, the results were statistically insignificant. You can view this article here.

And the third study, as I previously noted caused no significant difference.

So what we have here is a study from the government saying that marijuana usage and driving is barely statistically significant to the point that it isn't necessarily replicated between studies. And additionally, they claim that in each study where it is significant the effect size is minimal. So there is evidence from your own government department of transportation that it is questionable whether smoking and driving causes any impairment or not.

In the future, if you are going to cite sources I would recommend making them actual studies, like I provided, and not blog posts.

ichliebekase 01-21-2011 12:28 AM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ffraxis (Post 3400569)
Whats your opinion on drugs? All of us have done drugs at least once in our life (even if we didn't know that said substance is considered a drug) legal or illegal.

Do you support specific drugs? Why do you support these drugs? What are the pros/cons to this drug? Do you support drug groups, anti-drug groups? Do you support the business behind it or no?

Please, do tell.

Also in trying to support your point of view please pull some actual facts.

This is the OP. Everyone needs to get off their damn high horses and learn to accept someone else's opinion when it is asked for.

And you called rushy the troll.

blackout650 01-21-2011 12:33 AM

Re: Drugs
 
My opinion? Weed is a plant. God put plants on the ground. If it wasn't ment to be smoked then god wouldn't have put in the ground for us to smoke. Simple as that. It should be legalized. That's my opinion

aperson 01-21-2011 12:37 AM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ichliebekase (Post 3401234)
And you called rushy the troll.

If you post your opinions and someone asks you for evidence or justification you damn well better provide it or else you either a) don't believe in your position or b) don't believe in it firmly enough to have teased it out and thus shouldn't have strong beliefs either way. If you take route a, you are trolling. If you take route b yet you still have strong beliefs on the matter, you are ignorant and tunnel-visioned. So yes, I wanted to find out whether he was in camp a or camp b.

Also that's so cute that you underhandedly call me a troll when all I've done in this thread is post mountains of information that everyone who disagrees with seems to mysteriously gloss over.

MrGiggles 01-21-2011 12:42 AM

Re: Drugs
 
http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabi..._driving.shtml

Most studies I've seen cited consider marijuana to be much less of an impairment to driving than alcohol, but still an impairment. In addition, drunk and high is worse than either alone. I'm sure that as pressure for legalization increases and medical pot grows more widespread, more studies will reach a more solid conclusion, but until then it's best to err on the side of safety.

awein999 01-21-2011 12:48 AM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ichliebekase (Post 3401234)
This is the OP. Everyone needs to get off their damn high horses and learn to accept someone else's opinion when it is asked for.

And you called rushy the troll.

I would agree with the first two sentences if this wasn't in the critical thinking thread. In this thread your posts are taken very seriously. Don't post if you aren't willing to have your post scrutinized.

aperson 01-21-2011 12:52 AM

Re: Drugs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGiggles (Post 3401260)
http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabi..._driving.shtml

Most studies I've seen cited consider marijuana to be much less of an impairment to driving than alcohol, but still an impairment. In addition, drunk and high is worse than either alone. I'm sure that as pressure for legalization increases and medical pot grows more widespread, more studies will reach a more solid conclusion, but until then it's best to err on the side of safety.

Definitely. We're never going to see widespread research done on it until it enters the medical domain. Since statistical significance seems to waver in and out between different studies it's obvious that we haven't gathered enough of a mountain of research to be certain either way. As such, it's irresponsible to drive around stoned. However, anyone who says that you shouldn't drive stoned because it impairs your driving is lying. They should be saying that you shouldn't drive stoned because there is the possibility that it impairs your driving. There is a big difference between the two.


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